[Abortion Thread] A Matter of Choice (NEW POLL!)

[Ifreann]

You're the ones insisting we use the same terms for a single cell as we use for an 11 year old.

Yeah. Like we use adult to refer to peoples from 18 to 65 and old from 65 to however long we last. That's because most peoples just consider the three "ages" of man and don't feel the need to bother with pointless technicality of terms when talking normally with other peoples.

Most people have no problem with using specifics when the situation calls for it, because most people aren't trying to ban abortion.

[Alcala-Cordel]

I thought I was being clear about the difference when I linked 2 articles explaining that infancy is the stage after birth, but I guess not.

Interesting that you didn't mention that earlier.


A fetus isn't even a baby, it's the thing that can eventually develop into one. Hell, it takes 6 weeks for the brain to start working and even then it can't really think for months.

Is the fertilized egg at zero weeks a fetus?

Is its development after eight months a fetus?

Technically a fetus starts at about 8 weeks IIRC. For the sake of consistency that's probably a good thing to bring up.

[The Black Forrest]

Trying to equate a fetus with an infant takes a lot of mental gymnastics, and it doesn't change the fact that they are not the same.

It... It really doesn't. A fetus is a name used to refer to a young child. An infant is a name used to refer to a young child. Peoples are going to use the terms interchangably.

I'm also gonna stand by my claim that not too many people call fetuses infants, and those who do are almost always trying to mislead people on abortion.

We literally threw a party two weeks ago to celebrate a colleague's paternity leave.
Guess how everyone referred "the fetus" as? "The baby", "the kiddo", "the little one" and "choupi"; all those same words we had been using ever since he told us that his wife was pregnant.
Guess how no one referred "the fetus" as? "The fetus". Wanna know why? Because we're normal human beings who're able to recognize other human beings as human beings, even if they're still currently in their mother's womb.

People using things wrong all the time. People make science declarations which are wrong all the time(especially these days).

A fetus is simply a label for a stage of development. You say fetus and nobody is thinking about a child who is running around.

Calling the fetus a child, the unborn, etc., is nothing more then trying to make an emotional argument.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Trying to equate a fetus with an infant takes a lot of mental gymnastics, and it doesn't change the fact that they are not the same.

It... It really doesn't. A fetus is a name used to refer to a young child. An infant is a name used to refer to a young child. Peoples are going to use the terms interchangably.

I, too, see a toddler and call it a "fetus".

[Michel Meilleur]

I thought I was being clear about the difference when I linked 2 articles explaining that infancy is the stage after birth, but I guess not.

Yeah. That's still you bitching about peoples using a term that means "very young child" to refer to a very young child.

Interesting that you didn't mention that earlier.

That I didn't mention what? That my French colleague was speaking to me in French? Or that different languages have terms very similar to infant? Because I think you could have guessed the former from my username and I literally mentioned the later in my first post.

Or, you know, it's just that it's colloquially used to refer to very young children (especially for non-anglo-saxons for who it is as a closer equivalent to native terms).

A fetus isn't even a baby, it's the thing that can eventually develop into one. Hell, it takes 6 weeks for the brain to start working and even then it can't really think for months.

Again, not interested in your personal mental gymnastics to arbitrarily deny children's humanity until they reach a certain age.
Everyone I ever knew who was pregnant or had a pregnant partner has always acknowledged the humanity of their kids and referred to them as kids even before their birth. Never heard the term fetus outside of talking about echographies. At this point, I'm pretty convinced you're just taking the piss because if you ever interacted with one or the other in your daily life, you would know that much for sure.

[The Black Forrest]

Did anyone else have the feeling of joy and excitement come over you Friday morning when you heard the news? That feeling of pure happiness. That was what it was like while watching the news. Especially after the crap they passed the Wednesday prior with the RiGhT tO oPeN cArRy.

Ok you owned the libs.

What are you going to do now abortion is gone?

[Thepeopl]

If someone is terminating their pregnancy after 26 weeks they have a damn good reason for it.

The point is there is no biological difference between an infant and fetus.

Lava and magma are equally as similar ones out and ones in.

Nope. Definitely different
https://theconversation.com/this-is-wha ... rth-117186

[Fartsniffage]

Did anyone else have the feeling of joy and excitement come over you Friday morning when you heard the news? That feeling of pure happiness. That was what it was like while watching the news. Especially after the crap they passed the Wednesday prior with the RiGhT tO oPeN cArRy.

Ok you owned the libs.

What are you going to do now abortion is gone?

He's trying to primary Jamie Raskin. I shit you not.

[The Black Forrest]

Ok you owned the libs.

What are you going to do now abortion is gone?

He's trying to primary Jamie Raskin. I shit you not.

No kidding. That’s funny and his comments make a little more sense now.

[Godular]

He's trying to primary Jamie Raskin. I shit you not.

No kidding. That’s funny and his comments make a little more sense now.

He tried to post a link to his campaign website around page 30-40.

[Alcala-Cordel]

I thought I was being clear about the difference when I linked 2 articles explaining that infancy is the stage after birth, but I guess not.

Yeah. That's still you bitching about peoples using a term that means "very young child" to refer to a very young child.

Interesting that you didn't mention that earlier.

That I didn't mention what? That my French colleague was speaking to me in French? Or that different languages have terms very similar to infant? Because I think you could have guessed the former from my username and I literally mentioned the later in my first post.

Or, you know, it's just that it's colloquially used to refer to very young children (especially for non-anglo-saxons for who it is as a closer equivalent to native terms).

A fetus isn't even a baby, it's the thing that can eventually develop into one. Hell, it takes 6 weeks for the brain to start working and even then it can't really think for months.

Again, not interested in your personal mental gymnastics to arbitrarily deny children's humanity until they reach a certain age.
Everyone I ever knew who was pregnant or had a pregnant partner has always acknowledged the humanity of their kids and referred to them as kids even before their birth. Never heard the term fetus outside of talking about echographies. At this point, I'm pretty convinced you're just taking the piss because if you ever interacted with one or the other in your daily life, you would know that much for sure.

You haven't written anything in this wall of text beyond personal stories and insults. None of that is substantial. A fetus is by definition not an infant. Biologically it is not developed, and unless you provide some sort of evidence to the contrary you might as well stop.

There really isn't much else to say.

[Bear Stearns]

Did anyone else have the feeling of joy and excitement come over you Friday morning when you heard the news? That feeling of pure happiness. That was what it was like while watching the news. Especially after the crap they passed the Wednesday prior with the RiGhT tO oPeN cArRy.

not that i'm very invested in this case, but i'll bet you that clarence thomas definitely cracked a beer afterwards

[Michel Meilleur]

You haven't written anything in this wall of text beyond personal stories and insults. None of that is substantial. A fetus is by definition not an infant. Biologically it is not developed, and unless you provide some sort of evidence to the contrary you might as well stop.

There really isn't much else to say.

There really isn't much to say to someone being pointedly pedantic and obtuse when complaining about peoples using a word to refer to young kids to instead refer to slightly younger (by a couple of months) kids, indeed.
No one in real life would raise an eyebrow over it (and indeed no one does) but for some reason you want to raise hell for it on a forum.

[Thomasi]

Did anyone else have the feeling of joy and excitement come over you Friday morning when you heard the news? That feeling of pure happiness. That was what it was like while watching the news. Especially after the crap they passed the Wednesday prior with the RiGhT tO oPeN cArRy.

Ok you owned the libs.

What are you going to do now abortion is gone?

Make sure I don't use protection during hookups to get a baby. It's a great ruling for men because we aren't at risk of women killing our babies.

[The Black Forrest]

You haven't written anything in this wall of text beyond personal stories and insults. None of that is substantial. A fetus is by definition not an infant. Biologically it is not developed, and unless you provide some sort of evidence to the contrary you might as well stop.

There really isn't much else to say.

There really isn't much to say to someone being pointedly pedantic and obtuse when complaining about peoples using a word to refer to young kids to instead refer to slightly younger (by a couple of months) kids, indeed.
No one in real life would raise an eyebrow over it (and indeed no one does) but for some reason you want to raise hell for it on a forum.

Then why are you responding?

[The Black Forrest]

Ok you owned the libs.

What are you going to do now abortion is gone?

Make sure I don't use protection during hookups to get a baby. It's a great ruling for men because we aren't at risk of women killing our babies.

Oh so nothing…..Not surprised.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Ok you owned the libs.

What are you going to do now abortion is gone?

Make sure I don't use protection during hookups to get a baby. It's a great ruling for men because we aren't at risk of women killing our babies.

that’s messed up.

[Alcala-Cordel]

You haven't written anything in this wall of text beyond personal stories and insults. None of that is substantial. A fetus is by definition not an infant. Biologically it is not developed, and unless you provide some sort of evidence to the contrary you might as well stop.

There really isn't much else to say.

There really isn't much to say to someone being pointedly pedantic and obtuse when complaining about peoples using a word to refer to young kids to instead refer to slightly younger (by a couple of months) kids, indeed.
No one in real life would raise an eyebrow over it (and indeed no one does) but for some reason you want to raise hell for it on a forum.

Really? It seems like you have a lot to say about it. Unfortunately you still haven't said anything substantial. Why not explain why you think a fetus is a person and provide information about them to back yourself up?

[Galloism]

Did anyone else have the feeling of joy and excitement come over you Friday morning when you heard the news? That feeling of pure happiness. That was what it was like while watching the news. Especially after the crap they passed the Wednesday prior with the RiGhT tO oPeN cArRy.

Do you need help?

It's weird because he's almost directly opposite me.

Like, I thought Bruen was a good decision and I liked it, but I recoiled at Dobbs.

[Thepeopl]

https://neurosciencenews.com/racism-coe ... rth-20907/

And that's why the nine judges are in favour of banning abortion.

[Fahran]

Make sure I don't use protection during hookups to get a baby. It's a great ruling for men because we aren't at risk of women killing our babies.

Given most of the women who get abortions are probably single women in their twenties, I have the sneaking suspicion their boyfriends or lovers often look rather favorably on their choice to get an abortion. Because it means there's no risk that they'll have to pay child support at some point. Men who engage in hookup culture and lack moral scruples on the issue probably have a similar opinion. As do businesses that don't want to dish out money during maternity leave when its cheaper to just cover abortion.

As for protection, I would recommend learning to use condoms correctly, contemplating having your lady friend get familiar with the pill or a IUD, and giving any male-focused contraceptives that come out a good chance. This will make the risk of pregnancy very low. Do you know what'll make it zero given you're a man? Not having sex until you're ready to be a father.

[Fahran]

https://neurosciencenews.com/racism-coercion-birth-20907/

And that's why the nine judges are in favour of banning abortion.

It wasn't nine judges... It was a 6 to 3 decision.

[Islamic Essarn]

I thought I was being clear about the difference when I linked 2 articles explaining that infancy is the stage after birth, but I guess not.

Interesting that you didn't mention that earlier.


A fetus isn't even a baby, it's the thing that can eventually develop into one. Hell, it takes 6 weeks for the brain to start working and even then it can't really think for months.

Is the fertilized egg at zero weeks a fetus?

Is its development after eight months a fetus?

On your first question : no, it is a zygote or an embryo.

On your second question : no, at that point it is still an embryo.

To explain : a zygote is what it is called while it is leaving the fallopian tube. An embryo is what its called after it has left the fallopian tube but before ten week. A foetus is after ten weeks.

[Fahran]

The only argument you are offering is that a fetus isn't a person, which requires a consensus on what is a person.

Yes, and that's still more effective than the argument you've offered.

Presumably, you wouldn't permit a person to murder or abandon an infant if they had no other means of exerting their bodily autonomy, though you may correct me if I misunderstood your position on filicide. I'm not certain any ethically or legally minded person can accept a contrary view on the issue though. If we ascribe personhood to fetuses, there's no reason this same principle cannot be applied to fetuses. It's thus necessary to deny fetal personhood.

A consensus that rather obviously doesn't exist because there are people who argue a fetus is a person. I'm quite happy to debate at what point a person becomes, and stops being, a person. But for me that isn't the fundamental problem with abortion.

Except it is. For the reasons I explained above. The argument you made cannot work on an ethical level, and I say this because the argument you have been making is an ethical argument rather than a legal one. The analogy above effectively puts you in the position of either supporting filicide in certain circumstances or opposing abortion. The only way to get around that is to grapple with personhood and rights - which you're mostly avoiding at this point to avoid a bad analogy made by pro-life folks related to slavery. At least that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting.

I do like it when people tell me what I do, or do not, believe.

Well then, I'm glad to be of service.

I can't tell other people what arguments to make or how to make them, only present arguments myself. I have been arguing legal concepts, specifically the balance of rights and the available means to balance them. I'll admit I'm not perfect about keeping my arguments to this, but it is what I try to do.

The argument you presented earlier was an ethical argument about rights. Not a legal argument about rights. We're discussing a right to bodily autonomy with illustrative examples. We're not debating the SCOTUS's interpretations of due process and the 14th Amendment through the last century. Mind you, I'm open to having a legal discussion on this subject, but our conversation hasn't really alluded to the law all that much.

That the state does things doesn't mean I agree with the state doing them. My view of how government should work does not mean that government does work that way. Which should be rather obvious given that I have been in this thread arguing that abortion should be legal while a number of new laws have come into force across the US making abortion illegal.

It's not obvious. I'll go with an extreme example for illustrative purposes. Do you believe murder, torture, and marital rape should be illegal? If so, you support using state power to enforce certain ethical precepts. I'm pointing this out because your argument here reminds me quite a lot of "moral nihilists" who have strong opinions about policy. You can perhaps claim to occupy the position you occupy, but I think it requires a lot of cognitive dissonance to hold intrinsically clashing positions like that.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

https://neurosciencenews.com/racism-coercion-birth-20907/

And that's why the nine judges are in favour of banning abortion.

no it isn’t lol

did any of them actually write about or mention that subject?