Us vs Them: A moral dillemma

[Asardia]

Let's say you live in a world known as Earth 541-A. On Earth 541-A, there exists a small city-state known as Elkville. Elkville is an isolated city-state whose citenry is hated by the rest of the world. You are the President of Elkville. You have been briefed that the entire world is forming a coalition and planning an all out assault on your city-state. There is no way your little city-state can survive the might of the world's militaries. There is also no means of diplomacy. The entire world is united against you and they are unwilling to negotiate. The only acceptable option for them is to crush Elkville.

However, there is an option for self-defense.

Elkville has a stockpile of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. Due to the threat the outside world has posed for your nation, your predecessors have researched into means of protection. However, this same means of protection has also led to the current coalition.

As President of Elkville, you have the capability to wipe out every outside nation using those weapons. But, in doing so, you will also kill millions of innocent people in the process.

Here's the dilemma: Is it morally right to nuke every nation on earth to protect your people? Is it ok to kill hundreds of millions of people to save a nation home to just a few million? Is there another option? You've tried diplomacy and no one was willing to listen. Would a preemptive strike be the way to go? Wouldn't that give the world justification to occupy Elkville?

If you decide to nuke just a few of the strongest nations, wouldn't they still be able to eventually retaliate with stronger force? If you were able to keep the global coalition from attacking, would that just push the problem to later generations of Elkvillians?

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This is a problem that I find similar to the trolley dilemma. I would personally authorize the usage of nuclear weapons to keep my people safe. I believe that you need to do whatever is necessary for self-defense. If diplomacy doesn't work, then the only option is to at least die trying to protect Elkville.

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It is not morally acceptable to destroy 99% of the world, even in self-defense, BUT as the leader of Elkville, my responsibility is to convince the rest of the world that I absolutely will destroy them. It's a game of chicken you have to play right up to the edge of the cliff.

[Laeden]

This is yet another variation, albeit a creative one, of the trolley situation

[ImperialRussia]

Yes because to evolve,adapt, and survive during times of long periods of war.

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This is yet another variation, albeit a creative one, of the trolley situation

The trolley problem is a question of clean hands vs. utility, you don't know the one person on the track or the five. This scenario though introduces personal loyalty and duty.

If I were facing the trolley problem with my wife on one track and five strangers on the other, I'd let the trolley kill the five. I'd let it kill 10, 20. There is a number sufficiently high as to override my selfishness but I don't know what that number is. And at that point I'm no longer a rational agent anyway but I'm operating off gut feeling.

The OP though has presented us with a situation of "us" vs. the entire world and at that point you have to start wondering if "we" are really in the right if every other human on Earth wants to destroy us. Or if it's not the case that every human wants that, just all the governments of the world, it's not acceptable to destroy everyone else as collateral damage.

[Tinhampton]

UsVsTh3m was a pretty neat website with a lot of funny things... then they closed. In February 2015. God, why do I remember all of this stuff?

Why does everyone hate Elkville?

[Nevertopia]

Let's say you live in a world known as Earth 541-A. On Earth 541-A, there exists a small city-state known as Elkville. Elkville is an isolated city-state whose citenry is hated by the rest of the world. You are the President of Elkville. You have been briefed that the entire world is forming a coalition and planning an all out assault on your city-state. There is no way your little city-state can survive the might of the world's militaries. There is also no means of diplomacy. The entire world is united against you and they are unwilling to negotiate. The only acceptable option for them is to crush Elkville.

However, there is an option for self-defense.

Elkville has a stockpile of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. Due to the threat the outside world has posed for your nation, your predecessors have researched into means of protection. However, this same means of protection has also led to the current coalition.

As President of Elkville, you have the capability to wipe out every outside nation using those weapons. But, in doing so, you will also kill millions of innocent people in the process.

Here's the dilemma: Is it morally right to nuke every nation on earth to protect your people? Is it ok to kill hundreds of millions of people to save a nation home to just a few million? Is there another option? You've tried diplomacy and no one was willing to listen. Would a preemptive strike be the way to go? Wouldn't that give the world justification to occupy Elkville?

If you decide to nuke just a few of the strongest nations, wouldn't they still be able to eventually retaliate with stronger force? If you were able to keep the global coalition from attacking, would that just push the problem to later generations of Elkvillians?

---

This is a problem that I find similar to the trolley dilemma. I would personally authorize the usage of nuclear weapons to keep my people safe. I believe that you need to do whatever is necessary for self-defense. If diplomacy doesn't work, then the only option is to at least die trying to protect Elkville.

As youve described, the only reason you're being attacked is because of your nuclear stockpile and your lack of multinational oversight. You're basically North Korea.

The right answer is to de-escalate the situation by disarming your nuclear arsenal and inviting the international community to oversee the process. You only got to this problem because you have nukes and no friends, so the right answer is to make friends, have friendly or at least non-confrontational relationships with other countries and no nukes.

[Radiatia]

I would destroy the rest of the world without a moment of hesitation.

The idea that trying to keep the larger number of humans alive is the moral thing to do is based on the fallacy that human life has any inherent value. The only truth in the universe is kill or be killed. Not only that, less humans means less competition for resources, higher living standards for the survivors and less risk of the human race immediately turning back into the rat utopia that it is today.

There's no such thing as morality. Your life has no inherent value and neither does that of your species. If you are not willing to kill, then you deserve to be killed.

[Bombadil]

Why does everyone hate Elkville?

I mean.. this is the question.

I think I’d go through a little quiet time of introspection first as to why the entire world hates us, probably come to the realisation we’re complete assholes, and blow the world up regardless.

Cos that’s what assholes do.

[Infected Mushroom]

I would immediately deploy the weapons. Absolutely no hesitation.

If every other nation is so steadfastly united in their determination to destroy us, then we must strike first and before our advantage is diluted over time (either by them stealing our tech, coming up with countermeasures, or developing similar weapons to ensure MAD).

The rest of the world will pay the ultimate price for their irrational hatred/prejudice against Elkville.

Glory to Elkville!

[Ethel mermania]

If there is another way I try and find it, including just surrender before it starts. if no quarter is given and they refuse to accept our surrender, we launch every non elkvilliian dies.

I assume every elkvillian soon thereafter dies as no earth nation is self sufficient. But fuck those assholes.

[Infected Mushroom]

Long live Eldia.

All hail Queen Historia.

The age of Marleyan dominion shall come to an end at once!

[Wallowis]

No. This also isn't similar to the trolley dilemma at all. It's completely different. If the nuclear weapons are what lead to the coalition, I'd dismantle them and unconditionally surrender. Like, seriously? Did noone think of immediate unconditional surrender! That way none of my citizens will die, and noone else dies either.

[Nevertopia]

Long live Eldia.

All hail Queen Historia.

The age of Marleyan dominion shall come to an end at once!

*rumbling intensifies*

On a serious note though, this moral dilemma is one of the things the real world UN handles/prevents. Being part of the international community solves this, either by way of heavy sanctions like with Russia or by de-escalation through UN oversight like with the investigation of Iran's nuclear program. It should never get to this point where an isolated country is powerful enough to threaten the world with unfettered nuclear proliferation. Look at what happened to Russia, they became the aggressors and tried to wave their nuclear dick around and what happened? They got sanctioned to the ground that would make the USSR blush.

[Ethel mermania]

Long live Eldia.

All hail Queen Historia.

The age of Marleyan dominion shall come to an end at once!

*rumbling intensifies*

On a serious note though, this moral dilemma is one of the things the real world UN handles/prevents. Being part of the international community solves this, either by way of heavy sanctions like with Russia or by de-escalation through UN oversight like with the investigation of Iran's nuclear program. It should never get to this point where an isolated country is powerful enough to threaten the world with unfettered nuclear proliferation. Look at what happened to Russia, they became the aggressors and tried to wave their nuclear dick around and what happened? They got sanctioned to the ground that would make the USSR blush.

Nah, if this were sent to the UN elkville would declare support for the PRC invading Taiwan, and with the Chinese veto, we be fine.

[Sky Reavers]

Gather resources and supplies, evacuate everyone to a safe distance and then just use smallest nuke to destroy the empty Elkville. Then resettle elsewhere, perhaps to different places. It's not like Elksville people look different to other.

A fake nuclear weapon accident. No one has to die.

[Kerwa]

Just do it anyway because LOL.

[The Blaatschapen]

UsVsTh3m was a pretty neat website with a lot of funny things... then they closed. In February 2015. God, why do I remember all of this stuff?

Why does everyone hate Elkville?

Elkville is not being held deer by the rest of the world.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

I would… not kill 99% of the global population? I feel like that’s a pretty easy choice. y’know, the world-destroying weapons are probably part of the reason everyone hates us.

[The Holy Therns]

Having the weapons is not worth more than the existence of the rest of the world.

[Wallowis]

I would… not kill 99% of the global population? I feel like that’s a pretty easy choice. y’know, the world-destroying weapons are probably part of the reason everyone hates us.

It also says so in the prompt. Honestly, when it says I've tried negotiating, I obviously haven't tried dismantling the nukes, because we still have them, meaning we haven't tried everything, and by dismantling the nukes we automatically get everything we want. It's basically
"We need nukes to protect ourselves"
"We wouldn't need nukes to protect ourselves if we didn't have nukes"

[Aymes]

I would exterminate them all and save my people.

[Ifreann]

Destroy our WMDs and surrender. I'll presumably be executed as a war criminal or something, and my nation will presumably be subjected to military occupation, but my people will be alive to resist and have a world to live in when they win their freedom.

[North Korea Choson]

Blow em Up

[Thethen]

I’d say no, not only because it wouldn’t be nice, but also because it might lead to Elksville starving to death because no one’s importing food.