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Is it genocide?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What’s your take on the Imperial policies?

It is not genocide of any kind
29
20%
It is “cultural genocide,” but not a regular “genocide”
65
45%
It is “genocide” flat out
45
31%
Other
5
3%
 
Total votes : 144

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Infected Mushroom
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Is it genocide?

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:06 pm

Please consider the following hypothetical:

The Empire would like to promote a singular national identity. This is because throughout history, such countries are easier to govern, less likely to Balkanize, and experience less strife with ethnic and cultural conflicts (at least several generations down the road).

Education was previously unregulated. Many teachers (at both public and private schools) taught the students about the various ethnic and cultural groups within the Empire. A large number of holidays (related to various district cultural practices) was also recognized by the state. Some religious practices were recognized.

The new government wishes to do the following thing:
1. All school curriculums (public and private) must emphasize a singular Imperial identity and discourage ethnic distinctions. It is now forbidden to teach students about the history of these other traditions in a classroom environment.
2. All holidays will remain but no additional culturally recognized ones will be added. Existing holidays will all be formally renamed with secular, pro Imperial titles. These new names will be enforced.
3. The state will no longer recognize special religious practices affiliated with those cultural groups.


The UN and some watchdog groups do not like this and have accused the Empire of committing “cultural genocide.” Many simply refer to it as “genocide” and already comparisons are being made to the concentration camps of WWII.

The Empire’s response is to re-iterate that it wishes to promote a singular national identity. It rejects the label of “cultural genocide”/“genocide” and asserts that all states play a role in shaping, guiding, and influencing the national identity of its citizenry.

Who do you think is right?

My view? It is not genocide of any kind. The term should be reserved for outright massacres, pogroms, and wars of extermination.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:52 am

The UN.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:58 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:The UN.

Yup. This is genocide.

Infected Mushroom wrote:My view? It is not genocide of any kind. The term should be reserved for outright massacres, pogroms, and wars of extermination.
Course you dont see it as genocide.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:02 am

I dont see this as genocide either. No one is getting killed or wiped out. Creating a unified cultural identity is part of any states educational process.

As described Its certainly repressive and authoritarian, but its not targeted mass murder
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Postby Equai » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:07 am

Cultural genocide is still a genocide. There is no cultural and regular genocide. It's all part of one umbrella term for genocide because it's intentional wipe out of the one's cultural identity. Person who coined the word genocide wanted and fought to have cultural genocide be included in the UN charger about genocide but main imperial powers at that time didn't wanted to ratify that resolution because they did the same cultural genocide of their native population (Canada, USA, Australia).

As long it's intentional systematic action to commit a crime against a whole nation, being that to physically kill them or culturally kill then it's still a genocide. Gatekeeping genocide will only create a new genocide under the covers of re-education and cultural assimilation.
Last edited by Equai on Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:10 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:The UN.


I’m approaching it from a more essentialist point of view. Where we look past a formal body’s definition/declaration of things and focus on whether it’s actually/essentially the thing.

So the Supreme Court could rule that black is blue and blue is black but be essentially/fundamentally wrong, it’s authoritative status notwithstanding.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:12 am

Is this thread just IM trying to defend China?
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:13 am

Equai wrote:Cultural genocide is still a genocide. There is no cultural and regular genocide. It's all part of one umbrella term for genocide because it's intentional wipe out of the one's cultural identity. Person who coined the word genocide wanted and fought to have cultural genocide be included in the UN charger about genocide but main imperial powers at that time didn't wanted to ratify that resolution because they did the same cultural genocide of their native population (Canada, USA, Australia).


So in simply changing how things are taught in school, the recognition/phrasing of a few statutory holidays… you can step into territory comparable to Hitler’s mass murder of millions of ethnic minorities?

It just seems like the term has been diluted beyond its reasonable interpretation.

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Postby Equai » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:15 am

Ifreann wrote:Is this thread just IM trying to defend China?

Not just China. Cultural genocide it's committed by many other nations, such as Canada, Turkey, Australia and the USA. This thread can be interpreted by some as the genocide gatekeeping and downplaying how nation can be killed without firing a single bullet
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Postby South Olpen » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:16 am

Ifreann wrote:Is this thread just IM trying to defend China?

Can't be China, at least not in good faith. They actually do have camps for Uhygurs.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:17 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Equai wrote:Cultural genocide is still a genocide. There is no cultural and regular genocide. It's all part of one umbrella term for genocide because it's intentional wipe out of the one's cultural identity. Person who coined the word genocide wanted and fought to have cultural genocide be included in the UN charger about genocide but main imperial powers at that time didn't wanted to ratify that resolution because they did the same cultural genocide of their native population (Canada, USA, Australia).


So in simply changing how things are taught in school, the recognition/phrasing of a few statutory holidays… you can step into territory comparable to Hitler’s mass murder of millions of ethnic minorities?

It just seems like the term has been diluted beyond its reasonable interpretation.

The new government wishes to do the following thing:
1. All school curriculums (public and private) must emphasize a singular Imperial identity and discourage ethnic distinctions. It is now forbidden to teach students about the history of these other traditions in a classroom environment.
2. All holidays will remain but no additional culturally recognized ones will be added. Existing holidays will all be formally renamed with secular, pro Imperial titles. These new names will be enforced.
3. The state will no longer recognize special religious practices affiliated with those cultural groups.
This goes beyond "simplying changing" how things are taught in school, you are literally erasing cultural traditions and forbidding the teaching of peoples own history as well as changing their holidays to erase their identity and cultural backgrounds, in order to make them the "right" kind of people for this precious empire of yours. Cut the shit IM, this is nothing more than a dolled up attempt to justify China's bullshit towards its minority populations and any other authoritarian states or beliefs you wana fanboy over.

EDIT: As someone from NI i should just stay out of this thread as i can tell this shit is gona piss me off.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:19 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Equai wrote:Cultural genocide is still a genocide. There is no cultural and regular genocide. It's all part of one umbrella term for genocide because it's intentional wipe out of the one's cultural identity. Person who coined the word genocide wanted and fought to have cultural genocide be included in the UN charger about genocide but main imperial powers at that time didn't wanted to ratify that resolution because they did the same cultural genocide of their native population (Canada, USA, Australia).


So in simply changing how things are taught in school, the recognition/phrasing of a few statutory holidays… you can step into territory comparable to Hitler’s mass murder of millions of ethnic minorities?

It just seems like the term has been diluted beyond its reasonable interpretation.

What you've described is a deliberate effort to destroy all other cultures and ethnicities except Chinese. Obviously that's genocide.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:22 am

Cultural genocide is still genocide, so.
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:25 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Cultural genocide is still genocide, so.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:26 am

Ifreann wrote:Is this thread just IM trying to defend China?

As a FYI, you are not the only person who wondered this
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Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:27 am

Ethel mermania wrote:I dont see this as genocide either. No one is getting killed or wiped out. Creating a unified cultural identity is part of any states educational process.

As described Its certainly repressive and authoritarian, but its not targeted mass murder

No. This is a baseline understanding of genocide but the term does not just cover mass murder. Genocide is the collective term referring to the destruction of people groups. Ethnic cleansing, mass murder, forced assimilation, and forced removal are all genocidal and carrying out one action almost certainly means the other actions were carried out to some extent or were meant to be.

Ifreann wrote:Is this thread just IM trying to defend China?

And Canada probably.
Last edited by Heloin on Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Equai » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:30 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Equai wrote:Cultural genocide is still a genocide. There is no cultural and regular genocide. It's all part of one umbrella term for genocide because it's intentional wipe out of the one's cultural identity. Person who coined the word genocide wanted and fought to have cultural genocide be included in the UN charger about genocide but main imperial powers at that time didn't wanted to ratify that resolution because they did the same cultural genocide of their native population (Canada, USA, Australia).


So in simply changing how things are taught in school, the recognition/phrasing of a few statutory holidays… you can step into territory comparable to Hitler’s mass murder of millions of ethnic minorities?

It just seems like the term has been diluted beyond its reasonable interpretation.

Holocaust wasn't the only genocide. No one is downplaying it's importance and scale of atrocities tho. Holocaust was horrible horrible thing that should never be forgotten. However, saying that killing an identity of culture is nothing because no one is killed is the same as defending prison slave labor because they aren't born into slavery. It's very flawed and easily manipulative statement. Cultural genocide is a real thing and and have happened but more often then a physical genocide. If it's not your culture you are teaching then you have no right to edit, paraphrase or change it. White culture has no rights to be above other cultures. No culture can be above other cultures and no one has right to assimilate you into the culture you aren't part of unless you do it willingly.

Take a look at Ireland. A Celtic nation very known for its amazing culture and polytheistic heritage. Amazing Gaelic language. British occupied it and did everything they could until less then 4% of population known gaelic. All in span of fee generations. It's sad that someone's native tongue is almost extinct. That is a cultural genocide. You didn't killed people but you killed their history, their legacy, their culture... which equally as based as killing people.
Now if Irish people were brutally massacred (which they also did but not in the numbers of the Holocaust) and killed, instead of culturally killed, to that extent that they can't even speak their native tongue then you look at the genocide that needs a new name because of its scope of a death toll.
As long something is intentionally and systematic in order to kill someone's sense of identity then it's a genocide, physical or cultural. It's genocide nonetheless.
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Postby Sacred Earth » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:33 am

This, if my memory serves me right, is ethnocide, not genocide. Less scary word.

The imperial method is pretty harsh, but I don’t want to call it genocide, because certain associations are associated with this word.
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Postby New haven america » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:35 am

You know, if you have to ask if something's genocide, it probably is.
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Postby Perikuresu » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:37 am

Look, standardising some stuff like language (i.e., having a single common language) and national (not ethnic) identity is probably a good idea IF IT DOES NOT COME AT THE EXPENSE OF MINORITY/OTHER CULTURES

So, on to addressing your points
1. All school curriculums (public and private) must emphasize a singular Imperial identity and discourage ethnic distinctions. It is now forbidden to teach students about the history of these other traditions in a classroom environment.

Number one is essentially trying to wipe out ethnic identities of other culture groups and their history, I don't oppose having a single uniting national identity as a rallying point, but surely we are able to have both national and ethnic identity exist at the same time. In diaspora communities across Australia (and I feel like it's the same situation in NZ, USA and Canada) we often identify ourselves as Greek, Chinese, Indian, Croatian, etc., yet we're still proud to call ourselves Australians.

The history of other ethnic groups is just as important as the history of the main ethnic group of the hypothetical empire. These people have contributed to the building of and the shaping of the identity of the country and have every right to have their stories and contributions told, spread around, and known.

2. All holidays will remain but no additional culturally recognized ones will be added. Existing holidays will all be formally renamed with secular, pro Imperial titles. These new names will be enforced.

I don't really care about the names of the holidays, but I would prefer it if it was it's traditional name. My opinion here is that as long as people are allowed to freely practice their (traditional, UNTOUCHED BY GOVERNMENT) culture during the holidays (and any days) that is fine by my books.

3. The state will no longer recognize special religious practices affiliated with those cultural groups.

Like it or not, religion is a big part of some cultures, and stamping it out is essentially killing a part of that culture. Also I get huge Tibet vibes from this question. I have a strong feeling that this thread is used to justify the actions of authoritarian states in stamping out minority cultures.

But then as with every single one of my posts on IM threads, it'll get prompty ignored :p
Last edited by Perikuresu on Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:38 am

Sacred Earth wrote:This, if my memory serves me right, is ethnocide, not genocide. Less scary word.

The imperial method is pretty harsh, but I don’t want to call it genocide, because certain associations are associated with this word.

It’s called genocide. Raphael Lemkin the creator of the word genocide also suggested Ethnocide to mean exactly the same thing, it wasn’t adopted and is not held to any high regard in the field of genocide studies.
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Postby Kerwa » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:42 am

Literally is the point of all government run schools.

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Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:45 am

Kerwa wrote:Literally is the point of all government run schools.

This is the worst understanding of schools you could admit to having.
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Postby Sacred Earth » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:46 am

Heloin wrote:
Sacred Earth wrote:This, if my memory serves me right, is ethnocide, not genocide. Less scary word.

The imperial method is pretty harsh, but I don’t want to call it genocide, because certain associations are associated with this word.

It’s called genocide. Raphael Lemkin the creator of the word genocide also suggested Ethnocide to mean exactly the same thing, it wasn’t adopted and is not held to any high regard in the field of genocide studies.


Well, let's separate these things, because murders and artificially accelerated decline of cultures are not the same thing.

It is the same only if one recognizes the intrinsic value of cultures and unique identities, with the existence of which I am inclined to disagree. Those people in, let's say, 90 years are unlikely to suffer from the fact that they have lost the identity of the old people and are now Imperials.
Last edited by Sacred Earth on Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The North German Confederacy- » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:49 am

To promote a single cultural identity isn't genocide
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