A Matter of Pride

[Equai]

Yeah, it’s funny… it’s almost like gender reassignment surgery doesn’t immediately solve every issue that comes along with being trans and that they still experience a substantial amount of transphobia and trauma that makes them more likely to commit suicide…

Well what makes the particular study I picked important is where it was carried out: Sweden. Sweden is quite possibly the most accepting, gender-affirming country on the planet.

Also, if alleged persecution is the root cause of suicide, wouldn't you expect similarly high rates among other victim groups, whose persecution has gone far beyond "misgendering"? If we just look at trends in black suicide in America, we can immediately see there is no correlation: whites commit suicide at twice the rate of blacks. In fact, the trend seems to be better conditions and privileges indicate higher rates of suicide. We humans evolved in an adverse environment that was essentially trying to kill us. When we are threatened our survival instincts kick in and we just try to stay alive. We generally only consider self-harm when there is little adversity. If prejudice truly is the cause of the depressingly high suicide rates among trans people, it is an anomaly. Again, the answer to suicide isn't to control other people's speech, but for people suffering such thoughts to seek professional help.

It's actually Iceland that is the most accepting.
Point this stands, the study is conducted from late last century to early 2000s. It's a very old study in an case. ADDITIONALLY, just because Swedish legislature is accepting to trans people and their cause that doesn't mean that people are. You fail to understand that transphobia is still a big issues even in the most progressive countries. Post or pre-op we will still be harassed and killed.

[Red Lake Circle]

Yeah, it’s funny… it’s almost like gender reassignment surgery doesn’t immediately solve every issue that comes along with being trans and that they still experience a substantial amount of transphobia and trauma that makes them more likely to commit suicide…

Well what makes the particular study I picked important is where it was carried out: Sweden. Sweden is quite possibly the most accepting, gender-affirming country on the planet.

Also, if alleged persecution is the root cause of suicide, wouldn't you expect similarly high rates among other victim groups, whose persecution has gone far beyond "misgendering"? If we just look at trends in black suicide in America, we can immediately see there is no correlation: whites commit suicide at twice the rate of blacks. In fact, the trend seems to be better conditions and privileges indicate higher rates of suicide. We humans evolved in an adverse environment that was essentially trying to kill us. When we are threatened our survival instincts kick in and we just try to stay alive. We generally only consider self-harm when there is little adversity. If prejudice truly is the cause of the depressingly high suicide rates among trans people, it is an anomaly. Again, the answer to suicide isn't to control other people's speech, but for people suffering such thoughts to seek professional help.

Counterpoint; the study you picked literally talks about how the solution to these issues lied in further acceptance of trans people. Also, with the evidence from the adolescent studies (which not only compared trans youth to the general population, but to youth in other categories of treatment) suggests that there is a correlation between the acceptance of trans people and lessened suicide risk. Unless you want to tell me that gay and bisexual people, who also have a higher suicide risk than the general population, are way more privileged than straights, your point is moot.

[Drongonia]

Watching this person try to argue with you all is entertaining. They seem either blissfully unaware (or perhaps blinded with anger/determination to "win" - whatever that means) that they're outnumbered and it seems, intellectually outgunned.

The Proud Transphobe - give up bro. You are never going to convince people (including people who are trans) to change their mind. Do you honestly think Vassenor or any other trans person is gonna wake up one morning and be like "you know what? I don't think I want to take these hormones anymore. That guy who epicly owned me on NSG really changed my worldview."

And to everyone else giving TPT air - why? It's two sets of brick walls arguing at this point.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Well what makes the particular study I picked important is where it was carried out: Sweden. Sweden is quite possibly the most accepting, gender-affirming country on the planet.

Also, if alleged persecution is the root cause of suicide, wouldn't you expect similarly high rates among other victim groups, whose persecution has gone far beyond "misgendering"? If we just look at trends in black suicide in America, we can immediately see there is no correlation: whites commit suicide at twice the rate of blacks. In fact, the trend seems to be better conditions and privileges indicate higher rates of suicide. We humans evolved in an adverse environment that was essentially trying to kill us. When we are threatened our survival instincts kick in and we just try to stay alive. We generally only consider self-harm when there is little adversity. If prejudice truly is the cause of the depressingly high suicide rates among trans people, it is an anomaly. Again, the answer to suicide isn't to control other people's speech, but for people suffering such thoughts to seek professional help.

Counterpoint; the study you picked literally talks about how the solution to these issues lied in further acceptance of trans people. Also, with the evidence from the adolescent studies (which not only compared trans youth to the general population, but to youth in other categories of treatment) suggests that there is a correlation between the acceptance of trans people and lessened suicide risk. Unless you want to tell me that gay and bisexual people, who also have a higher suicide risk than the general population, are way more privileged than straights, your point is moot.

Compared to trans people, suicidality among gay and bisexual people is much closer to that of the general population, and on average they are both better educated and have higher incomes. They're not an outlier in the same way trans people are.

[Heloin]

Watching this person try to argue with you all is entertaining. They seem either blissfully unaware (or perhaps blinded with anger/determination to "win" - whatever that means) that they're outnumbered and it seems, intellectually outgunned.

The Proud Transphobe - give up bro. You are never going to convince people (including people who are trans) to change their mind. Do you honestly think Vassenor or any other trans person is gonna wake up one morning and be like "you know what? I don't think I want to take these hormones anymore. That guy who epicly owned me on NSG really changed my worldview."

And to everyone else giving TPT air - why? It's two sets of brick walls arguing at this point.

The transphobic talking point is one that ends in abuse, torture, and murder. The sock puppet isn’t providing an opposing bad but valid view, they’re advocating a violent world view that seeks to treat trans people as less than human. Take the “just ignore the trolls argument” back to 2010 where it belongs, the argument for for anyone else who pops along to know their is no validity to the puppets points.

[Red Lake Circle]

Counterpoint; the study you picked literally talks about how the solution to these issues lied in further acceptance of trans people. Also, with the evidence from the adolescent studies (which not only compared trans youth to the general population, but to youth in other categories of treatment) suggests that there is a correlation between the acceptance of trans people and lessened suicide risk. Unless you want to tell me that gay and bisexual people, who also have a higher suicide risk than the general population, are way more privileged than straights, your point is moot.

Compared to trans people, suicidality among gay and bisexual people is much closer to that of the general population, and on average they are both better educated and have higher incomes. They're not an outlier in the same way trans people are.

Not the main thrust of my point, but I suppose fair on this one… unimportant front

[Equai]

Watching this person try to argue with you all is entertaining. They seem either blissfully unaware (or perhaps blinded with anger/determination to "win" - whatever that means) that they're outnumbered and it seems, intellectually outgunned.

The Proud Transphobe - give up bro. You are never going to convince people (including people who are trans) to change their mind. Do you honestly think Vassenor or any other trans person is gonna wake up one morning and be like "you know what? I don't think I want to take these hormones anymore. That guy who epicly owned me on NSG really changed my worldview."

And to everyone else giving TPT air - why? It's two sets of brick walls arguing at this point.

It's mine and other trans people's identity that is at stake here. At the end because of people like him that we will continue to be treated like dirt, raped, abused, mocked and killed. I wish we can solve transphobia by ignoring transphobic people but sadly we can't. We need to fight this bigoted views and their violent calls. We will fight and we won't stop. Transphobes ha no knowledge of biology which is why they always resort to use 5th grade biology definitions. Because of people like TPT is that we continue to be stigmatized and that needs to stop.

[The Proud Transphobe]

advocating a violent world view that seeks to treat trans people as less than human.

Quite far from that, actually. I'm explicitly advocating for using terms which include "human" in the definition, and which I do indeed apply to beings I consider very much human:

woman = an adult human female
man = an adult human male

[Vassenor]

advocating a violent world view that seeks to treat trans people as less than human.

Quite far from that, actually. I'm explicitly advocating for using terms which include "human" in the definition, and which I do indeed apply to beings I consider very much human:

woman = an adult human female
man = an adult human male

And then run off screaming when people apply those terms in ways you disapprove of.

[Equai]

advocating a violent world view that seeks to treat trans people as less than human.

Quite far from that, actually. I'm explicitly advocating for using terms which include "human" in the definition, and which I do indeed apply to beings I consider very much human:

woman = an adult human female
man = an adult human male

You argue that trans women are not women and that trans men are not men when they CLEARLY are. You do advocate for the violence on trans people but subtle enough not to be caught by a casual reader.

Entire medical and scientific fields agrees with trans people, like you that or not.

Edit: Also man and woman apply to trans terminology.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Quite far from that, actually. I'm explicitly advocating for using terms which include "human" in the definition, and which I do indeed apply to beings I consider very much human:

woman = an adult human female
man = an adult human male

And then run off screaming when people apply those terms in ways you disapprove of.

Just like you do when I do?

Quite far from that, actually. I'm explicitly advocating for using terms which include "human" in the definition, and which I do indeed apply to beings I consider very much human:

woman = an adult human female
man = an adult human male

You argue that trans women are not women and that trans men are not men when they CLEARLY are. You do advocate for the violence on trans people but subtle enough not to be caught by a casual reader.

Entire medical and scientific fields agrees with trans people, like you that or not.

Where have I advocated for violence?

[Vassenor]

And then run off screaming when people apply those terms in ways you disapprove of.

Just like you do when I do?

I’m not the one demanding radical change to the English language because people insist on using the words a certain way.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Just like you do when I do?

I’m not the one demanding radical change to the English language because people insist on using the words a certain way.

As a compromise. Look, my side is going to continue using the traditional definition of "man", "woman", and other related words. We're not talking about gender when we use them. You are talking about something different than what the established definitions of those words meant up until very recently. That is, your side is the one who made any sort of change, and if you want to avoid confusion I recommend accepting the use of different terms.

[Equai]

And then run off screaming when people apply those terms in ways you disapprove of.

Just like you do when I do?

You argue that trans women are not women and that trans men are not men when they CLEARLY are. You do advocate for the violence on trans people but subtle enough not to be caught by a casual reader.

Entire medical and scientific fields agrees with trans people, like you that or not.

Where have I advocated for violence?

First: You literally demanding we fix language to fit your bigoted view like you never heard of synonyms before and argue that we try to hijack a language but people like you are most known to hijack common language.

Second: Now you decided to reply to me? Thinking I won't be able to defend my point? Oh you are wrong there. You denying trans people their identity, argue that their genitalia and chromosomes (who mind you have their own subgroups, mutations and identification and who in any sense are irrelevant to anyone who isn't in the academic field of researching it), saying that you know the best how trans people feel and refusing to accept their identity is maybe a far cry from physical violence but, oh boy, was it a call for a verbal qnd psychological violence that then will evolve in the physical violence.

[Equai]

I’m not the one demanding radical change to the English language because people insist on using the words a certain way.

As a compromise. Look, my side is going to continue using the traditional definition of "man", "woman", and other related words. We're not talking about gender when we use them. You are talking about something different than what the established definitions of those words meant up until very recently. That is, your side is the one who made any sort of change, and if you want to avoid confusion I recommend accepting the use of different terms.

Our side, as you like to call it, didn't changed any meaning of a word. Trans women are women and trans men are men. End of a story, it's not hard to grasp. Medical field, scientific field.. they all agree with us. Psychological have all the evidence to back us up but since you refuse to accept the evolving science is beyond us... It's just you unable to cope with the fact that science, and language for that matter is not static and will continue to evolve as the time progresses further.

[Necroghastia]

I’m not the one demanding radical change to the English language because people insist on using the words a certain way.

As a compromise. Look, my side is going to continue using the traditional definition of "man", "woman", and other related words. We're not talking about gender when we use them. You are talking about something different than what the established definitions of those words meant up until very recently. That is, your side is the one who made any sort of change, and if you want to avoid confusion I recommend accepting the use of different terms.

do you think everyone that has ever said the word "woman" was thinking of vaginas at the moment they said it

[Equai]

As a compromise. Look, my side is going to continue using the traditional definition of "man", "woman", and other related words. We're not talking about gender when we use them. You are talking about something different than what the established definitions of those words meant up until very recently. That is, your side is the one who made any sort of change, and if you want to avoid confusion I recommend accepting the use of different terms.

do you think everyone that has ever said the word "woman" was thinking of vaginas at the moment they said it

Considering that he sees women as baby dispensers who need to make babies and be servants of men (his own words not mine. I just didn't sugarcoated it to sound more "appealing") then it wouldn't be surprise if he seriously thinks that

[The Proud Transphobe]

Just like you do when I do?


Where have I advocated for violence?

First: You literally demanding we fix language to fit your bigoted view like you never heard of synonyms before and argue that we try to hijack a language but people like you are most known to hijack common language.

Up until very recently, the use of "man" or "woman" did not refer directly to gender by themselves. That is a change your side initiated, and I will not comply with it for anything.

Second: Now you decided to reply to me? Thinking I won't be able to defend my point? Oh you are wrong there. You denying trans people their identity, argue that their genitalia and chromosomes (who mind you have their own subgroups, mutations and identification and who in any sense are irrelevant to anyone who isn't in the academic field of researching it), saying that you know the best how trans people feel and refusing to accept their identity is maybe a far cry from physical violence but, oh boy, was it a call for a verbal qnd psychological violence that then will evolve in the physical violence.

People getting offended by my opinion isn't me advocating violence.

[Equai]

First: You literally demanding we fix language to fit your bigoted view like you never heard of synonyms before and argue that we try to hijack a language but people like you are most known to hijack common language.

Up until very recently, the use of "man" or "woman" did not refer directly to gender by themselves. That is a change your side initiated, and I will not comply with it for anything.

Second: Now you decided to reply to me? Thinking I won't be able to defend my point? Oh you are wrong there. You denying trans people their identity, argue that their genitalia and chromosomes (who mind you have their own subgroups, mutations and identification and who in any sense are irrelevant to anyone who isn't in the academic field of researching it), saying that you know the best how trans people feel and refusing to accept their identity is maybe a far cry from physical violence but, oh boy, was it a call for a verbal qnd psychological violence that then will evolve in the physical violence.

People getting offended by my opinion isn't me advocating violence.

Man and women are literally terms used for humans only for purpose of a gender. You never see anyone sane calls a male crocodile "man crocodile" or female eagle "woman eagle". In any case, both sex and gender exists on a spectrum.

If an opinion directly harms a group of minority then the opinion is not an opinion. Opinion is "I don't like onion" but opinion is not "I don't recognize your identity".

[The Proud Transphobe]

As a compromise. Look, my side is going to continue using the traditional definition of "man", "woman", and other related words. We're not talking about gender when we use them. You are talking about something different than what the established definitions of those words meant up until very recently. That is, your side is the one who made any sort of change, and if you want to avoid confusion I recommend accepting the use of different terms.

Our side, as you like to call it, didn't changed any meaning of a word. Trans women are women and trans men are men. End of a story, it's not hard to grasp. Medical field, scientific field.. they all agree with us. Psychological have all the evidence to back us up but since you refuse to accept the evolving science is beyond us... It's just you unable to cope with the fact that science, and language for that matter is not static and will continue to evolve as the time progresses further.

They don't. Your side directly claims your feelings override science.

As a compromise. Look, my side is going to continue using the traditional definition of "man", "woman", and other related words. We're not talking about gender when we use them. You are talking about something different than what the established definitions of those words meant up until very recently. That is, your side is the one who made any sort of change, and if you want to avoid confusion I recommend accepting the use of different terms.

do you think everyone that has ever said the word "woman" was thinking of vaginas at the moment they said it

Up until recently, basically yes. They would have been thinking "female", which refers to individuals who produce eggs and can typically get pregnant. The only reason for any linguistic change is your side decided to appropriate sexual terms as terms for gender, then gaslight as the majority of us continue to use it the way we've always meant.

[Vassenor]

Our side, as you like to call it, didn't changed any meaning of a word. Trans women are women and trans men are men. End of a story, it's not hard to grasp. Medical field, scientific field.. they all agree with us. Psychological have all the evidence to back us up but since you refuse to accept the evolving science is beyond us... It's just you unable to cope with the fact that science, and language for that matter is not static and will continue to evolve as the time progresses further.

They don't. Your side directly claims your feelings override science.

do you think everyone that has ever said the word "woman" was thinking of vaginas at the moment they said it

Up until recently, basically yes. They would have been thinking "female", which refers to individuals who produce eggs and can typically get pregnant. The only reason for any linguistic change is your side decided to appropriate sexual terms as terms for gender, then gaslight as the majority of us continue to use it the way we've always meant.

Apparently accepting that people are more than their genitals is gaslighting now.

[Jewish Underground State]

Our side, as you like to call it, didn't changed any meaning of a word. Trans women are women and trans men are men. End of a story, it's not hard to grasp. Medical field, scientific field.. they all agree with us. Psychological have all the evidence to back us up but since you refuse to accept the evolving science is beyond us... It's just you unable to cope with the fact that science, and language for that matter is not static and will continue to evolve as the time progresses further.

They don't. Your side directly claims your feelings override science.

do you think everyone that has ever said the word "woman" was thinking of vaginas at the moment they said it

Up until recently, basically yes. They would have been thinking "female", which refers to individuals who produce eggs and can typically get pregnant. The only reason for any linguistic change is your side decided to appropriate sexual terms as terms for gender, then gaslight as the majority of us continue to use it the way we've always meant.

But is there a problem with people changing genders? Or loving the same gender?

[The Proud Transphobe]

Up until very recently, the use of "man" or "woman" did not refer directly to gender by themselves. That is a change your side initiated, and I will not comply with it for anything.


People getting offended by my opinion isn't me advocating violence.

Man and women are literally terms used for humans only for purpose of a gender. You never see anyone sane calls a male crocodile "man crocodile" or female eagle "woman eagle". In any case, both sex and gender exists on a spectrum.

A man is an adult human male. A woman is an adult human female. Of course they're not going to be used to refer to non-humans. Which is ironic, because one of the other posters was claiming I held the position that trans people are "less than human". I'm literally using a word that I'm fully aware only applies to humans.

If an opinion directly harms a group of minority then the opinion is not an opinion. Opinion is "I don't like onion" but opinion is not "I don't recognize your identity".

Gender identity is a social construct. By definition it is an opinion, and subject to the perspective of the speaker. I am also not harming anyone.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

do you think everyone that has ever said the word "woman" was thinking of vaginas at the moment they said it

Up until recently, basically yes. They would have been thinking "female", which refers to individuals who produce eggs and can typically get pregnant. The only reason for any linguistic change is your side decided to appropriate sexual terms as terms for gender, then gaslight as the majority of us continue to use it the way we've always meant.

when people referred to a person as a woman, they were referring to their gender, not whether they could fuck them and produce a child. and even then, it doesn’t matter what people fifty years ago did.

[Vassenor]

Man and women are literally terms used for humans only for purpose of a gender. You never see anyone sane calls a male crocodile "man crocodile" or female eagle "woman eagle". In any case, both sex and gender exists on a spectrum.

A man is an adult human male. A woman is an adult human female. Of course they're not going to be used to refer to non-humans. Which is ironic, because one of the other posters was claiming I held the position that trans people are "less than human". I'm literally using a word that I'm fully aware only applies to humans.

If an opinion directly harms a group of minority then the opinion is not an opinion. Opinion is "I don't like onion" but opinion is not "I don't recognize your identity".

Gender identity is a social construct. By definition it is an opinion, and subject to the perspective of the speaker. I am also not harming anyone.

So how do you form that opinion about what term to use for each person?