A Matter of Pride

[Vassenor]

You’re not “using correct terminology,” you’re asking everyone else to overhaul theirs because it doesn’t fit your exceedingly narrow view of what gender should be. You know that study that found that 40% of trans youth attempt suicide? This exact kind of position has been linked to just how horrifically high that statistic is. Your reasoning is pedantic at best and malicious at worst, and it’s results make the world an actively less safe place for a substantial portion of the population.

Suicidality is a personal problem that should be addressed by a therapist, not by thought-policing other people.

Scientific literature also shows that humans have gender as a psychosocial category. We are not denying that sex is a thing, but you are very much denying that gender is. You’re just being deliberately obtuse.

At no point have I said gender isn't a thing. I just recognize it is a social construct, and therefore (unlike science) extremely subjective. Like I have said before, you are free to categorize different genders as we discover them, just bear in mind they're going to have to be different than the terms we use for sex categories if you want to avoid confusion between sex and gender.

So you're still relying on biological essentialism because you know if you consider literally anything else your position becomes untenable.

Yeah. It's almost as if biology is a strong foundation of knowledge and truth you can't accept because your feelings are in the way.

Says the person who wants the whole of the English language rewritten to suit their feelings.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Most of the time, by asking the person - because the vast majority of people are going to give a biologically accurate answer. Their feelings aren't getting in the way of objectivity. But if there's ever a question, there are birth certificates and medical tests available to ascertain the truth.

So everyone must carry their birth certificate or submit to a medical test of your chosing before you will talk to them?

No. My default assumption is going to be that what someone tells me is correct (innocent until proven guilty and all that). All I'm saying is if a man tells me he's a woman and I call him a "she", he is wrong and I've been deceived.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Suicidality is a personal problem that should be addressed by a therapist, not by thought-policing other people.


At no point have I said gender isn't a thing. I just recognize it is a social construct, and therefore (unlike science) extremely subjective. Like I have said before, you are free to categorize different genders as we discover them, just bear in mind they're going to have to be different than the terms we use for sex categories if you want to avoid confusion between sex and gender.


Yeah. It's almost as if biology is a strong foundation of knowledge and truth you can't accept because your feelings are in the way.

Says the person who wants the whole of the English language rewritten to suit their feelings.

"Entire language"? We're talking about the traditional definitions of like a dozen words (no rewriting necessary), plus however many words you guys want to add. You are exaggerating by several orders of magnitude.

[Vassenor]

Says the person who wants the whole of the English language rewritten to suit their feelings.

"Entire language"? We're talking about the traditional definitions of like a dozen words (no rewriting necessary), plus however many words you guys want to add. You are exaggerating by several orders of magnitude.

And that is still the sort of prescriptivism that gets you laughed at by serious lignuists.

[Western Theram]

So everyone must carry their birth certificate or submit to a medical test of your chosing before you will talk to them?

No. My default assumption is going to be that what someone tells me is correct (innocent until proven guilty and all that). All I'm saying is if a man tells me he's a woman and I call him a "she", he is wrong and I've been deceived.

You’re not being “deceived” you’re being ignorant. Just admit you’re scared of trans people. I see no other reason to care this much about someone’s biology. It’s borderline if not obsessive

[The Proud Transphobe]

No. My default assumption is going to be that what someone tells me is correct (innocent until proven guilty and all that). All I'm saying is if a man tells me he's a woman and I call him a "she", he is wrong and I've been deceived.

You’re not being “deceived” you’re being ignorant. Just admit you’re scared of trans people. I see no other reason to care this much about someone’s biology. It’s borderline if not obsessive

Telling someone titled "The Proud Transphobe" to "just admit you're scared of trans people".

[Western Theram]

You’re not being “deceived” you’re being ignorant. Just admit you’re scared of trans people. I see no other reason to care this much about someone’s biology. It’s borderline if not obsessive

Telling someone titled "The Proud Transphobe" to "just admit you're scared of trans people".

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

[Red Lake Circle]

You’re not being “deceived” you’re being ignorant. Just admit you’re scared of trans people. I see no other reason to care this much about someone’s biology. It’s borderline if not obsessive

Telling someone titled "The Proud Transphobe" to "just admit you're scared of trans people".

I mean, hey, at least you admitted to your irrational fear. That’s the first step to healing.

[Thethen]

Telling someone titled "The Proud Transphobe" to "just admit you're scared of trans people".

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

The fact that someone can change genders is weird to them, I guess.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Telling someone titled "The Proud Transphobe" to "just admit you're scared of trans people".

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

People who want to control my speech and thoughts based on what essentially amounts to religious zealotry are inherently scary. And it does affect me - when close friends I've known all my life demand I treat them as something I know full well they aren't.

Telling someone titled "The Proud Transphobe" to "just admit you're scared of trans people".

I mean, hey, at least you admitted to your irrational fear. That’s the first step to healing.

Heal? From what?

[Vassenor]

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

People who want to control my speech and thoughts based on what essentially amounts to religious zealotry are inherently scary. And it does affect me - when close friends I've known all my life demand I treat them as something I know full well they aren't.

Whereas you want to control our speech and thoughts based on your zealous feelings which is totally different.

Also apparently you know other people better than they know themselves somehow which is totally normal and not at all patronising.

[Western Theram]

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

People who want to control my speech and thoughts based on what essentially amounts to religious zealotry are inherently scary. And it does affect me - when close friends I've known all my life demand I treat them as something I know full well they aren't.

You don’t really know your “close friends” then. Nor are you a true friend cause if you were you
would respect them. Also you’re the one saying we should add new words to “avoid confusion” if suicidality is a personal problem so is your “confusion” and irrational anger

[Necroghastia]

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

People who want to control my speech and thoughts based on what essentially amounts to religious zealotry are inherently scary. And it does affect me - when close friends I've known all my life demand I treat them as something I know full well they aren't.

Said friends probably aren't going to fuck you, you know.

[Islamic Essarn]

How do you report people on the forums?

[Red Lake Circle]

How do you report people on the forums?

Nuts and Bolts > Moderation > Posting something with a topic title like “[R] (brief description of what you’re reporting)” along with a link to the offending post(s).

I wouldn’t hold out much hope, though; Proud Transphobe has been reported before and nothing happened.

[The Proud Transphobe]

People who want to control my speech and thoughts based on what essentially amounts to religious zealotry are inherently scary. And it does affect me - when close friends I've known all my life demand I treat them as something I know full well they aren't.

Whereas you want to control our speech and thoughts based on your zealous feelings which is totally different.

Touché. I suppose the desire for control is mutual then.

Also apparently you know other people better than they know themselves somehow which is totally normal and not at all patronising.

People hardly even know themselves. They tell themselves lies to feel better, or to reinforce internalized negativity. And let's be real: your doctor understands your body much better than you do. They are in a much better position to designate your sex objectively than you are. The truth is there are a lot of negative pressures encouraging people to adopt transgenderism. Men are constantly told they are the horrible oppressors of women. Women are constantly told men have privilege they can never attain. It's no wonder we see so many people with bottled up resentment toward their own body and social situation deciding to delude themselves about reality. It's no wonder so many harbor suicidal thoughts and feelings, or determine that self-harm via transition surgery is an acceptable alternative. The trans movement exists to make people miserable. It has no place being celebrated alongside people, such as gays, lesbians, intersex people, asexual people, or others who actually have a reason for pride. The best thing you can do for a trans person is tell them they are at their best the way they came into this world, and that they should not change anything about themselves. That there is not something wrong with them. That their body is not a mistake. That it is an integral part of them, and that no amount of modification or trickery will make them happy. I know you think this is patronizing, but it is the truth you need to hear.

[Vassenor]

Whereas you want to control our speech and thoughts based on your zealous feelings which is totally different.

Touché. I suppose the desire for control is mutual then.

Also apparently you know other people better than they know themselves somehow which is totally normal and not at all patronising.

People hardly even know themselves. They tell themselves lies to feel better, or to reinforce internalized negativity. And let's be real: your doctor understands your body much better than you do. They are in a much better position to designate your sex objectively than you are. The truth is there are a lot of negative pressures encouraging people to adopt transgenderism. Men are constantly told they are the horrible oppressors of women. Women are constantly told men have privilege they can never attain. It's no wonder we see so many people with bottled up resentment toward their own body and social situation deciding to delude themselves about reality. It's no wonder so many harbor suicidal thoughts and feelings, or determine that self-harm via transition surgery is an acceptable alternative. The trans movement exists to make people miserable. It has no place being celebrated alongside people, such as gays, lesbians, intersex people, asexual people, or others who actually have a reason for pride. The best thing you can do for a trans person is tell them they are at their best the way they came into this world, and that they should not change anything about themselves. That there is not something wrong with them. That their body is not a mistake. That it is an integral part of them, and that no amount of modification or trickery will make them happy. I know you think this is patronizing, but it is the truth you need to hear.

And thinking like that is why suicidal ideation is so high among trans people to the point where actual affirming care results in 73% lower odds of suicidality in adolescent patients.

[Equai]

What exactly is so scary about trans people tho? Like literally what’s the point if you can’t tell? And if you can good job it doesn’t effect your life in any way shape or form.

People who want to control my speech and thoughts based on what essentially amounts to religious zealotry are inherently scary. And it does affect me - when close friends I've known all my life demand I treat them as something I know full well they aren't.

I would suggest your close friends to avoid you because you obviously aren't a good friend. If you claim that you know your close friends better then they know themselves then you are more detached fr reality then I thought. You can't know how someone else's feels, no matter how close you are to them. Only a person knows itself the best and your inability to accept people for who they are, plus obvious mysogyny and male entitlement you are no shy to share... Only suggestion i have for you close friends is to end all contacts with you. For their own good.

[Red Lake Circle]

People hardly even know themselves. They tell themselves lies to feel better, or to reinforce internalized negativity. And let's be real: your doctor understands your body much better than you do. They are in a much better position to designate your sex objectively than you are. The truth is there are a lot of negative pressures encouraging people to adopt transgenderism. Men are constantly told they are the horrible oppressors of women. Women are constantly told men have privilege they can never attain. It's no wonder we see so many people with bottled up resentment toward their own body and social situation deciding to delude themselves about reality. It's no wonder so many harbor suicidal thoughts and feelings, or determine that self-harm via transition surgery is an acceptable alternative. The trans movement exists to make people miserable. It has no place being celebrated alongside people, such as gays, lesbians, intersex people, asexual people, or others who actually have a reason for pride. The best thing you can do for a trans person is tell them they are at their best the way they came into this world, and that they should not change anything about themselves. That there is not something wrong with them. That their body is not a mistake. That it is an integral part of them, and that no amount of modification or trickery will make them happy. I know you think this is patronizing, but it is the truth you need to hear.

And thinking like that is why suicidal ideation is so high among trans people to the point where actual affirming care results in 73% lower odds of suicidality in adolescent patients.

Love how he also just… completely ignores the fact that doctors are usually the ones that have to put you on transition meds. If doctors cared so much about designated sex, then you’d think endocrinologists and surgeons would stop this foolishness with prescribing HRT and gender affirming surgeries…

[Crazy girl]

Whereas you want to control our speech and thoughts based on your zealous feelings which is totally different.

Touché. I suppose the desire for control is mutual then.

Also apparently you know other people better than they know themselves somehow which is totally normal and not at all patronising.

People hardly even know themselves. They tell themselves lies to feel better, or to reinforce internalized negativity. And let's be real: your doctor understands your body much better than you do. They are in a much better position to designate your sex objectively than you are. The truth is there are a lot of negative pressures encouraging people to adopt transgenderism. Men are constantly told they are the horrible oppressors of women. Women are constantly told men have privilege they can never attain. It's no wonder we see so many people with bottled up resentment toward their own body and social situation deciding to delude themselves about reality. It's no wonder so many harbor suicidal thoughts and feelings, or determine that self-harm via transition surgery is an acceptable alternative. The trans movement exists to make people miserable. It has no place being celebrated alongside people, such as gays, lesbians, intersex people, asexual people, or others who actually have a reason for pride. The best thing you can do for a trans person is tell them they are at their best the way they came into this world, and that they should not change anything about themselves. That there is not something wrong with them. That their body is not a mistake. That it is an integral part of them, and that no amount of modification or trickery will make them happy. I know you think this is patronizing, but it is the truth you need to hear.

A lot of your posts here have been skirting the line, though staying just on the right side of it. This one, however, crosses it.

*** Warned for trolling ***

You are allowed to have your opinion, but how you voice it is important.

[The Proud Transphobe]

Touché. I suppose the desire for control is mutual then.


People hardly even know themselves. They tell themselves lies to feel better, or to reinforce internalized negativity. And let's be real: your doctor understands your body much better than you do. They are in a much better position to designate your sex objectively than you are. The truth is there are a lot of negative pressures encouraging people to adopt transgenderism. Men are constantly told they are the horrible oppressors of women. Women are constantly told men have privilege they can never attain. It's no wonder we see so many people with bottled up resentment toward their own body and social situation deciding to delude themselves about reality. It's no wonder so many harbor suicidal thoughts and feelings, or determine that self-harm via transition surgery is an acceptable alternative. The trans movement exists to make people miserable. It has no place being celebrated alongside people, such as gays, lesbians, intersex people, asexual people, or others who actually have a reason for pride. The best thing you can do for a trans person is tell them they are at their best the way they came into this world, and that they should not change anything about themselves. That there is not something wrong with them. That their body is not a mistake. That it is an integral part of them, and that no amount of modification or trickery will make them happy. I know you think this is patronizing, but it is the truth you need to hear.

And thinking like that is why suicidal ideation is so high among trans people to the point where actual affirming care results in 73% lower odds of suicidality in adolescent patients.

There's a reason you cherry-pick for adolescents while ignoring post-transition adults.

[Red Lake Circle]

And thinking like that is why suicidal ideation is so high among trans people to the point where actual affirming care results in 73% lower odds of suicidality in adolescent patients.

There's a reason you cherry-pick for adolescents while ignoring post-transition adults.

Yeah, it’s funny… it’s almost like gender reassignment surgery doesn’t immediately solve every issue that comes along with being trans and that they still experience a substantial amount of transphobia and trauma that makes them more likely to commit suicide…

[Vassenor]

And thinking like that is why suicidal ideation is so high among trans people to the point where actual affirming care results in 73% lower odds of suicidality in adolescent patients.

There's a reason you cherry-pick for adolescents while ignoring post-transition adults.

If you're going to complain about cherry picking maybe try actually reading the study you're citing. Especially the bits about how medical transition is only one piece of the support puzzle.

[Equai]

And thinking like that is why suicidal ideation is so high among trans people to the point where actual affirming care results in 73% lower odds of suicidality in adolescent patients.

There's a reason you cherry-pick for adolescents while ignoring post-transition adults.

It's a very old study. Furthermore, post-transition trans people also experience transphobia and social rejections because we are stigmatized to hell and back. All thanks because people like you keep denying us, our rights to exist and continue to harass us for wanting to just live normally and be accepted.

[The Proud Transphobe]

There's a reason you cherry-pick for adolescents while ignoring post-transition adults.

Yeah, it’s funny… it’s almost like gender reassignment surgery doesn’t immediately solve every issue that comes along with being trans and that they still experience a substantial amount of transphobia and trauma that makes them more likely to commit suicide…

Well what makes the particular study I picked important is where it was carried out: Sweden. Sweden is quite possibly the most accepting, gender-affirming country on the planet.

Also, if alleged persecution is the root cause of suicide, wouldn't you expect similarly high rates among other victim groups, whose persecution has gone far beyond "misgendering"? If we just look at trends in black suicide in America, we can immediately see there is no correlation: whites commit suicide at twice the rate of blacks. In fact, the trend seems to be better conditions and privileges indicate higher rates of suicide. We humans evolved in an adverse environment that was essentially trying to kill us. When we are threatened our survival instincts kick in and we just try to stay alive. We generally only consider self-harm when there is little adversity. If prejudice truly is the cause of the depressingly high suicide rates among trans people, it is an anomaly. Again, the answer to suicide isn't to control other people's speech, but for people suffering such thoughts to seek professional help.

There's a reason you cherry-pick for adolescents while ignoring post-transition adults.

If you're going to complain about cherry picking maybe try actually reading the study you're citing. Especially the bits about how medical transition is only one piece of the support puzzle.

To be fair, if someone wants to get transition surgery, they are free to do so. I'm not going to fight them on it, no matter how bad of a decision I think it is. My concern is language and resolving the ambiguity caused by one part of the population saying "woman" is gender, and the other part saying it is sex.