US Department of the Navy vs France

[Northern Seleucia]

*almost* as many.

And that's where the difference is made. Almost is not good enough, and neither will France's older equipment help. And other European nations use American equipment a lot too, and there's export controls that prevent them from selling it without U.S permission.

In fact, France couldn't even sell their OWN planes to Egypt because it's full of American parts.. Those American parts that are so critical to the plane will not be arriving anymore. Any damaged plane is a done deal.

So the other EU countries, possibly future targets, could send American aircraft? And France would be able to at least cause significant damage to the Americans before being destroyed once and for all

Well, no, because export controls prevent them from sending equipment.

Obviously the French fleet would meet the Americans in the Atlantic and the fleet commanders would have a chat and both agree to stand down, because this is obviously some kind of terrible misunderstanding and there is no conceivable reason for them to fight. Both fleets would turn around and go home and that'd be that.

Wholesome.

[Adamede]

The US would probably be able to domiante the seas very easily but there's no way that the Marine Corp on their own could occupy a country the size of Texas, but with like 3x the population and significant mountianous areas and many major cities just by itself. Thats not what their job is.

[Ifreann]

The US would probably be able to domiante the seas very easily but there's no way that the Marine Corp on their own could occupy a country the size of Texas, but with like 3x the population and significant mountianous areas and many major cities just by itself. Thats not what their job is.

And France has plenty of crayons.

[Biladu Al Rafidayn]

The US would probably be able to domiante the seas very easily but there's no way that the Marine Corp on their own could occupy a country the size of Texas, but with like 3x the population and significant mountianous areas and many major cities just by itself. Thats not what their job is.

And France has plenty of crayons.

Understatement of the year. France literally invented the word “crayon”

[Necroghastia]

Obviously the French fleet would meet the Americans in the Atlantic and the fleet commanders would have a chat and both agree to stand down, because this is obviously some kind of terrible misunderstanding and there is no conceivable reason for them to fight. Both fleets would turn around and go home and that'd be that.

Obviously it's the army esports team having a Gamer Moment over the new French language rules.

[Ifreann]

Obviously the French fleet would meet the Americans in the Atlantic and the fleet commanders would have a chat and both agree to stand down, because this is obviously some kind of terrible misunderstanding and there is no conceivable reason for them to fight. Both fleets would turn around and go home and that'd be that.

Obviously it's the army esports team having a Gamer Moment over the new French language rules.

Sending the Atlantic fleet and an expeditionary force to Ubisoft headquarters to have a polite conversation about the balance in Rainbow Six.

[Kannap]

Please consider the following hypothetical

Absolutely not

The USA is trying to invade France.

However, the USA can only use the forces under the Department of the Navy (mainly including the US Navy and the US Marine Corps). France is allowed to use its entire military.

Who made the idiotic decision to invade France using just the navy? France is going to win easily.

No nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. Also, no other countries may intervene militarily in the war (though they may impose sanctions or supply weapons). The American forces have a 2 year window in which to establish military victory over France. The win condition for this hypothetical will be complete control of 5 major cities in continental France (one of which must be include Paris).

France is playing this Hearts of Iron 4 scenario on baby easy mode.

In this scenario, American public opinion remains substantially pro war irrespective of what may happen. In the event that the USA introduces conscription, the additional soldiers may not use existing military weapons from the other branches (they are not to be used in this war). All military equipment used by the conscripts would either have to come from the munitions stockpiles controlled by the Department of the Navy or else constructed/bought from nothing.

lol lmao

Which side would prevail under these engagement conditions? How do you think the war would go down? Please explain.

I think it's a fool's errand and that France carries the homefield advantage.

I would expect the Americans to prevail in the sea and air engagements. However, the French forces having superior numbers might be able to prevent the USMC from occupying 5 major cities in the 2 year window, especially if they mobilize reserves.

You haven't bothered to even consider the U.S. Coast Guard in all of this, which is the secret weapon that signals France's downfall. I can't believe you.

[Archinstinct]

France, from the war games in 2015 it's submarines can sneak in and sink US aircraft carriers. If the carriers can be sunk, that's game over already.

Wait, why am I replying to the thread of somebody with such horrible views!? Bleh!!

[Infected Mushroom]

*almost* as many.

And that's where the difference is made. Almost is not good enough, and neither will France's older equipment help. And other European nations use American equipment a lot too, and there's export controls that prevent them from selling it without U.S permission.

In fact, France couldn't even sell their OWN planes to Egypt because it's full of American parts.. Those American parts that are so critical to the plane will not be arriving anymore. Any damaged plane is a done deal.

So the other EU countries, possibly future targets, could send American aircraft? And France would be able to at least cause significant damage to the Americans before being destroyed once and for all

Yes. According to the OP, other countries can send aid and weapons.

[Ethel mermania]

The US would probably be able to domiante the seas very easily but there's no way that the Marine Corp on their own could occupy a country the size of Texas, but with like 3x the population and significant mountianous areas and many major cities just by itself. Thats not what their job is.

And France has plenty of crayons.

Better food too. The occupation forces will be corrupted by napoleons and soft buttery croissants.

[Thermodolia]

France wins in this scenario, and it's not even close.

It is the world's 5th largest military spender, and has an active duty armed forces comparable to the US Navy. It has the GIGN, a special forces unit every bit as elite as the Navy Seals or the Marines are. France maintains a shadow colonial empire and its troops have plenty of recent experience fighting in west Africa. While you are ruling out other countries intervening militarily, you decide that they can supply weapons- and if you believe that Europe is enthusiastic about supplying weapons to Ukraine right now, just you wait until it's this case! French forces will be fighting for their homeland, while the US is sailing across an entire ocean.

Assuming of course we keep it to just the Navy... which this hypothetical then muddies by introducing the idea of US conscription or building new stuff for the Navy. Far as I can see, there is nothing stopping the US Navy from becoming de facto the Army, Airforce and Navy all at the same time. The new navy tank corps might prove effective.

But all France needs to do here is survive 2 years and hold Paris to claim the win. This, with near certainty, they could accomplish.

Of course, in the real world this conflict would see nuclear weapons fly. So everyone loses.

Point of order, this is the Department of the Navy which includes the Navy and the USMC and during war time the Coast Guard. The USMC has had tanks before and it’s easy for them to be the tanks. The US could just dump the entire ground forces into the USMC while splitting the air forces between the Navy and USMC.

Tbh I think it would be a draw. The US could very well occupy most of France but not all of it

[Thermodolia]

The US would probably be able to domiante the seas very easily but there's no way that the Marine Corp on their own could occupy a country the size of Texas, but with like 3x the population and significant mountianous areas and many major cities just by itself. Thats not what their job is.

We can though. The USMC outnumbers the French army, the entire thing. And if you throw in conscription and declare that half of the US Army are now Marines that number grows (I don’t approve of this last plan because if you don’t go to MCRD you ain’t a Marine)

[Infected Mushroom]

How effective would French AA and ATGM equipment be against American forces?

Also, what is the best strategy for the French Navy to adopt?

[Ifreann]

How effective would French AA and ATGM equipment be against American forces?

Also, what is the best strategy for the French Navy to adopt?

The best strategy is to talk to the Americans and agree to stand down because there is no reason to fight.

[Infected Mushroom]

How effective would French AA and ATGM equipment be against American forces?

Also, what is the best strategy for the French Navy to adopt?

The best strategy is to talk to the Americans and agree to stand down because there is no reason to fight.

And should the USA insist to fight? How would you command the French fleet?

[Ifreann]

The best strategy is to talk to the Americans and agree to stand down because there is no reason to fight.

And should the USA insist to fight?

They wouldn't. It would be too silly.

[Infected Mushroom]

And should the USA insist to fight?

They wouldn't. It would be too silly.

Would the Navy make a glorious final stand in the Atlantic? Or would they stay close to land bases closer to continental France where they could benefit from more airpower and land-based missile systems?

[Ifreann]

They wouldn't. It would be too silly.

Would the Navy make a glorious final stand in the Atlantic? Or would they stay close to land bases closer to continental France where they could benefit from more airpower and land-based missile systems?

They wouldn't fight at all. There's literally no reason. The American Atlantic fleet probably wouldn't even do anything. This is less realistic than the time you asked us to pretend to be World of Warcraft characters.

[Northern Seleucia]

They wouldn't. It would be too silly.

Would the Navy make a glorious final stand in the Atlantic? Or would they stay close to land bases closer to continental France where they could benefit from more airpower and land-based missile systems?

It would not be a very glorious last stand. Whoever is commanding the French Navy would be studied for decades as a commander who played his cards completely and utterly wrong. He would not be seen as a hero making a stand, but as a fool who actually carried out the operation. Our naval commander would be seen just a foolish for attacking the French navy and pointlessly destroyed an allied navy.

[Northern Seleucia]

Would the Navy make a glorious final stand in the Atlantic? Or would they stay close to land bases closer to continental France where they could benefit from more airpower and land-based missile systems?

They wouldn't fight at all. There's literally no reason. The American Atlantic fleet probably wouldn't even do anything. This is less realistic than the time you asked us to pretend to be World of Warcraft characters.

As much as we jokingly dislike the French, it'll be a terrible waste of Aegis Defense System missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles.

[Atlantic Isles]

France would be absolutely, positively, 100% curb-stomped by the United States- at least if I ran the show. Remember, the element of surprise is 100% in favor of the Americans here. Hypothetically, if I were to be in command of the operation, this is how I’d do things.

Phase 1: Americans prepare the battlefield and get in position by conducting a joint mass exercise, hosted by France. Significant portions of French forces are committed to the war games, and the Americans know where they are.

Phase 2: This is where things get interesting. A combined force of operators from DEVGRU, various SEAL teams, and Marine Raiders kidnap or kill most significant French officials, including the president, ministers, generals, etc. But there’s a catch. Those operators happen to be wearing Russian uniforms, using Russian weapons, and firing Russian ammunition.

Phase 3: Immediately following the assassination/abduction campaign, all American aircraft on French airfields launch and begin heading for numerous aircraft carriers off the French coast. As they head that way, they strike any military targets convenient to their route of flight. As soon as all American aircraft are airborne, Tomahawk missiles and naval artillery rain down on French airfields, army bases, and seaports. The forces that are participating in the war games are immediately engaged by the Americans, who are to initially play it off as a system malfunction, that their weapons and vehicles were mistakenly loaded with live rounds.

Phase 4: With the war now well underway, US Marines conduct amphibious landings and parachute deployments into significant regions of France, and, with the support of American naval aviation, quickly sweep through the nation. Psyops campaigns are conducted, advising French forces to surrender and French civilians to take shelter in clearly marked civilian shelters- and to not harbor French troops.

Obviously a real war is more complex than this, but I’m typing this from my smartphone at the moment and I can’t flesh it out very much. Hopefully, though, this gives you a bit of an idea of how America could conduct a successful invasion of France.

[Northern Seleucia]

France would be absolutely, positively, 100% curb-stomped by the United States- at least if I ran the show. Remember, the element of surprise is 100% in favor of the Americans here. Hypothetically, if I were to be in command of the operation, this is how I’d do things.

Phase 1: Americans prepare the battlefield and get in position by conducting a joint mass exercise, hosted by France. Significant portions of French forces are committed to the war games, and the Americans know where they are.

Phase 2: This is where things get interesting. A combined force of operators from DEVGRU, various SEAL teams, and Marine Raiders kidnap or kill most significant French officials, including the president, ministers, generals, etc. But there’s a catch. Those operators happen to be wearing Russian uniforms, using Russian weapons, and firing Russian ammunition.

Phase 3: Immediately following the assassination/abduction campaign, all American aircraft on French airfields launch and begin heading for numerous aircraft carriers off the French coast. As they head that way, they strike any military targets convenient to their route of flight. As soon as all American aircraft are airborne, Tomahawk missiles and naval artillery rain down on French airfields, army bases, and seaports. The forces that are participating in the war games are immediately engaged by the Americans, who are to initially play it off as a system malfunction, that their weapons and vehicles were mistakenly loaded with live rounds.

Phase 4: With the war now well underway, US Marines conduct amphibious landings and parachute deployments into significant regions of France, and, with the support of American naval aviation, quickly sweep through the nation. Psyops campaigns are conducted, advising French forces to surrender and French civilians to take shelter in clearly marked civilian shelters- and to not harbor French troops.

Obviously a real war is more complex than this, but I’m typing this from my smartphone at the moment and I can’t flesh it out very much. Hopefully, though, this gives you a bit of an idea of how America could conduct a successful invasion of France.

'MURICA

[Infected Mushroom]

France would be absolutely, positively, 100% curb-stomped by the United States- at least if I ran the show. Remember, the element of surprise is 100% in favor of the Americans here. Hypothetically, if I were to be in command of the operation, this is how I’d do things.

Phase 1: Americans prepare the battlefield and get in position by conducting a joint mass exercise, hosted by France. Significant portions of French forces are committed to the war games, and the Americans know where they are.

Phase 2: This is where things get interesting. A combined force of operators from DEVGRU, various SEAL teams, and Marine Raiders kidnap or kill most significant French officials, including the president, ministers, generals, etc. But there’s a catch. Those operators happen to be wearing Russian uniforms, using Russian weapons, and firing Russian ammunition.

Phase 3: Immediately following the assassination/abduction campaign, all American aircraft on French airfields launch and begin heading for numerous aircraft carriers off the French coast. As they head that way, they strike any military targets convenient to their route of flight. As soon as all American aircraft are airborne, Tomahawk missiles and naval artillery rain down on French airfields, army bases, and seaports. The forces that are participating in the war games are immediately engaged by the Americans, who are to initially play it off as a system malfunction, that their weapons and vehicles were mistakenly loaded with live rounds.

Phase 4: With the war now well underway, US Marines conduct amphibious landings and parachute deployments into significant regions of France, and, with the support of American naval aviation, quickly sweep through the nation. Psyops campaigns are conducted, advising French forces to surrender and French civilians to take shelter in clearly marked civilian shelters- and to not harbor French troops.

Obviously a real war is more complex than this, but I’m typing this from my smartphone at the moment and I can’t flesh it out very much. Hopefully, though, this gives you a bit of an idea of how America could conduct a successful invasion of France.

Are you saying the American forces wouldn’t fight with honor?

[Ifreann]

Your idea is for America to attack an allied nation and murder probably millions of innocent people for no reason whatsoever and you're talking about fighting with honour?

[Northern Seleucia]

France would be absolutely, positively, 100% curb-stomped by the United States- at least if I ran the show. Remember, the element of surprise is 100% in favor of the Americans here. Hypothetically, if I were to be in command of the operation, this is how I’d do things.

Phase 1: Americans prepare the battlefield and get in position by conducting a joint mass exercise, hosted by France. Significant portions of French forces are committed to the war games, and the Americans know where they are.

Phase 2: This is where things get interesting. A combined force of operators from DEVGRU, various SEAL teams, and Marine Raiders kidnap or kill most significant French officials, including the president, ministers, generals, etc. But there’s a catch. Those operators happen to be wearing Russian uniforms, using Russian weapons, and firing Russian ammunition.

Phase 3: Immediately following the assassination/abduction campaign, all American aircraft on French airfields launch and begin heading for numerous aircraft carriers off the French coast. As they head that way, they strike any military targets convenient to their route of flight. As soon as all American aircraft are airborne, Tomahawk missiles and naval artillery rain down on French airfields, army bases, and seaports. The forces that are participating in the war games are immediately engaged by the Americans, who are to initially play it off as a system malfunction, that their weapons and vehicles were mistakenly loaded with live rounds.

Phase 4: With the war now well underway, US Marines conduct amphibious landings and parachute deployments into significant regions of France, and, with the support of American naval aviation, quickly sweep through the nation. Psyops campaigns are conducted, advising French forces to surrender and French civilians to take shelter in clearly marked civilian shelters- and to not harbor French troops.

Obviously a real war is more complex than this, but I’m typing this from my smartphone at the moment and I can’t flesh it out very much. Hopefully, though, this gives you a bit of an idea of how America could conduct a successful invasion of France.

Are you saying the American forces wouldn’t fight with honor?

Fighting with honor? What do you mean by that?

The very fact we're attacking France is dishonorable, really.