The war in Somalia

[Azania-]

the only part of Somalia that seems stable is Somaliland and maybe Puntland. Interesting read

Normally, I'm not in favour of any form of secessionism - especially in Africa where it has the potential to cause incredibly destructive conflicts - but there isn't really any alternative for Somaliland besides its current state of de facto independence. Sure, Somaliland's government has major problems, but at least it has a government - as well as a functional democracy.

But as for the topic of the thread, the only thing we can do is wait and see to what extent (if any) the current US intervention will affect the Somali conflict before jumping to conclusions. I will say (this is my opinion so don't take it as gospel) that "nation-building" is unlikely to happen in Somalia anytime soon since that requires a level of stability that the Somali government has not (and cannot) achieved. It would also (again, opinion) realistically require sustained investment from the international community since Somalia in its current state is unable to do so alone. This presents a problem (opinion) in that the current world doesn't allow for these sorts of things to happen; in fact, it inherently enables the endemic poverty and instability that we see in Somalia.

[Azania-]

Maybe instead of trying to get rid of this generation of terrorist, the USA should focus on stopping the next generation by actually trying to improve the Somali economy which would stop as manny desperate people join terrorist organizations.

that would require nationbuilding, which we are frankly sick of.
France can have this one.

It's all fun and games until France decides it needs to fill the Algeria-sized hole in its heart.

[Jewish Underground State]

The USA and EU aren't running the world. China has challenged their ruling so many times and they have the power to back up. We have to quit blaming the US and EU for every event in a small east african country.

Not blaming the EU and US for everything, just saying you need to stop making poor nation completely dependent on them for money and start helping them become functioning states by giving them thing like farming materials, and training essential workers.

It was the nationalist government that brought Somalia down it's knees. They invaded ethiopia. Then the USSR and USA got into a proxy conflict because of that. The Somali government is to blame not the USA. Plus if we got involved we'd just bomb schools.

[Shofercia]

Considering that Somalia's population is only 15 million, I'm going to need a source for that millions of lives claim,

The Somali diaspora numbers over a million almost all of which passed through refugee camps that are primarily fed by USAID. And have been for about 30 years now. USAID has also been responsible for delivering enormous amounts of food aid inside Somalia. "Millions" might be on the edge of hyperbole. But only just. Everyone knows, or should know, what famines in the Horn of Africa are like. A famine in Ethiopia in the 80s killed 1.2 million, and that only lasted 2 years. Somalia, and Somali refugees, have been experiencing food insecurity for about 30 years.

as your argument is that the US saved over 13% of Somalia's population with just a few hundred troops seems a bit odd.

I did not argue that.

Millions implies 2 million or more, and if you divided 2 million by 15 million you get... wait for it... 13%! Or are we using the Amber Heard definition of millions?

Also, according to the US Census, there were 183 thousand Somali living in the US out of whom 76 thousand were foreign born. That's a margin of error of 81.7% from your million citation, which makes you qualified for the Newsom Administration. So no, we didn't have USAID bringing over a million Somali to the US. Now you can claim that it's somehow a million in the US/EU, but even the most generous counting is far below that. If you're talking about the overall diaspora, then you should know that Ethiopia's over 11 million and Kenya is over 2.5 million. Essentially, when it comes to praising USAID, you don't seem to have the data backing it up.

Not even the American Civil War, nor either World Wars lasted that long.

World Wars tend to be short sheerly because of their destructive nature.

that would require nationbuilding, which we are frankly sick of.
France can have this one.

No, all it would require is giving them some cows

That's a very moooooving plan

Go to Afghanistan and Iraq. We left those countries in an unstable mess. Iraq got worse then we came to it and Afghanistan is back under terrorist control

Iraq isn’t doing too bad now actually

US invaded Iraq, illegally, caused horrific levels of civilian casualties, with Lancet saying that over 650,000 deaths occurred, and I doubt that Saddam would've allowed ISIS to come to power, the same ISIS that raped, quite possibly millions of innocent girls, so yeah, compared to that, it's not doing too bad right now.

the only part of Somalia that seems stable is Somaliland and maybe Puntland. Interesting read

Recognize Somaliland's independence!

Haha no, I hold zero responsibility for Somalia's past, present, and future and if that's the case then so be it, it's not my country and not my people.

If you are American then you have bombed Somalia and destroyed schools and hospitals for your own interest.

We're not doing the whole "let's blame the people for the actions of the government" thing. This ain't Salem.

Do you expect a group of people who have been at war for 30 years to be able to afford any of these stuff

If they can afford to wage war, then they can afford to wage peace.

They can't. If a tribe wages peace and prospers, another tribe comes in and takes their shit, unless they can defend themselves.

Not blaming the EU and US for everything, just saying you need to stop making poor nation completely dependent on them for money and start helping them become functioning states by giving them thing like farming materials, and training essential workers.

It was the nationalist government that brought Somalia down it's knees. They invaded ethiopia. Then the USSR and USA got into a proxy conflict because of that. The Somali government is to blame not the USA. Plus if we got involved we'd just bomb schools.

"It's not our fault! And you don't want us involved, we'd just bomb your schools if we do!"

[Jewish Underground State]

It was the nationalist government that brought Somalia down it's knees. They invaded ethiopia. Then the USSR and USA got into a proxy conflict because of that. The Somali government is to blame not the USA. Plus if we got involved we'd just bomb schools.

"It's not our fault! And you don't want us involved, we'd just bomb your schools if we do!"

OHHHH NOW WE CAN BOMB SCHOOLS

One decade ago we were protesting this policy.

[Space Squid]

The Somali diaspora numbers over a million almost all of which passed through refugee camps that are primarily fed by USAID. And have been for about 30 years now. USAID has also been responsible for delivering enormous amounts of food aid inside Somalia. "Millions" might be on the edge of hyperbole. But only just. Everyone knows, or should know, what famines in the Horn of Africa are like. A famine in Ethiopia in the 80s killed 1.2 million, and that only lasted 2 years. Somalia, and Somali refugees, have been experiencing food insecurity for about 30 years.


I did not argue that.

Millions implies 2 million or more, and if you divided 2 million by 15 million you get... wait for it... 13%! Or are we using the Amber Heard definition of millions?

Also, according to the US Census, there were 183 thousand Somali living in the US out of whom 76 thousand were foreign born. That's a margin of error of 81.7% from your million citation, which makes you qualified for the Newsom Administration. So no, we didn't have USAID bringing over a million Somali to the US. Now you can claim that it's somehow a million in the US/EU, but even the most generous counting is far below that. If you're talking about the overall diaspora, then you should know that Ethiopia's over 11 million and Kenya is over 2.5 million. Essentially, when it comes to praising USAID, you don't seem to have the data backing it up.

This is pointlessly adversarial, and displays very poor reading comprehension. You continue to argue against points that I did not make, and I'm not going to indulge you.

[Shofercia]

Millions implies 2 million or more, and if you divided 2 million by 15 million you get... wait for it... 13%! Or are we using the Amber Heard definition of millions?

Also, according to the US Census, there were 183 thousand Somali living in the US out of whom 76 thousand were foreign born. That's a margin of error of 81.7% from your million citation, which makes you qualified for the Newsom Administration. So no, we didn't have USAID bringing over a million Somali to the US. Now you can claim that it's somehow a million in the US/EU, but even the most generous counting is far below that. If you're talking about the overall diaspora, then you should know that Ethiopia's over 11 million and Kenya is over 2.5 million. Essentially, when it comes to praising USAID, you don't seem to have the data backing it up.

This is pointlessly adversarial, and displays very poor reading comprehension. You continue to argue against points that I did not make, and I'm not going to indulge you.

First, 2/15 is 13%, I don't see how that's adversarial, that's just a fact. Second, where is your source for the million Somalis passing through USAID camps? Third, as long as Newsom fails to comprehend the basics of Gann, I will continue to make fun of him.

[Space Squid]

This is pointlessly adversarial, and displays very poor reading comprehension. You continue to argue against points that I did not make, and I'm not going to indulge you.

First, 2/15 is 13%, I don't see how that's adversarial, that's just a fact. Second, where is your source for the million Somalis passing through USAID camps? Third, as long as Newsom fails to comprehend the basics of Gann, I will continue to make fun of him.

I think anyone can see that you're pointlessly adversarial. That's just a fact.

In simplest terms (to avoid your strawmen): the US been the largest contributor of humanitarian aid to the Horn of Africa for the last 30 years. Many of the people receiving said aid are Somali, including Somali nationals, and the over 11 million Somalis who live in Ethiopia, and roughly 3 million who live in Kenya and Djibouti. It is not possible to say with certainty how many of those people would have died without aid, but over a 30-year period, a couple of million is not an outrageous number.

And I never mentioned emigration to the US or EU at all.

[Sordhau]

Give the entire failed state to the actually functional government in Hargeisa. It could only improve Somalia.

[Jewish Underground State]

Give the entire failed state to the actually functional government in Hargeisa. It could only improve Somalia.

Then we should treat Somalia like taiwan where it has claims but are not recognized. This would make sense and I would support it.

[The Aber]

The claim that there were chemical weapons in Iraq is constantly brought up on Russian television to undermine American clams that Russia is doing something illegal.

That’s not a reputation ruiner. Russia state media has done that “whataboutism” since the beginning of the Cold War.

Whenever the US coup’d a government or did something bad the Russian media would constantly bring it up to claim they aren’t doing anything wrong whatabout the US

For the love a God, don't be so brazen, or you might trigger the "H E A V I L Y A R M E D M A R X I S T - L E N I N I S T" in this here thread.

[Adamede]

Welp guess we're ging back to Afghanistan.

We should help Afghanistan, we should’ve go into it though.

What more do you want America to do? Any aid would only strengthen the Taliban government.

[Islamic Essarn]

Give the entire failed state to the actually functional government in Hargeisa. It could only improve Somalia.

Do you have any understanding of this conflict.

[Islamic Essarn]

the only part of Somalia that seems stable is Somaliland and maybe Puntland. Interesting read

Normally, I'm not in favour of any form of secessionism - especially in Africa where it has the potential to cause incredibly destructive conflicts - but there isn't really any alternative for Somaliland besides its current state of de facto independence. Sure, Somaliland's government has major problems, but at least it has a government - as well as a functional democracy.

But as for the topic of the thread, the only thing we can do is wait and see to what extent (if any) the current US intervention will affect the Somali conflict before jumping to conclusions. I will say (this is my opinion so don't take it as gospel) that "nation-building" is unlikely to happen in Somalia anytime soon since that requires a level of stability that the Somali government has not (and cannot) achieved. It would also (again, opinion) realistically require sustained investment from the international community since Somalia in its current state is unable to do so alone. This presents a problem (opinion) in that the current world doesn't allow for these sorts of things to happen; in fact, it inherently enables the endemic poverty and instability that we see in Somalia.

Do you understand the reason why succession happens so much in Africa. The reason is that the border shown on most world maps do not depict the cultural diversity of Africa. The reason for this : colonialism

[Islamic Essarn]

The Somali diaspora numbers over a million almost all of which passed through refugee camps that are primarily fed by USAID. And have been for about 30 years now. USAID has also been responsible for delivering enormous amounts of food aid inside Somalia. "Millions" might be on the edge of hyperbole. But only just. Everyone knows, or should know, what famines in the Horn of Africa are like. A famine in Ethiopia in the 80s killed 1.2 million, and that only lasted 2 years. Somalia, and Somali refugees, have been experiencing food insecurity for about 30 years.


I did not argue that.

Millions implies 2 million or more, and if you divided 2 million by 15 million you get... wait for it... 13%! Or are we using the Amber Heard definition of millions?

Also, according to the US Census, there were 183 thousand Somali living in the US out of whom 76 thousand were foreign born. That's a margin of error of 81.7% from your million citation, which makes you qualified for the Newsom Administration. So no, we didn't have USAID bringing over a million Somali to the US. Now you can claim that it's somehow a million in the US/EU, but even the most generous counting is far below that. If you're talking about the overall diaspora, then you should know that Ethiopia's over 11 million and Kenya is over 2.5 million. Essentially, when it comes to praising USAID, you don't seem to have the data backing it up.

Not even the American Civil War, nor either World Wars lasted that long.

World Wars tend to be short sheerly because of their destructive nature.

No, all it would require is giving them some cows

That's a very moooooving plan

Iraq isn’t doing too bad now actually

US invaded Iraq, illegally, caused horrific levels of civilian casualties, with Lancet saying that over 650,000 deaths occurred, and I doubt that Saddam would've allowed ISIS to come to power, the same ISIS that raped, quite possibly millions of innocent girls, so yeah, compared to that, it's not doing too bad right now.

the only part of Somalia that seems stable is Somaliland and maybe Puntland. Interesting read

Recognize Somaliland's independence!

If you are American then you have bombed Somalia and destroyed schools and hospitals for your own interest.

We're not doing the whole "let's blame the people for the actions of the government" thing. This ain't Salem.

If they can afford to wage war, then they can afford to wage peace.

They can't. If a tribe wages peace and prospers, another tribe comes in and takes their shit, unless they can defend themselves.

It was the nationalist government that brought Somalia down it's knees. They invaded ethiopia. Then the USSR and USA got into a proxy conflict because of that. The Somali government is to blame not the USA. Plus if we got involved we'd just bomb schools.

"It's not our fault! And you don't want us involved, we'd just bomb your schools if we do!"

That’s a weird way to use the word Salam. Do you mean this ain’t peace or are you just completely misusing the word. Also if your do mean this ain’t peace then that really does’t make much sense to me.

[The Aber]

The Somali diaspora numbers over a million almost all of which passed through refugee camps that are primarily fed by USAID. And have been for about 30 years now. USAID has also been responsible for delivering enormous amounts of food aid inside Somalia. "Millions" might be on the edge of hyperbole. But only just. Everyone knows, or should know, what famines in the Horn of Africa are like. A famine in Ethiopia in the 80s killed 1.2 million, and that only lasted 2 years. Somalia, and Somali refugees, have been experiencing food insecurity for about 30 years.


I did not argue that.

Millions implies 2 million or more, and if you divided 2 million by 15 million you get... wait for it... 13%! Or are we using the Amber Heard definition of millions?

Also, according to the US Census, there were 183 thousand Somali living in the US out of whom 76 thousand were foreign born. That's a margin of error of 81.7% from your million citation, which makes you qualified for the Newsom Administration. So no, we didn't have USAID bringing over a million Somali to the US. Now you can claim that it's somehow a million in the US/EU, but even the most generous counting is far below that. If you're talking about the overall diaspora, then you should know that Ethiopia's over 11 million and Kenya is over 2.5 million. Essentially, when it comes to praising USAID, you don't seem to have the data backing it up.

Not even the American Civil War, nor either World Wars lasted that long.

World Wars tend to be short sheerly because of their destructive nature.

No, all it would require is giving them some cows

That's a very moooooving plan

Iraq isn’t doing too bad now actually

US invaded Iraq, illegally, caused horrific levels of civilian casualties, with Lancet saying that over 650,000 deaths occurred, and I doubt that Saddam would've allowed ISIS to come to power, the same ISIS that raped, quite possibly millions of innocent girls, so yeah, compared to that, it's not doing too bad right now.

the only part of Somalia that seems stable is Somaliland and maybe Puntland. Interesting read

Recognize Somaliland's independence!

If you are American then you have bombed Somalia and destroyed schools and hospitals for your own interest.

We're not doing the whole "let's blame the people for the actions of the government" thing. This ain't Salem.

If they can afford to wage war, then they can afford to wage peace.

They can't. If a tribe wages peace and prospers, another tribe comes in and takes their shit, unless they can defend themselves.

It was the nationalist government that brought Somalia down it's knees. They invaded ethiopia. Then the USSR and USA got into a proxy conflict because of that. The Somali government is to blame not the USA. Plus if we got involved we'd just bomb schools.

"It's not our fault! And you don't want us involved, we'd just bomb your schools if we do!"

"World Wars tend to be short sheerly because of their destructive nature."
Well yeah, because no side is crazy or ambitious enough to want to go on. Both leaders and soldiers alike.

[Isle of Westland]

Millions implies 2 million or more, and if you divided 2 million by 15 million you get... wait for it... 13%! Or are we using the Amber Heard definition of millions?

Also, according to the US Census, there were 183 thousand Somali living in the US out of whom 76 thousand were foreign born. That's a margin of error of 81.7% from your million citation, which makes you qualified for the Newsom Administration. So no, we didn't have USAID bringing over a million Somali to the US. Now you can claim that it's somehow a million in the US/EU, but even the most generous counting is far below that. If you're talking about the overall diaspora, then you should know that Ethiopia's over 11 million and Kenya is over 2.5 million. Essentially, when it comes to praising USAID, you don't seem to have the data backing it up.




World Wars tend to be short sheerly because of their destructive nature.




That's a very moooooving plan




US invaded Iraq, illegally, caused horrific levels of civilian casualties, with Lancet saying that over 650,000 deaths occurred, and I doubt that Saddam would've allowed ISIS to come to power, the same ISIS that raped, quite possibly millions of innocent girls, so yeah, compared to that, it's not doing too bad right now.




Recognize Somaliland's independence!




We're not doing the whole "let's blame the people for the actions of the government" thing. This ain't Salem.




They can't. If a tribe wages peace and prospers, another tribe comes in and takes their shit, unless they can defend themselves.




"It's not our fault! And you don't want us involved, we'd just bomb your schools if we do!"

That’s a weird way to use the word Salam. Do you mean this ain’t peace or are you just completely misusing the word. Also if your do mean this ain’t peace then that really does’t make much sense to me.

Sorry I have to jump in on this one.

Salem, as in the Salem Witch Trials. Give it a search on t'internet. Though I'm not entirely sure of its suitability as a comparison in this case.

[Azania-]

Normally, I'm not in favour of any form of secessionism - especially in Africa where it has the potential to cause incredibly destructive conflicts - but there isn't really any alternative for Somaliland besides its current state of de facto independence. Sure, Somaliland's government has major problems, but at least it has a government - as well as a functional democracy.

But as for the topic of the thread, the only thing we can do is wait and see to what extent (if any) the current US intervention will affect the Somali conflict before jumping to conclusions. I will say (this is my opinion so don't take it as gospel) that "nation-building" is unlikely to happen in Somalia anytime soon since that requires a level of stability that the Somali government has not (and cannot) achieved. It would also (again, opinion) realistically require sustained investment from the international community since Somalia in its current state is unable to do so alone. This presents a problem (opinion) in that the current world doesn't allow for these sorts of things to happen; in fact, it inherently enables the endemic poverty and instability that we see in Somalia.

Do you understand the reason why succession happens so much in Africa. The reason is that the border shown on most world maps do not depict the cultural diversity of Africa. The reason for this : colonialism

Yes, I'm very well aware of that. Nowhere in my post did say otherwise.

[Islamic Essarn]

That’s a weird way to use the word Salam. Do you mean this ain’t peace or are you just completely misusing the word. Also if your do mean this ain’t peace then that really does’t make much sense to me.

Sorry I have to jump in on this one.

Salem, as in the Salem Witch Trials. Give it a search on t'internet. Though I'm not entirely sure of its suitability as a comparison in this case.

Oh, okay. Is’t a good comparison though since Salem was where they blamed women (especially black women) for children getting sick. This is a war in which i am saying that you celebrate the soldiers who took our lives.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Either split it up, and ensure that all new states would barely even have an army. Or just occupy it. They failed at governing themselves, so either there shouldn’t be a Somalia to govern, or someone else should govern them. Acting nice only gets you so far, and it isn’t far enough.

[Biladu Al Rafidayn]

Either split it up, and ensure that all new states would barely even have an army. Or just occupy it. They failed at governing themselves, so either there shouldn’t be a Somalia to govern, or someone else should govern them. Acting nice only gets you so far, and it isn’t far enough.

Splitting it apart gets you into more war. Ethiopia might decide that it wants a coastline, each of those statelets might attack each other. Occupying it gets you a full revolt by everyone, congrats. Maybe it’s kinda hard to govern a country that is falling apart, no? What’s a random farmer gonna do about the government? Start a revolution?

[Jewish Underground State]

Either split it up, and ensure that all new states would barely even have an army. Or just occupy it. They failed at governing themselves, so either there shouldn’t be a Somalia to govern, or someone else should govern them. Acting nice only gets you so far, and it isn’t far enough.

Splitting it apart gets you into more war. Ethiopia might decide that it wants a coastline, each of those statelets might attack each other. Occupying it gets you a full revolt by everyone, congrats. Maybe it’s kinda hard to govern a country that is falling apart, no? What’s a random farmer gonna do about the government? Start a revolution?

Falling apart?

Somalia has already fell apart.

[Islamic Essarn]

Either split it up, and ensure that all new states would barely even have an army. Or just occupy it. They failed at governing themselves, so either there shouldn’t be a Somalia to govern, or someone else should govern them. Acting nice only gets you so far, and it isn’t far enough.

It’s better just to help the people get by, by building some schools hospitals and training people to work in them and also to give them stuff to use in agroculture.

[Islamic Essarn]

Either split it up, and ensure that all new states would barely even have an army. Or just occupy it. They failed at governing themselves, so either there shouldn’t be a Somalia to govern, or someone else should govern them. Acting nice only gets you so far, and it isn’t far enough.

Splitting it apart gets you into more war. Ethiopia might decide that it wants a coastline, each of those statelets might attack each other. Occupying it gets you a full revolt by everyone, congrats. Maybe it’s kinda hard to govern a country that is falling apart, no? What’s a random farmer gonna do about the government? Start a revolution?

I think we should fully recognize Somaliland

[Sordhau]

Either split it up, and ensure that all new states would barely even have an army. Or just occupy it. They failed at governing themselves, so either there shouldn’t be a Somalia to govern, or someone else should govern them. Acting nice only gets you so far, and it isn’t far enough.

It’s better just to help the people get by, by building some schools hospitals and training people to work in them and also to give them stuff to use in agroculture.

No one is going to do that out of the goodness of their heart. Any country that decides to invest in Somalia is going to protect their investment by whatever means necessary; i.e., turn Somalia into a client state in all but name. This is how all the major empires work these days.