Police Reform in the United States

[Thermodolia]

*depressing shit*

You could probably fill three mega threads worth of good cops getting fired for doing the right thing unfortunately

[Thermodolia]

First off the dam is nothing but a concrete wall. Tempe town lake isn’t actually really a lake but more like a retention pond, that shit is nasty.

Second the guy was on dry land before going into the water. He jumped

Indeed he did, the entire situation is bizarre because he had no real reason to do any of it. I'm just saying though, I wouldn't have gone in after him either, I'm not trained for it and he'd probably kill us both. I hate the cops a lot more than most here but I can't really fault them for doing the same thing I would have done, the guy won himself a Darwin Award and it's his own fault he died.

The guy was suicidal, anyone who willingly tries to “swim” in that lake is it’s nasty and smells terrible, he most likely got cold feet and instant regret the moment he hit the water.

Indeed he did, the entire situation is bizarre because he had no real reason to do any of it. I'm just saying though, I wouldn't have gone in after him either, I'm not trained for it and he'd probably kill us both. I hate the cops a lot more than most here but I can't really fault them for doing the same thing I would have done, the guy won himself a Darwin Award and it's his own fault he died.

Pretty fucked that cops in a town with multiple bodies of water aren't trained for water rescue.

Multiple? Tempe Town lake is the only real body of water. The rest are just dry canals and a few private lakes.

Rescuing people is the FD’s job. Remember Tempe is in Arizona, water really isn’t a thing here.

[Ifreann]

Indeed he did, the entire situation is bizarre because he had no real reason to do any of it. I'm just saying though, I wouldn't have gone in after him either, I'm not trained for it and he'd probably kill us both. I hate the cops a lot more than most here but I can't really fault them for doing the same thing I would have done, the guy won himself a Darwin Award and it's his own fault he died.

The guy was suicidal, anyone who willingly tries to “swim” in that lake is it’s nasty and smells terrible, he most likely got cold feet and instant regret the moment he hit the water.

Pretty fucked that cops in a town with multiple bodies of water aren't trained for water rescue.

Multiple? Tempe Town lake is the only real body of water. The rest are just dry canals and a few private lakes.

Rescuing people is the FD’s job. Remember Tempe is in Arizona, water really isn’t a thing here.

Tempe Town lake + private lakes = multiple bodies of water

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Take a leaf out of Sheriff Arpaio's book, and give them pink uniforms until they improve their performance.

[German Territories]

*depressing shit*

Now watch Lumen say how these bad cops just shouldn't be part of the police force.

[Saiwania]

They shouldn't jump in after him, but didn't have a rope or buoyant piece they could've thrown over to him?

[Thermodolia]

The guy was suicidal, anyone who willingly tries to “swim” in that lake is it’s nasty and smells terrible, he most likely got cold feet and instant regret the moment he hit the water.


Multiple? Tempe Town lake is the only real body of water. The rest are just dry canals and a few private lakes.

Rescuing people is the FD’s job. Remember Tempe is in Arizona, water really isn’t a thing here.

Tempe Town lake + private lakes = multiple bodies of water

The private lakes aren’t on public property though. The fire department is trained to rescue but the police aren’t because nobody is allowed to swim in the “lake” anyway

[Ifreann]

Tempe Town lake + private lakes = multiple bodies of water

The private lakes aren’t on public property though. The fire department is trained to rescue but the police aren’t because nobody is allowed to swim in the “lake” anyway

All the more reason they should be trained water rescue, since it's their job to keep people out of the lake.

[Salus Maior]

Ok if someone assaults and injures someone Im with who do I turn to see that person face charges?

Ideally you cope with it because there's no police and people are doing what they like and you have bigger issues on your hands.

What's a bigger issue than the probability of being assaulted and deprived by criminals?

Granted, the American police structure is criminal. But that's an argument against that system and not the idea of police/law enforcement/public security in general.

[American Legionaries]

Ideally you cope with it because there's no police and people are doing what they like and you have bigger issues on your hands.

What's a bigger issue than the probability of being assaulted and deprived by criminals?

Granted, the American police structure is criminal. But that's an argument against that system and not the idea of police/law enforcement/public security in general.

The idea of law enforcement is to use violence to force compliance to the beliefs of the state. An idea that is in and of itself objectionable to me.

[Salus Maior]

What's a bigger issue than the probability of being assaulted and deprived by criminals?

Granted, the American police structure is criminal. But that's an argument against that system and not the idea of police/law enforcement/public security in general.

The idea of law enforcement is to use violence to force compliance to the beliefs of the state. An idea that is in and of itself objectionable to me.

If the ideas of the state maintain public safety and prevent the fall of society into a Hobbesian state of nature, I think it's a good thing to enforce that.

[Kouralia]

In the UK, it can take almost three years and a whole load of mental and physical examinations before you're able to go onto the streets as a full fledged officer.
...
TL;DR Better training = less death

No, it takes between 6 and 18 weeks.

[American Legionaries]

The idea of law enforcement is to use violence to force compliance to the beliefs of the state. An idea that is in and of itself objectionable to me.

If the ideas of the state maintain public safety and prevent the fall of society into a Hobbesian state of nature, I think it's a good thing to enforce that.

The condition of society is irrelevant if I'm in a prison cell or dead.

[Salus Maior]

If the ideas of the state maintain public safety and prevent the fall of society into a Hobbesian state of nature, I think it's a good thing to enforce that.

The condition of society is irrelevant if I'm in a prison cell or dead.

I mean, I assume you're not intent on violating the rights of your fellow man.

[American Legionaries]

The condition of society is irrelevant if I'm in a prison cell or dead.

I mean, I assume you're not intent on violating the rights of your fellow man.

Of course not.

And if that's all the police used force to prevent, you'd hear no objection from me.

[Countesia]

In the UK, it can take almost three years and a whole load of mental and physical examinations before you're able to go onto the streets as a full fledged officer.
...
TL;DR Better training = less death

No, it takes between 6 and 18 weeks.

My bad, I was going off the apprenticeship programme they offer to become a constable. A friend of mine is doing the national detective programme.

Still, when you see the reports that break down the total average hours that a police officer from the UK and the US needs to spend training before they can receive a badge, is still vastly disproportionate. and the amount of police killings per 10 million people is even worse

In my honest opinion, what would solve this issue is a higher standard of training when becoming a police officer. Some police departments give someone a badge after only ten weeks of training, wit

In the UK, it can take almost three years and a whole load of mental and physical examinations before you're able to go onto the streets as a full fledged officer. the UK only saw around 206 police fatalities in 2020. 24 of those were road traffic accidents caused by police pursuits, so really that didn't involve the officer at all. 54 of those were suicides AFTER being in police custody. Which is likely more of a mental health issue than anything to do with police brutality.

Now in the US, 1,021 people were killed by law enforcement in that same year. Solely from fatal shootings. Makes you think.

TL;DR Better training = less death

British police might not kill as many criminals, but that doesn’t make them any better.

When I was in the U.K., all I saw was the police humiliate themselves as absolutely useless.

Maybe so, but I would put that down to the 34,000 police officer jobs that were cut. but at least the probable chance of them killing you is less.

[Betoni]

Mental breakdown isnt actually a medical term, so no.

I'm not a medical professional, so excuse me if I'm not using your preferred term for a mental breakdown.

A person acting erratically in a public place doesn't need a therapy session. They are not going to lie on a coach and talk about their parents.

They're not going to use this one, very specific type of therapy in this scenario - not sure why you think they would.

The amount of people that seems to think that psychiatrist or psychotherapists are some kind of fix it all handymen that just deal with mental health issues with a snap of their fingers is a bit alarmimg. Maybe thats why mental health is an issue pretty much everwhere.

My statement never indicated that psychiatrists or therapists are these fix-it-all people who can solve mental health issues magically, I don't know where you got that fantasy from but that's an impressive imagination to take my words and create an entire fabrication out of them. My post was suggesting that there are people medically trained and experienced in behavioral and mental health issues that are probably far more appropriate to respond to an unarmed person having a crisis in public than police officers who are going to point guns at them and shoot them dead.

And those people would be trained police officers that can deal with people behaving threateningly in public and not resort to pointing guns or shooting at the first opportunity. If you're going to make medical professionals deal with every public disturbance, you're necessarily taking these professionals away from their actual work. Besides, I wasn't being an asshole when I said that "mental breakdown" isn't a medical term. If the therapist doesn't know, and in these kind of situations they don't, the history of the patient or anything about them, they really cant help them or calm them any better than you could. Mental breakdown could be caused by any number of reasons, which aren't at all apparent from the outside. How do you think the therapist would be alerted to these kind of situations, who would know if a person is having a mental breakdown just by looking at the situation? There is no flash therapy that calms a raging addict or some other crazy. No therapist is ever going to sign up for calming the crazies on the street kind of job anyway. It would be a job for the cops or the ambulance crew, like it is now. I get that currently the way the US police reacts to any disturbance in public is too often to point a gun and shoot. I just think your solution isn't realistic at all.

[Everyday is Taco Tuesday]

Alright so I might get in trouble for even daring to say this but, honestly, if more cops were hurt/killed they might actually start treating civilians, of which they technically ARE, with respect. Now I'm not saying you should hurt or kill cops but the general attitude they have is that they are above recourse or repproach. When kids are more likely to be killed going to school than a cop is "doing their job" we have a serious problem, especially when cops are of the mind that they just don't have to stop shooters anymore.

In reality a much, much better solution would be for a weakening of what police unions, and public sector unions in general, can protect and make them on par with private sector unions as the problem is the workers themselves and noy the idea of unions. They should be required to wear a radio and bodycam while on the job. All expenses should be reviewable by the public and those who misuse funds should be terminated and charged with embezzling from whatever level of government it was. Judges and prosecutors also need to be reformed as to make them more impartial. If police know that any local judge is going to let them off it discourages change and as such all officers should be tried in other jurisdictions, and if a jury trial with a jury from this new jurisdiction, out of interest of fairness.

[Narland]

Following the massacre thread semi-threadjack(?) I decided to take it upon myself to create a thread for people to discuss the matter of the police in more detail and without clogging up a thread dedicated to a rather horrific instance of mass shooting.

Obviously, lots of people are upset with the status quo in the USA and the way the police operate. Many call for the police to be defunded, especially in the wake of the 2020 George Floyd protests/riots, which deeply polarised not just America, but many countries on issues such as systemic racism and gun violence.

Some would even suggest the police be abolished outright, though this is an incredibly fringe belief. I personally side with this group for the purposes of weakening the present state authority, but I don't think its practicable to institute and as such people should just be prepared to act in self-defense should they be the victim of an officer's aggression.

Thoughts, NSG?

The solution is not complicated, but it will be very hard to implement. In my lifetime police (in my State, Idaho) have gone from independent public civic organizations run by the voluntary support of the people, to state institutions (European sense) of the local level that are tools of, and utterly dependent upon the machinations of corrupt city politics, townish provincialism, incorporated bureaucratic stupidity, and graft/bribes/coercion from County, State (American sense) and Federal operations, legislation etc. (Viz., they went from being public organizations to state (European sense) run institutions with all of the deleterious effect that results from it -- like turning from a free country into a literal police state). The perversion was already complete for decades in cities like New York and Chicago, but to watch it happen here was disheartening. Top it off with antithetical court decisions (in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals) such that require police to protect the public property rights in general as its reason for existence, and to have as its main function the collection of revenue for the state (European sense) just adds to the madness.

For a while now, local police departments have been cursed with a Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde nature. They are burdened with two contrary tasks: to be both Law Enforcement Agents , and Constitutional Peace Officers at the same time and in the same relationship. There is a big difference between being a part of King George's goon squad, and being just one of the citizenry doing for one's fellow citizens that which they cannot do 24/7 (rightfully police themselves in a dutiful capacity so as to protect each and every individual's life, liberty, and justly gained property and in that order)).

The system has been broken for years (some of it by indifference, some by mistake, and some by design). But unless there is an impetus to return to Peelian Principles adopted to compliance with the Common Law (mode of the people's self-governance) and under Constitutional authority, the police can only get more broken. I wish I still had the book but from memory, some of them are:

1. Keep the peace. Maintain the public peace from crime and outbreak of general disorder intervening in lieu of mustering a posse, the militia, or the imposition of martial law.
2. Delegated Authority. Being mindful that police authority is a public service delegated from inherent right of the individual to police oneself such that the People are the police, and the police are of the people.
3. Constitutional Action. Maintaining respect for that authority by acting in lawful manner as any citizen would in fulfilling his obligation when performing a Citizen's arrest.
3. Separation of Powers. Keeping the police power as a civic organization separate and independent from political influences and state (British sense) function with no usurpation of the judicial or legislative power.
4. Public Service. Aiding and rendering assistance politely, impartially and dutifully though open (transparent) and honest operation in the daily affairs of the department so as to garner the public goodwill.
5. To be relentless in ridding it department of corruption and those who act in bad faith so that public trust is earned. Etc.

There was a list of about 20. But what is listed, would be a very good start.

[Big Bad Blue]

The cost of not reforming policing is high in Minneapolis. 166 ex-cops who cost the city hundreds of thousands in settlement costs are now collecting over $800k in disability bennies.

Over the course of Tyrone Barze’s 12-year MPD career, he racked up six lawsuits that cost the city more than $344,000.

In 2014, Barze was caught on video tackling a man who had been collecting signatures for a voting rights petition. Witnesses said Barze threatened to shoot them when they tried to intervene.

Barze, who at one time was a school resource officer, was also sued for choking an 18-year-old developmentally disabled student — causing him to lose consciousness — when he refused to stand up to be searched. The city settled with the student for $140,000.

Barze was also sued for punching a Maple Grove woman in the face, knocking her unconscious, when she tried to record him with her cell phone as he responded to a dispute over a cab fare in 2014. The city paid $82,000 for that, according to the Star Tribune.

He was also sued for pepper spraying the general manager of an Uptown bar while working off duty, for which the city settled for more than $34,000.

And the city settled for $62,500 after he was sued for beating a man unconscious outside a Dinkytown bar, according to the Star Tribune.

His file contains at least 17 misconduct complaints, four of which were sustained and resulted in discipline.

He got a disability pension, and is receiving more than $56,000 per year in pension benefits, and received a $195,000 workers’ comp settlement from the city.

Two officers involved in bar fight

Workers’ comp settlements also went to two of three Minneapolis police officers cited for assault, disorderly conduct and criminal damage to property in 2012 in connection with a racially charged bar fight while off duty in Apple Valley.

Andrew Allen and Christopher Bennett were alleged to have joined a group of white men who followed a group of Black men into a bar parking lot, knocked one of them down and beat him while hurling racial slurs, according to the Star Tribune.

Charges against Allen were dropped, and Bennett pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct and was suspended but stayed on the force until last year.

Bennett had 16 misconduct complaints in his file, with three sustained.

Allen had nine complaints; none sustained.

Bennett settled his workers’ comp claim with the city for $175,000, and Allen settled for $170,000.

Bennett is receiving nearly $57,000 per year in disability pension benefits, and Allen more than $52,000 annually.

Officer involved in Terrance Franklin killing

Andrew Stender was one of five police officers on a SWAT team that shot Terrance Franklin 10 times in a basement of an Uptown home in 2013.

A grand jury decided not to indict the officers, but a video obtained by Time magazine raised new questions about the police version of what happened. The Star Tribune reported in November that Stender and two other officers involved had retained lawyers and were talking to county prosecutors.

Stender was also accused of harassing Officer Yvonne “Bonnie” Edwards over the course of four years while working in the K-9 unit where Stender was a supervisor. The City Council approved a $225,000 settlement with Edwards.

Former MPD Police Chief Medaria Arradondo demoted Stender from sergeant to officer one year ago — two and a half years after the city began investigating Edwards’ harassment claims.

His file contains 23 misconduct complaints, two of them sustained.

The City Council approved a $195,000 workers’ comp settlement with him in October, and he left the department in February after 30 years. He is also receiving more than $128,000 per year in disability pension benefits, according to PERA.

Punched a handcuffed man

In 2016, Alexander Brown and another officer punched a handcuffed, Native American man in the face, breaking his nose and possibly causing a traumatic brain injury, according to discipline documents.

The officers also put a spit hood over his head, and then an EMT injected him with ketamine; doctors had to intubate the man to keep him breathing, according to arbitration documents.

Brown was fired over it, but then he sued the city, claiming it agreed to rehire him and then backed out of the deal, according to the Star Tribune.

He got his job back, and last year he won a $175,000 workers’ comp settlement with the city. He is getting more than $46,000 annually in early retirement benefits.

And there are many more

The city was sued when Craig Taylor was accused of hitting a bystander while executing a 2008 search warrant. He hit the man so hard that the man lost control of his bowels. The city paid nearly $500,000 to settle a federal lawsuit. Taylor received a $175,000 workers’ comp settlement and is receiving more than $73,000 per year in disability pension benefits.

The city was sued when Sherry Appledorn was accused of stomping on a man’s back, kicking him a dozen times and using a Taser on him twice while apprehending a car break-in suspect in 2008. The city settled with the man for $125,000. Appledorn, who has a lengthy complaint file, received a $160,000 workers’ comp settlement.

Thomas Bernardson was accused of punching a man so hard he suffered a concussion. He was convicted of misdemeanor fifth-degree assault and MPD suspended him, but he kept his state license and his job. Bernardson received a $175,000 workers’ comp settlement.

[San Lumen]

posted this in the US politics thread but thought it belonged here too.

https://www.weareiowa.com/video/news/po ... 8de22cad59
People talk all the time about wanting reform to the criminal justice system and police. Here is how you get it. Many places vote for sheriff too.

Kimberly Graham won the Democratic primary for Polk County DA. Des Moines, Iowa's capital is the county seat.

[Pangurstan]

Here's an interesting Atlantic article about this: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ty/661199/

Personally I think that police reform is urgently needed but police abolition is either extremely stupid or completely meaningless depending on how it's used. Besides, "abolishing" the police by reorganizing them along the lines of other countries' police forces law enforcement institutions, like the French gendarmie, won't end police brutality.

[Big Bad Blue]

Good old Minneapolis is spending US$1m to fight police reform

But don't worry, they can get some of it back from privileged white people paying off-duty MPS cops to conduct extra patrols in low-crime neighborhoods

[San Lumen]

Here's an interesting Atlantic article about this: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ty/661199/

Personally I think that police reform is urgently needed but police abolition is either extremely stupid or completely meaningless depending on how it's used. Besides, "abolishing" the police by reorganizing them along the lines of other countries' police forces law enforcement institutions, like the French gendarmie, won't end police brutality.

This is why if people ran on Reform the police not defunding the police wouldn't tune them out.

[Ifreann]

Here's an interesting Atlantic article about this: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ty/661199/

Personally I think that police reform is urgently needed but police abolition is either extremely stupid or completely meaningless depending on how it's used. Besides, "abolishing" the police by reorganizing them along the lines of other countries' police forces law enforcement institutions, like the French gendarmie, won't end police brutality.

This is why if people ran on Reform the police not defunding the police wouldn't tune them out.

Who cares what the police think?