Police Reform in the United States

[Kannap]

Abolish it, full stop. Build more homeless shelters, fund free drug rehabilitation centers, completely overhaul the education system, completely legalize abortion & institute free college.

And who is going to enforce the law? Someone gets murdered. Who is going to do the investigation and press charges?

When it comes to serious crimes, only 11% result in arrests and only 2% result in conviction. As it currently stands, we're paying the police mountains of money to handle this issue when they're just... not

Then call the prosecutors office

Why should I have too? The police show up and do an investigation first. I shouldn't have to ask for one.

Is your hypothetical where your friend is attacked and the assailant, for whatever reason, doesn't attack you and just leaves? If so, what do you expect the police to do by the time they get there? Shrug their shoulders?

If you don't know who the guy is, complete stranger, best you can do is your best guess at a description of what he looks like - which will be inaccurate because you probably didn't get a good look or didn't have time to get a good look, and hopefully, were more worried about calling an ambulance for your friend - and point them in the direction he ran away, which also won't be useful because he's long gone by the time the police turn up. The police might make a report of the incident if they're not in a pissy mood that afternoon and then they might share a description of the man with the news. Given the aforementioned percentages above, it's unlikely the police ever find the guy - or, if they do, that they do anything about it.

Might not be long before the laws of the state say that as a gay man, you are a criminal. Certainly abortion will be criminalised in a few months. Several states are passing laws requiring that children be subjected to internal and external examination of their anatomy to stop the hated transes from playing sports.

Not in my state.

It's statements like these that leave the implication that you don't care about anybody but yourself. Not everybody lives in New York.

Before this turns into a threadjack, let me just say

So even matters not mentioned in the constitution come under 10th Amendment restrictions unless congress is explicitly or implicitly authorised by a specific part of the constitution.

The constitution doesn't mention abortion one way or the other and I won't post my moral views on it as whatever I say I'll offend somebody.
Returning to topic:
abolishing the police on a federal level is also against the 10th Amendment.

This is correct. The police are on the state, county and municipal level. There is no national police force in the US.

But, as you said, these are the folks who "uphold law and order." In the United States, federal law trumps state law. If there is ever a federal ban on same-sex marriage or abortion, it doesn't matter what New York law says in support of abortion: it's illegal. And cops are gleefully and happily going to brutalize people for it.

[Hukhalia]

i just feel like people generally forget that obeying the law is not in all instances morally necessary, and that in fact many times it is morally correct to disobey it. where the police exist in relation to this determines their character

[Cantport]

And who is going to enforce the law? Someone gets murdered. Who is going to do the investigation and press charges?

When it comes to serious crimes, only 11% result in arrests and only 2% result in conviction. As it currently stands, we're paying the police mountains of money to handle this issue when they're just... not

Why should I have too? The police show up and do an investigation first. I shouldn't have to ask for one.

Is your hypothetical where your friend is attacked and the assailant, for whatever reason, doesn't attack you and just leaves? If so, what do you expect the police to do by the time they get there? Shrug their shoulders?

If you don't know who the guy is, complete stranger, best you can do is your best guess at a description of what he looks like - which will be inaccurate because you probably didn't get a good look or didn't have time to get a good look, and hopefully, were more worried about calling an ambulance for your friend - and point them in the direction he ran away, which also won't be useful because he's long gone by the time the police turn up. The police might make a report of the incident if they're not in a pissy mood that afternoon and then they might share a description of the man with the news. Given the aforementioned percentages above, it's unlikely the police ever find the guy - or, if they do, that they do anything about it.

Not in my state.

It's statements like these that leave the implication that you don't care about anybody but yourself. Not everybody lives in New York.

This is correct. The police are on the state, county and municipal level. There is no national police force in the US.

But, as you said, these are the folks who "uphold law and order." In the United States, federal law trumps state law. If there is ever a federal ban on same-sex marriage or abortion, it doesn't matter what New York law says in support of abortion: it's illegal. And cops are gleefully and happily going to brutalize people for it.

If New York State seceded from the union, how do you know what side the different state and local police officers would all be on?

[Washington Resistance Army]

And who is going to enforce the law? Someone gets murdered. Who is going to do the investigation and press charges?

When it comes to serious crimes, only 11% result in arrests and only 2% result in conviction. As it currently stands, we're paying the police mountains of money to handle this issue when they're just... not

Even if we just restrict to murder like in Lumen's example, something like half of murder cases never even have a suspect or arrest made. Statistically speaking I could go out and murder someone right now and as long as I take some basic precautions to not caught, I'll get away with it forever. Real life is not television, people can and do get away with crimes all the time.

[Cantport]

When it comes to serious crimes, only 11% result in arrests and only 2% result in conviction. As it currently stands, we're paying the police mountains of money to handle this issue when they're just... not

Even if we just restrict to murder like in Lumen's example, something like half of murder cases never even have a suspect or arrest made. Statistically speaking I could go out and murder someone right now and as long as I take some basic precautions to not caught, I'll get away with it forever. Real life is not television, people can and do get away with crimes all the time.

I googled UK statistics and most murders are solved, if you have good forensics and cross-reference it with the DNA of convicts you could quite easily solve a robbery-murder or home-invasion murder.
Domestic murders you know who the suspect is.
I think I remember reading that most sexual murders are committed by people with previous convictions.

So that's four types of murders that can be solved by cross-referencing with the DNA of convicts.
(Source showing most UK murders are detected: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849)

[Washington Resistance Army]

Even if we just restrict to murder like in Lumen's example, something like half of murder cases never even have a suspect or arrest made. Statistically speaking I could go out and murder someone right now and as long as I take some basic precautions to not caught, I'll get away with it forever. Real life is not television, people can and do get away with crimes all the time.

I googled UK statistics and most murders are solved, if you have good forensics and cross-reference it with the DNA of convicts you could quite easily solve a robbery-murder or home-invasion murder.
Domestic murders you know who the suspect is.
I think I remember reading that most sexual murders are committed by people with previous convictions.

So that's four types of murders that can be solved by cross-referencing with the DNA of convicts.

I'm not familiar with British crime stats in this regard, I was referring to the United States with the 50ish percent unsolved number. That's just a nationwide average, in some areas the rate is actually even lower than that. Southside Chicago has something a 22% solved murder rate.

[Thermodolia]

I googled UK statistics and most murders are solved, if you have good forensics and cross-reference it with the DNA of convicts you could quite easily solve a robbery-murder or home-invasion murder.
Domestic murders you know who the suspect is.
I think I remember reading that most sexual murders are committed by people with previous convictions.

So that's four types of murders that can be solved by cross-referencing with the DNA of convicts.

I'm not familiar with British crime stats in this regard, I was referring to the United States with the 50ish percent unsolved number. That's just a nationwide average, in some areas the rate is actually even lower than that. Southside Chicago has something a 22% solved murder rate.

The southside rates aren’t helped by the fact that the cops literally don’t patrol half the area

[Thermodolia]

Even if we just restrict to murder like in Lumen's example, something like half of murder cases never even have a suspect or arrest made. Statistically speaking I could go out and murder someone right now and as long as I take some basic precautions to not caught, I'll get away with it forever. Real life is not television, people can and do get away with crimes all the time.

I googled UK statistics and most murders are solved, if you have good forensics and cross-reference it with the DNA of convicts you could quite easily solve a robbery-murder or home-invasion murder.
Domestic murders you know who the suspect is.
I think I remember reading that most sexual murders are committed by people with previous convictions.

So that's four types of murders that can be solved by cross-referencing with the DNA of convicts.
(Source showing most UK murders are detected: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849)

The problem is when you don’t have a body. The US is massive.

It’s very easy to hide a body in the US and nobody would be the wiser for decades

[Kannap]

Even if we just restrict to murder like in Lumen's example, something like half of murder cases never even have a suspect or arrest made. Statistically speaking I could go out and murder someone right now and as long as I take some basic precautions to not caught, I'll get away with it forever. Real life is not television, people can and do get away with crimes all the time.

I googled UK statistics and most murders are solved, if you have good forensics and cross-reference it with the DNA of convicts you could quite easily solve a robbery-murder or home-invasion murder.
Domestic murders you know who the suspect is.
I think I remember reading that most sexual murders are committed by people with previous convictions.

So that's four types of murders that can be solved by cross-referencing with the DNA of convicts.
(Source showing most UK murders are detected: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849)

Your source implies the opposite:

This graph suggests that in 2018 and 2019, about 8% of instances of "violence against the person" (where I'm assuming murder categorically falls since the graph doesn't nail individual crimes) result in "a charge or court summons." That's all crimes of "violence against the person," we can infer murder makes up a smaller percentage of the whole since it's only a single part of what falls under this category. Also, this data is just what crimes result in a charge or court summons taking place, which doesn't always result in conviction, so the percentage of offenders who are charged, tried, and convicted is likely much, much lower than what the data here suggests.

Of course, this data doesn't explicitly address murder, and therefore doesn't uphold your claim that "most murders in the UK are solved."

[Hamidiye]

You might start to train them properly, like all those countries with better crime statistics usually do.

[Cantport]

I googled UK statistics and most murders are solved, if you have good forensics and cross-reference it with the DNA of convicts you could quite easily solve a robbery-murder or home-invasion murder.
Domestic murders you know who the suspect is.
I think I remember reading that most sexual murders are committed by people with previous convictions.

So that's four types of murders that can be solved by cross-referencing with the DNA of convicts.
(Source showing most UK murders are detected: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849)

Your source implies the opposite:

This graph suggests that in 2018 and 2019, about 8% of instances of "violence against the person" (where I'm assuming murder categorically falls since the graph doesn't nail individual crimes) result in "a charge or court summons." That's all crimes of "violence against the person," we can infer murder makes up a smaller percentage of the whole since it's only a single part of what falls under this category. Also, this data is just what crimes result in a charge or court summons taking place, which doesn't always result in conviction, so the percentage of offenders who are charged, tried, and convicted is likely much, much lower than what the data here suggests.

Of course, this data doesn't explicitly address murder, and therefore doesn't uphold your claim that "most murders in the UK are solved."

It mentioned in the article somewhere else outside of the chart that 'most murders are solved".
A higher proportion of murders are solved than other violent crimes because of the amount of time and money spent on them.

You might start to train them properly, like all those countries with better crime statistics usually do.

Yeah, I'd establish four years of training (two years in the classroom and then two years on the street) for non-graduates and for graduates,10 months spent in the classroom followed by 2 years spent on the street.

[Bear Stearns]

it is highly suspicious that federal police have a subtantially higher conviction rate than any other police force in the country

[Esternial]

it is highly suspicious that federal police have a subtantially higher conviction rate than any other police force in the country

Is it?

I'd assume the federal police would have more resources and can afford to be more discerning in who they hire to the force, given they operate on a wider scale.

[Bear Stearns]

it is highly suspicious that federal police have a subtantially higher conviction rate than any other police force in the country

Is it?

I'd assume the federal police would have more resources and can afford to be more discerning in who they hire to the force, given they operate on a wider scale.

it's totally that not that they can get away with jury intimidation, evidence tampering, and leveraging their relationships across the justice department and court system.

[Informed Consent]

it is highly suspicious that federal police have a subtantially higher conviction rate than any other police force in the country

Not really.
The federal process from agent to attorney general is much more streamlined and efficient mostly by benefit of being a more monolithic construct with no one to answer to beyond the constitution itself.

The variety in politics and potential conflicts of interests between local levels make the arrest to conviction process for city, county, and state officers and attorneys very murky and downright bizarre at times when there is a federal tangent in the case.

Either way, it is important to remember that it is a two tier process.
It is the LEO's job to make the arrest, and supply prosecutors with evidence.
It is the prosecutors job to present the evidence effectively in court for a conviction.
What should be a more friendly version of baseball where pitcher and batter work together to knock the ball out of the park still gets as contentious and corrupt as any other occupation where politics and personality color the office.

[Kannap]

Is it?

I'd assume the federal police would have more resources and can afford to be more discerning in who they hire to the force, given they operate on a wider scale.

it's totally that not that they can get away with jury intimidation, evidence tampering, and leveraging their relationships across the justice department and court system.

State and local police engage in such behavior too, national agencies just have more resources, staff, and funding at their disposal.

[Esternial]

Is it?

I'd assume the federal police would have more resources and can afford to be more discerning in who they hire to the force, given they operate on a wider scale.

it's totally that not that they can get away with jury intimidation, evidence tampering, and leveraging their relationships across the justice department and court system.

Can always be all of the above.

[Sordhau]

The first step to police reform in the United States is to allow citizens to shoot back if facing violent and unprovoked aggression from the butchers in blue.

The second step is a proletarian revolution removing the cringe bourgeois police and creating a based people's police.

[San Lumen]

I'm not familiar with British crime stats in this regard, I was referring to the United States with the 50ish percent unsolved number. That's just a nationwide average, in some areas the rate is actually even lower than that. Southside Chicago has something a 22% solved murder rate.

The southside rates aren’t helped by the fact that the cops literally don’t patrol half the area

And they have the audacity to wonder why community police relations are awful.

[Hukhalia]

The first step to police reform in the United States is to allow citizens to shoot back if facing violent and unprovoked aggression from the butchers in blue.

The second step is a proletarian revolution removing the cringe bourgeois police and creating a based people's police.

finally someone gets it fr

[San Lumen]

The first step to police reform in the United States is to allow citizens to shoot back if facing violent and unprovoked aggression from the butchers in blue.

The second step is a proletarian revolution removing the cringe bourgeois police and creating a based people's police.

No to both. More violence isn't the answer nor is a revolution based on an ideology that doesn't work in practice.

[Hukhalia]

The first step to police reform in the United States is to allow citizens to shoot back if facing violent and unprovoked aggression from the butchers in blue.

The second step is a proletarian revolution removing the cringe bourgeois police and creating a based people's police.

No to both. More violence isn't the answer nor is a revolution based on an ideology that doesn't work in practice.

cops started the violence, self-defense is entirely valid

[Paddy O Fernature]

The first step to police reform in the United States is to allow citizens to shoot back if facing violent and unprovoked aggression from the butchers in blue.

The second step is a proletarian revolution removing the cringe bourgeois police and creating a based people's police.

No to both. More violence isn't the answer nor is a revolution based on an ideology that doesn't work in practice.

Violence might not be the answer, but it certainly is a answer.

[Hukhalia]

No to both. More violence isn't the answer nor is a revolution based on an ideology that doesn't work in practice.

Violence might not be the answer, but it certainly is a answer.

i like to think of violence as a question, to which the answer is yes

[Paddy O Fernature]

Violence might not be the answer, but it certainly is a answer.

i like to think of violence as a question, to which the answer is yes

In which case, would the hard questions be to what extent to apply said violence and how much application is needed?