Taiwan and Scottish independence - pros and cons?

[Europa Undivided]

the island of taiwan should immediately be returned to china so that the devastating chinese civil war can finally end and the world can be one step closer to peace

Found the CCP apologist

[-Astoria-]

the island of taiwan should immediately be returned to china so that the devastating chinese civil war can finally end and the world can be one step closer to peace

Found the CCP apologist

Knowing them, it's more likely just shitposting.

[Perikuresu]

the island of taiwan should immediately be returned to china so that the devastating chinese civil war can finally end and the world can be one step closer to peace

Found the CCP apologist

Everyone else found out years ago

[The Islamic Earth]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

[Perikuresu]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

cultural preservation can still happen without separatism

[Europa Undivided]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

*Laughs in Irish*

[Risottia]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

Most Scots are of Germanic stock, and most of them can't speak Gaelic. The point of being a Scot isn't linguistic identity.

Or, as someone said: in Scotland's story I read that they came, the Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane. But so did the Irishman, Jew and Ukraine: they're all Scotland's Story and they're all worth the same.

[Sordhau]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

Most Scots are of Germanic stock, and most of them can't speak Gaelic. The point of being a Scot isn't linguistic identity.

Or, as someone said: in Scotland's story I read that they came, the Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane. But so did the Irishman, Jew and Ukraine: they're all Scotland's Story and they're all worth the same.

Saying "most Scots are of Germanic stock" is highly inaccurate. The majority of the people in the British Isles--including the English themselves--share common, Celtic ancestry. Neither Anglo-Saxons nor Norsemen came with enough settlers to entirely supplant the native Celtic Britons, but instead "Anglicized" and "Nordicized" the locals. Germanic ancestry concentrations are highest in the areas around York, Southern England, and Eastern England. Other regions are either mixed or mostly Celtic even if culturally English.

[Ifreann]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

Most Scots are of Germanic stock, and most of them can't speak Gaelic. The point of being a Scot isn't linguistic identity.

Or, as someone said: in Scotland's story I read that they came, the Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane. But so did the Irishman, Jew and Ukraine: they're all Scotland's Story and they're all worth the same.

The Scots spring forth fully formed from holes in the ground.

[The Archregimancy]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

Most Scots are of Germanic stock, and most of them can't speak Gaelic. The point of being a Scot isn't linguistic identity.

The second sentence is true; the first is at best a gross oversimplification.

Modern Scotland was formed out of a gradual union of Pictish, Gaelic (a term which is doing a lot of heavy lifting for traditions that cross between modern Scotland and Ireland), Norse, Brythonic/Welsh, Anglo-Saxon peoples, and Anglo-Norman peoples, languages, and sociocultural traditions. The growth of a modern sense of a separate Scottish national identity that unites all of these traditions only really arises in the 19th century, when Lowland Scots come to appropriate the traditions of Highlanders that they'd previously disdained.

In that sense, while it's certainly true to note that uncomplicatedly calling Scots 'Celts' is modern term of convenience that doesn't stand up to much scrutiny, stating 'most Scots are of Germanic stock' as a counterargument is itself a significant oversimplification.

[The Archregimancy]

Most Scots are of Germanic stock, and most of them can't speak Gaelic. The point of being a Scot isn't linguistic identity.

Or, as someone said: in Scotland's story I read that they came, the Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane. But so did the Irishman, Jew and Ukraine: they're all Scotland's Story and they're all worth the same.

The Scots spring forth fully formed from holes in the ground.

Nonsense.

The Celtic gods ripped us fully formed from the belly of the ur-haggis.

[Uan aa Boa]

... finally this rather glosses over the difficulty of forming a UK-wide governing coalition that includes the SNP.

A coalition involving the SNP is hard to imagine, but in 2015 Ed Miliband said that he would rater see the Tories remain in power than have any discussion at all with the SNP, while the SNP were left saying that in a hung parliament they would vote to make him Prime Minister anyway. There's literally no scenario in which the SNP would install a Tory government so Labour can take minimal cooperation for granted and don't have to offer anything in return.

The more confusing question is why Labour gets itself boxed into saying that the SNP are worse than the Tories. With the devolved powers given to it the SNP has very much delivered on what should be a Labour agenda - free prescriptions and personal care, no tuition fees, no internal market in the NHS. The constitutional question really ought to be neutral in terms of core Labour values, which could be pursued in an independent Scotland or a united kingdom. At some point Labour is going to need to articulate what the union is for, and why it's more important than what is traditionally the party's core programme. As it is Labour has been out-Laboured by the SNP and will never be able to take the gut-feeling unionist vote from the Tories, and that's why it looks likely to remain in a difficult situation in Scotland.

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

English may have squeezed out Gaelic, but that's not the same as England doing so. As has been said there are already plenty of measures such as schools in Gaelic medium being implemented within the UK. But it's not really a political issue, and not nearly enough people care strongly enough about it for it to swing a big decision such as independence. There are more Polish speakers than Gaelic speakers in Scotland, and the genuine Gaelic community (as opposed to Bord na Gaidhlig and other top-down bodies) in practice doesn't want to speak the language with those who learned it rather than inherited it. The language also has hyper-local variants and is different on each of the major islands, with the result that very few native speakers like the "offical" version which has been somewhat artificially constructed by academics. Unlike Welsh, it's almost certainly slipped below the critical level needed to survive as a genuine living language. You can send kids to a school that speaks Gaelic but that doesn't stop them speaking English in the playground. Token measures such as road signs and letterheads won't change that.

I was once at an event hosted by a Gaelic college where the speaker, before food was served, was winding up the college president about there being no Gaelic word for buffet. I wish the president had thought to respond that there's no English word for it either.

[Meadowfields]

the island of taiwan should immediately be returned to china so that the devastating chinese civil war can finally end and the world can be one step closer to peace

I could tell that you aren't Chinese because children in China are told that Taiwan is already part of China; you're basically admitting that Taiwan is currently independent or at least not part of China.

[Bonggongland]

I've supported Scottish independence for some time, however, they need a more diverse economy before they leave. Brexit showed how fractured the U.K is and the fact that the government hasn't done the sensible thing and devolved more powers shows how screwed they know they are. With SF holding largest party status in both sides of Ireland and with the SNP staying strong it's only a matter of time before the last vestiges of the empire crumble. Wales is trickier but even Labour seems to want a bit more devolution , only England stubbornly clings to the idea of an absolutist style unitary state in contrast to literally every major colony they had.

Taiwan is de facto independent and should remain so. We saw what China does when they took back HK. Taiwan on it's own will always be better off than under the yoke of Beijing.

[Region Caretaker 1]

What, precisely, are we trying to achieve by comparing Taiwan and Scotland given how socio-politically distinct these two entities are?

Next... 'Clipperton and Bouvetøya - pros and cons?'

Free land, oh free land! Free land for me!!!!

[Aymes]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

Most people in Scotland speak English.

[Alasiqak]

Taiwan is an integral part of the People's Republic of China, any attempt to pursue independence justifies retaliatory military action.

[Sordhau]

Taiwan is an integral part of the People's Republic of China, any attempt to pursue independence justifies retaliatory military action.

Taiwan has never been part of the PRC, let alone an "integral part" of it. Advocation for the island's annexation - against the explicit wishes of the people living there - is naked imperialism. Taiwan should not only be free of the PRC but free of the ROC as well, and fully decolonized to reverse the Sinicization of the island and it's people.

[BEEstreetz]

Pros and cons of Taiwanese formal independence (from ROC)

Pros: Would likely receive more international support if the identity presented was Taiwanese instead of directly rivalling Beijing's claim as 'China'';
Cons: Beijing would still consider it an integral part of China, so the international support it would receive would still be limited. The Blue Coalition would likely incite riots, there's a slim possibility that the movement would eventually even be infiltrated by PRC.

Pros and cons of Scottish independence

Pros: You get a ''neutral ground'' for honest negotiations between ROI and UK, since Scotland would likely have very low relations with both of them;
Cons: The ''Celtic-but-protestant-also-there's-the-Highlands'' identity crisis would have to be concluded

EDIT: Thread is asking about Taiwanese independence from ROC, not PRC

[Sordhau]

[align=justify]Pros and cons of Taiwanese formal independence

Again: this is not how "independence" is being used.

People, please read the OP. It's talking about Taiwanese independence from the ROC - not the PRC. Decolonization; not separatism. This is an important distinction.

[BEEstreetz]

Pros and cons of Taiwanese formal independence

Again: this is not how "independence" is being used.

People, please read the OP. It's talking about Taiwanese independence from the ROC - not the PRC. Decolonization; not separatism. This is an important distinction.

Oooh. I thought OP was misspelled, just checked other replies. I'll edit the original comment then, thanks for notice.

[Pasong Tirad]

It really should not be a controversial position to say that the anti-communist Han settler state that fled from Mao known as the Republic of China, which subjected the island and its inhabitants to a decades-long terror that was only recently abolished in favor of a more Western-style liberal democracy, should be replaced but by a new society decided upon by the island's inhabitants, not by irredentists in Beijing. The only way the people of Taiwan will truly be able to exercise their right to self-determination is if the threat of invasion is taken off the equation entirely.

[Kerwa]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

It’s like nobody cares about Norn. It’s disgusting Celt supremacy in action.

[Ifreann]

Pros and cons of Scottish independence

Pros: You get a ''neutral ground'' for honest negotiations between ROI and UK, since Scotland would likely have very low relations with both of them;

Very strange notion. For one there is no reason to believe that relations between Ireland and an independent Scotland would be anything but perfectly friendly, but regardless of that, the UK and Republic don't need a neutral ground for negotiations.

[Terra-Montes]

England is really destroying celtic languages so I believe it is important for the Celts to declare independence to preserve their languages

Most people in Scotland speak English.

his point exactly