Taiwan and Scottish independence - pros and cons?

[Sordhau]

(Also, Taiwan is rightful territory of the People's Republic of China and should be ceded or forcibly reclaimed.)

Since you seem keen to support imperialism and oppose self-determination I would highly recommend removing "communist" from your sig.

[Arcturus Novus]

(Also, Taiwan is rightful territory of the People's Republic of China and should be ceded or forcibly reclaimed.)

Since you seem keen to support imperialism and oppose self-determination I would highly recommend removing "communist" from your sig.

Lol. Lmao, even.

[Sordhau]

Since you seem keen to support imperialism and oppose self-determination I would highly recommend removing "communist" from your sig.

Lol. Lmao, even.

I don't find it funny at all that self-described "Leftists" openly endorse wars of conquest and aggression.

[Space Squid]

I for one am in favor of creating the United Kingdom of Scotland and Taiwan.

I propose a monarch be chosen from the prestigious house of Osmanoğlu.

[Pasong Tirad]

Lol. Lmao, even.

I don't find it funny at all that self-described "Leftists" openly endorse wars of conquest and aggression.

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

No, because you haven't successfully gotten any nation independent, meaning it is like the first example.

Is the author any less accomplished just because the events depicted in their books are fictional? No.

They're accomplished at making things up, not actually doing it.

[Makko Oko]

I don't find it funny at all that self-described "Leftists" openly endorse wars of conquest and aggression.

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

Apparently I missed a good ol' talk about communism! Yaaaaaaaaaaaay /s. If we're going to start quoting Lenin then we can't forget his good buddy Karl Marx! Let's go read The Communist Manifesto and practice Marxism! /s

I mean seriously though, communism and independence? Have we looked at Ukraine recently? Yeah the Kremlin clearly hated that, so do you really think communism is going to be a good force in independence for Taiwan?

[Pasong Tirad]

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

Apparently I missed a good ol' talk about communism! Yaaaaaaaaaaaay /s. If we're going to start quoting Lenin then we can't forget his good buddy Karl Marx! Let's go read The Communist Manifesto and practice Marxism! /s

I mean seriously though, communism and independence? Have we looked at Ukraine recently? Yeah the Kremlin clearly hated that, so do you really think communism is going to be a good force in independence for Taiwan?

I have no idea what you're talking about and what you think you're trying to say.

[Elonium]

This is a very sensitive topic so I'm going to have to be careful here.

Pros and cons of Taiwanese formal independence.

Pros: Nation would be free to establish its own path, embassies/consulates, international recognition now available.
Improved international relations. Taiwanese people do not recognize themselves as Chinese ( based on what I saw on Quora for a pros-and-cons of this);
Cons: Republic of China would not like it in any way, war with China, frostier international relations.

Pros and cons of Scottish independence

Pros: Scotland would have more of its own control over politics free of Westminster (source: netivist discussion), freedom to promote its own culture and identity, not bound by UK laws.
Cons: Can't use GBP as currency, many Scots still identify as British, citizenship issues as to who would qualify for Scots citizenship, maybe a debate akin to Juan Mari Bras and Puerto Rican citizenship, many companies exiting London / England creating economic issues; EU membership not guaranteed. Scotland could have its own currency pegged 1:1 with GBP, but this has problems of its own. Could lead to Northern Ireland and Wales leaving as NIxit and Walexit, causing major problems. Political instability for UK worse than or as bad as Brexit.

---

If I'm being honest here, I wouldn't like the United Kingdom to break up, it'd be a huge culture shock, and also, there's more damaging economic issues to consider for things like tourism and industry etc.

I'll admit to limited understanding of the issues here, but this is probably going to be a topical issue for many, many, many years to come.

What's your opinion on both of these?

Taiwan independence makes sense since it's a de facto independent country since the end of the chinese civil war. (btw Republic of China is the official name of Taiwan, if independence ever happens I think they will change that).
Scotland independence makes no sense, but if the locals want it they should have it.

[Ifreann]

Scotland and Taiwan are in no way comparable in terms of their political climate and reasons for wanting independence. Taiwan is actively under threat of Chinese invasion.

And Scotland isn't?

We all know Xi Jinping is preparing the People's Army for their inevitable victorious onslaught on Aberdeenshire.

Belt and Road(to Ellon).

[Europa Undivided]

What do you mean? Taiwan has always been independent. It is the true government of China and those Communist usurpers in West Taiwan are little more than pretenders.

[Sordhau]

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

Apparently I missed a good ol' talk about communism! Yaaaaaaaaaaaay /s. If we're going to start quoting Lenin then we can't forget his good buddy Karl Marx! Let's go read The Communist Manifesto and practice Marxism! /s

I mean seriously though, communism and independence? Have we looked at Ukraine recently? Yeah the Kremlin clearly hated that, so do you really think communism is going to be a good force in independence for Taiwan?

Literally what the fuck are you talking about.

Ukraine has nothing to do with Communism. The Kremlin isn't Communist.

Jesus Christ.

[Uan aa Boa]

Given the prevalence and power of multinational corporations;

"Split our labor union off from the bigger union, pros and cons?".

Cons.

It's literally all cons.

Unless you're straight up being persecuted and killed by the country in question (Applies to Taiwan tbh), there's no benefit unless your idea of "Benefit" is to be a scab. It makes literally everyone on earth worse off except the mega wealthy.


"Nah bro we'd totally run this shit way better.".

You will until the corporations enter a power struggle with your government which is now way, way, weaker and has less bargaining power.

If this were true then you'd have expected at least some large corporations to encourage Scottish independence at the time of the 2014 referendum. I don't recall a single example, however, whereas many supported the UK government backed campaign for the status quo.

Your idea is kind of predicated on the suggestion that governments stand up to corporations on behalf of the people. In reality it tends to be the other way round, especially when it comes to recent UK governments.

Can't remember the sources I read off the top but I remember seeing that there's definitely interest among some high-up Scottish officials to immediately join NATO (possibly also the EU?) if the independence movement succeeds. I don't think they'd be like, an especially wealthy or influential state when independent, but hey, who says they'd need to be?

An independent Scotland would absolutely aim to rejoin the EU. There are a few fringe groups that support independence outside Europe, but they are very fringe. The Scottish National Party that has run the devolved Scottish government since 2007 would also definitely seek NATO membership. This was a key debate in the party during its transition from single issue pressure group to mainstream political party, with some activists refusing to compromise their anti-nuclear principles. Some people left and joined the Greens or other smaller groups, but it was a long time ago and the question is pretty much settled.

[Arcturus Novus]

Lol. Lmao, even.

I don't find it funny at all that self-described "Leftists" openly endorse wars of conquest and aggression.

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

It is not counter to communism to suggest that a reactionary, openly anticommunist, secessionist regime ought to be dismantled. Especially one that the US empire clearly has a vested interest in keeping around as a satellite in East Asia.

Taiwan is a province of China. The majority consensus of the world - sans 13 countries and the Vatican - is that the People's Republic is the legitimate government of China. The so-called Republic of China is an illegitimate state and has no right to govern over rightful PRC territory, nor have they had that right for about 75 years after Guomindang forces lost in the Chinese Civil War and decided to keep their little holdout island.

Furthermore, Taiwanese independence from the PRC has many of the same problems that, say, Hong Kong or Tibetan independence have. The groups pushing for these have some legitimate concerns, to be sure, but there's more happening behind the scenes. A lot of astroturfing, a lot of support from all our favorite Western organizations, a vested interest in decimating China's political and economic influence. It's all color revolutions, all the time.

[Sordhau]

It is not counter to communism to suggest that a reactionary, openly anticommunist, secessionist regime ought to be dismantled. Especially one that the US empire clearly has a vested interest in keeping around as a satellite in East Asia.

No, it isn't. What is counter to Communism is to propose a country be invaded and occupied by another country because you don't like their government. That's imperialism; plain, simple.

Taiwan is a province of China.

At no point in it's history has the People's Republic of China ever occupied the island of Taiwan. Claims to the island are irredentist by definition, which is just another form of imperialism.

The majority consensus of the world - sans 13 countries and the Vatican - is that the People's Republic is the legitimate government of China.

Completely irrelevant.

The so-called Republic of China is an illegitimate state and has no right to govern over rightful PRC territory, nor have they had that right for about 75 years after Guomindang forces lost in the Chinese Civil War and decided to keep their little holdout island.

Countries do not have any "right" to territory they have never governed. The PRC has never governed Taiwan. The people of Taiwan have made it clear time and again that they do not want to be part of the PRC. The PRC therefor has no legitimate claim to the island as they have never owned it and the people living there don't want them to.

Furthermore, Taiwanese independence from the PRC has many of the same problems that, say, Hong Kong or Tibetan independence have.

Solutions, you mean. The PRC is the problem; independence is the solution.

The groups pushing for these have some legitimate concerns, to be sure, but there's more happening behind the scenes. A lot of astroturfing, a lot of support from all our favorite Western organizations,

Completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if foreigners support bids for independence; if the natives themselves support independence then there is no reason for us, as Leftists, to deny them their right to self-determination simply because we don't like the people who support them.

a vested interest in decimating China's political and economic influence.

The PRC is a state capitalist oligarchy that exerts it's imperial influence over weaker nations through a combination of military, political, and economic influence. Combating Chinese Imperialism is as much of a good thing as combating American Imperialism and Russian Imperialism. For all your talk of opposing reactionary regimes you sure don't seem to mind endorsing a regime that abandoned Socialism under Deng Xiaoping and is openly hostile to the working class in it's own country.

It's all color revolutions, all the time.

Color revolutions aren't always a bad thing.

[Mets Hayk]

I don't find it funny at all that self-described "Leftists" openly endorse wars of conquest and aggression.

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

It is not counter to communism to suggest that a reactionary, openly anticommunist, secessionist regime ought to be dismantled. Especially one that the US empire clearly has a vested interest in keeping around as a satellite in East Asia.

Taiwan is a province of China. The majority consensus of the world - sans 13 countries and the Vatican - is that the People's Republic is the legitimate government of China. The so-called Republic of China is an illegitimate state and has no right to govern over rightful PRC territory, nor have they had that right for about 75 years after Guomindang forces lost in the Chinese Civil War and decided to keep their little holdout island.

Furthermore, Taiwanese independence from the PRC has many of the same problems that, say, Hong Kong or Tibetan independence have. The groups pushing for these have some legitimate concerns, to be sure, but there's more happening behind the scenes. A lot of astroturfing, a lot of support from all our favorite Western organizations, a vested interest in decimating China's political and economic influence. It's all color revolutions, all the time.

Taiwan is reactionary now? Since when?

[Sordhau]

It is not counter to communism to suggest that a reactionary, openly anticommunist, secessionist regime ought to be dismantled. Especially one that the US empire clearly has a vested interest in keeping around as a satellite in East Asia.

Taiwan is a province of China. The majority consensus of the world - sans 13 countries and the Vatican - is that the People's Republic is the legitimate government of China. The so-called Republic of China is an illegitimate state and has no right to govern over rightful PRC territory, nor have they had that right for about 75 years after Guomindang forces lost in the Chinese Civil War and decided to keep their little holdout island.

Furthermore, Taiwanese independence from the PRC has many of the same problems that, say, Hong Kong or Tibetan independence have. The groups pushing for these have some legitimate concerns, to be sure, but there's more happening behind the scenes. A lot of astroturfing, a lot of support from all our favorite Western organizations, a vested interest in decimating China's political and economic influence. It's all color revolutions, all the time.

Taiwan is reactionary now? Since when?

Since always?

[Port Caverton]

I don't find it funny at all that self-described "Leftists" openly endorse wars of conquest and aggression.

The Right of Nations (Except Taiwan) to Self-Determination by V.I. Lenin.

It is not counter to communism to suggest that a reactionary, openly anticommunist, secessionist regime ought to be dismantled. Especially one that the US empire clearly has a vested interest in keeping around as a satellite in East Asia.

Taiwan is a province of China. The majority consensus of the world - sans 13 countries and the Vatican - is that the People's Republic is the legitimate government of China. The so-called Republic of China is an illegitimate state and has no right to govern over rightful PRC territory, nor have they had that right for about 75 years after Guomindang forces lost in the Chinese Civil War and decided to keep their little holdout island.

Furthermore, Taiwanese independence from the PRC has many of the same problems that, say, Hong Kong or Tibetan independence have. The groups pushing for these have some legitimate concerns, to be sure, but there's more happening behind the scenes. A lot of astroturfing, a lot of support from all our favorite Western organizations, a vested interest in decimating China's political and economic influence. It's all color revolutions, all the time.

China isn't even communist. Also reducing the influence of the Bing chilling is a good thing, actually.

[PhilTech]

For me, Taiwan's independence can make or break the situation in the South China Sea. An independence may result to Taiwan becoming a buffer state. This can also lead to China becoming more aggressive and make more unfounded territorial claims as a response to this.

[Makko Oko]

Apparently I missed a good ol' talk about communism! Yaaaaaaaaaaaay /s. If we're going to start quoting Lenin then we can't forget his good buddy Karl Marx! Let's go read The Communist Manifesto and practice Marxism! /s

I mean seriously though, communism and independence? Have we looked at Ukraine recently? Yeah the Kremlin clearly hated that, so do you really think communism is going to be a good force in independence for Taiwan?

Literally what the fuck are you talking about.

Ukraine has nothing to do with Communism. The Kremlin isn't Communist.

Jesus Christ.

I'll give you the part about the Kremlin not being communist, but they used to be, during the Soviet Union era. Honestly, Russia is more socialist than communist, just due to how the government's run, but I'm not wrong on the Ukraine mention. Ukraine used to be a state of the Soviet Union, then they broke off and gained independence on August 24th, 1991, which for the record, wouldn't have happened had the Soviet Union not collapsed.

Russia took back Crimea, now they're taking back Ukraine, you see where I'm going at here? Unprovoked wars are happening because Russia, specifically Putin, wants to reestablish the power of the Soviet Union. So to wrap it up, Russia may not be communist anymore, but it really looks like Putin wants to revive it.

[PhilTech]

So to wrap it up, Russia may not be communist anymore, but it really looks like Putin wants to revive it.

Wait Putin is a communists? Based on the videos I've watched, Putin wanted to conquer Ukraine to act as a buffer zone against the NATO allies. This has strategic importance since eastern Europe is relatively flat. And as far as I know, yes, Putin wants to bring back the glory days but not necessarily the communist side. Am I right?

If you have something, go hit me up hard because I know little about the European theatre (without going far from the OP of course).

[Sordhau]

Literally what the fuck are you talking about.

Ukraine has nothing to do with Communism. The Kremlin isn't Communist.

Jesus Christ.

I'll give you the part about the Kremlin not being communist, but they used to be, during the Soviet Union era. Honestly, Russia is more socialist than communist, just due to how the government's run, but I'm not wrong on the Ukraine mention. Ukraine used to be a state of the Soviet Union, then they broke off and gained independence on August 24th, 1991, which for the record, wouldn't have happened had the Soviet Union not collapsed.

Russia took back Crimea, now they're taking back Ukraine, you see where I'm going at here? Unprovoked wars are happening because Russia, specifically Putin, wants to reestablish the power of the Soviet Union. So to wrap it up, Russia may not be communist anymore, but it really looks like Putin wants to revive it.

Russia is not Communist. Russia is not Socialist. Russia and Ukraine have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Fucking Hell.

[Page]

The first would cause WW3. The second I think would be cool for the Scots but it would really super fuck over England, with Scotland gone, England will turn into a de facto one-party state under the Conservatives. If I were Scottish I'd want an independent Scotland but if I were English I would be hella pissed off.

[Free Algerstonia]

the island of taiwan should immediately be returned to china so that the devastating chinese civil war can finally end and the world can be one step closer to peace

[The Archregimancy]

The first would cause WW3. The second I think would be cool for the Scots but it would really super fuck over England, with Scotland gone, England will turn into a de facto one-party state under the Conservatives.

Not really. First of all, you ignore Wales; secondly, Labour have won majorities in the last 25 years - in both 1997 and 2001 - that were so large that they didn't require Labour's Scottish seats (before the rise of the SNP to its current dominance) to form a government; finally this rather glosses over the difficulty of forming a UK-wide governing coalition that includes the SNP.

It would undoubtedly become more difficult for the opposition parties in England and Wales to defeat the Conservatives and form a government should Scotland leave the UK; but it wouldn't be impossible.