UK Politics Thread X: Immigration, Housing, Strikes oh my

[Celritannia]

It is the ideal situation, but not always the case.
Again, the Civil Service, through experience, should be able to say something is unachievable.

This is where carefully worded replies come in

There's always options beyond usurping the ministers power.

To which I never mentioned. The major Civil Servants (Cabinet Secretary and the Permanent Secretaries) are still beholden to the HEad of the Civil Service (the PM) and can be replaced by them.
So it is impossible for the Civil Service to usurp the Secretaries of State.

Allowing them to point out flaws and impossible implications is not usurpation.

[Celritannia]

Genuinely though, managing upward is a vital skill for a civil servant. I do understand Celrits frustration and his perspective, but it's not really best practice in my opinion.

You should talk to GVH. He just got a job in the probation service.

A friend of mine has a job in the Justice Department, and I am looking at jobs in the Civil Service as well, currently.

[Ostroeuropa]

This is where carefully worded replies come in

There's always options beyond usurping the ministers power.

To which I never mentioned. The major Civil Servants (Cabinet Secretary and the Permanent Secretaries) are still beholden to the HEad of the Civil Service (the PM) and can be replaced by them.
So it is impossible for the Civil Service to usurp the Secretaries of State.

Allowing them to point out flaws and impossible implications is not usurpation.

I think i'm hung up on the "Impossible" here. If they tell you they want you to summon Princess Celestia to the mortal plane using the interest rate, telling them "That is impossible" or "That will not work" is a bit too much like a "No." for my tastes.

I would prefer something less committal like "I do not see how this would work, perhaps you can clarify" and "I think causing a stack overflow and this opening a portal to Equestria is untested, however, the impact of doing this would have severe implications on the housing market." so on. Which I get is extremely tedious and winds people up, but it's ultimately not telling them you refuse to even try.

By saying it's impossible there's an implication that you're not going to follow the order as opposed to just pestering them for constant clarification and pointing out how what they're asking is basically nonsense. It's a subtle difference but it's one I put a lot of stock in.

If you can say "That's impossible to achieve" then you're kind of stuck for justifying how you take any action at all.

[Hirota]

I ideally want a civil service filled with people who do not have their private opinions influence their ability to do their work and may lead them to obstruct the policies of the democratically elected government on the basis of their personal morality - hence the "nonpartisan."

Right now, as demonstrated by the examples I cited regarding Benn and Corbyn, and experienced with this proposed strike action, we have an aggregate of civil servants sitting somewhere around the center who can sometimes curb the policies of the elected government (for good or ill) through action or inaction. I personally find that less desirable, but it's the reality of the situation at the moment, and they are not picked by the government - hence the "independent"

I personally don't want selected civil servants.

I can't make it much clearer than that. If you think any of that equates to "extreme centrism" that's your opinion, not mine.

You're asking for half a million people who want to work in the government to have no strong political opinions.

Never going to happen.

What I'm hoping will happen is you will read what I said.

"people who do not have their private opinions influence their ability to do their work"

That isn't the same as the absence of an opinion, as you've misread it.

Mildly disagree Celrit. The job of the civil servant is to inform the government what you expect the proposed action will cause based on your experience. If they disagree with you, then you say "We'll see" and then enact it anyway. Only the most obstinate idiots will continually ignore that advise after that happens a few times, at which point they start dragging their feet a little (Which I disapprove of).

You've made me remember a sketch.

[The Blaatschapen]

I disagree with "independent" and suggest "nonpartisan" instead.

But I'd much rather they were independent than selected.

You would want a Civil Service filled with extreme centrists?

Oh no, the civil service will be full of Lib Dems

[The Archregimancy]

You would want a Civil Service filled with extreme centrists?

Oh no, the civil service will be full of Lib Dems

Our evil orange masterplan for global domination will soon come to fruition...

BWA-HA-HA-HA.

[Point Blob]

Oh no, the civil service will be full of Lib Dems

Our evil orange masterplan for global domination will soon come to fruition...

BWA-HA-HA-HA.

I dread to imagine what sort of horror the Lib Dems would inflict on everyone.
I mean the Tories won't stop until everyone else is below the poverty line and Labour won't stop until everyone is jailed for thought-crime... so... what flavour of insanity would the LDs inflict, I wonder?

[The Archregimancy]

Our evil orange masterplan for global domination will soon come to fruition...

BWA-HA-HA-HA.

I dread to imagine what sort of horror the Lib Dems would inflict on everyone.
I mean the Tories won't stop until everyone else is below the poverty line and Labour won't stop until everyone is jailed for thought-crime... so... what flavour of insanity would the LDs inflict, I wonder?

We'll force you to knit your own muesli.

[Celritannia]

I dread to imagine what sort of horror the Lib Dems would inflict on everyone.
I mean the Tories won't stop until everyone else is below the poverty line and Labour won't stop until everyone is jailed for thought-crime... so... what flavour of insanity would the LDs inflict, I wonder?

We'll force you to knit your own muesli.

What a truly horrid and dystopian future the Lib Dems propose.

[Hirota]

Oh no, the civil service will be full of Lib Dems

Our evil orange masterplan for global domination will soon come to fruition...

BWA-HA-HA-HA.

You've done enough damage with Agent Truss already damnit. Go back to running councils in the countryside.

[Ostroeuropa]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruite ... s-12893684

That will never happen
That didn't happen, they're making it up
There’s no source
You can’t trust [news source]
Maybe it did happen, maybe it didn't, we can't know for sure
It happened but it’s a good thing and not racist
Okay, yes it did happen and the RAF had to pay out for discrimination… but it’s just an isolated incident. <- we are here.
Okay yes, discrimination against white males has been proven under law in basically every UK institution, but that doesn't prove systemic anti-white male discrimination based on progressive ideology. <-We can be here if you want the links.

[Fartsniffage]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruiters-were-advised-against-selecting-useless-white-male-pilots-to-hit-diversity-targets-12893684

That will never happen
That didn't happen, they're making it up
There’s no source
You can’t trust [news source]
Maybe it did happen, maybe it didn't, we can't know for sure
It happened but it’s a good thing and not racist
Okay, yes it did happen and the RAF had to pay out for discrimination… but it’s just an isolated incident. <- we are here.
Okay yes, discrimination against white males has been proven under law in basically every UK institution, but that doesn't prove systemic anti-white male discrimination based on progressive ideology. <-We can be here if you want the links.

There is a benefit to having female fighter pilots. Not sure about the racial element.

[Ostroeuropa]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruiters-were-advised-against-selecting-useless-white-male-pilots-to-hit-diversity-targets-12893684

That will never happen
That didn't happen, they're making it up
There’s no source
You can’t trust [news source]
Maybe it did happen, maybe it didn't, we can't know for sure
It happened but it’s a good thing and not racist
Okay, yes it did happen and the RAF had to pay out for discrimination… but it’s just an isolated incident. <- we are here.
Okay yes, discrimination against white males has been proven under law in basically every UK institution, but that doesn't prove systemic anti-white male discrimination based on progressive ideology. <-We can be here if you want the links.

There is a benefit to having female fighter pilots. Not sure about the racial element.

The story in question concerns how they hired every ethnic minority and female applicant who passed minimum standards from that batch of applicants and still didn't have enough to meet quotas, but didn't want to start hiring white males who passed the standards once that happened. They wanted to stall until the next batch of applicants contained more women and minorities, but they had a whistleblower call them out.

There's also not really a rational for these measures when female fighter pilots already apply. At lower numbers, but apply nonetheless.

He continued: "I noted that the boards have recently been predominantly white male heavy, if we don't have enough BAME and female to board then we need to make the decision to pause boarding and seek more BAME and female from the RF [recruitment force].

"I don't really need to see loads of useless white male pilots, lets [sic] get a [sic] focussed as possible, I am more than happy to reduce boarding if needed to have a balanced BAME/female/Male board."

Another email sent the following day by the same squadron leader to a more senior member of the recruitment team, entitled "BOARDING PROFILE UPDATE", suggested a struggle to hit diversity targets.

"You will note however that the pot for BAME and female is drained," the squadron leader wrote.

"From 336 Cs [candidates] we have c10% female, 5% BAME which we will burn through quickly using the boarding profile proposed.

"As you know we select approx. 45-50% of BAME and female that we board therefore we expect to select c15 female and 7 BAME from the current cohort.

"The demand signal needs to go back to RF [the recruitment force] to focus now on sending all the BAME and female they have.

Eventually they just started doing this shit too;

An informed source alleged that efforts were made around that time to fast-track ethnic minority and female recruits into RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire without previously passing a fitness test. Instead they could take the test on their first day.

This meant they were offered employment - a place on a course - prior to undertaking a pass or fail fitness test, the source said. By contrast, before being offered employment, white men would be required to pass the fitness test first.

At that point it's "Offer them a job even if they don't pass minimum standards. But do not offer one to white men even if they do.".

And, just so we're under no illusions about the extent of anti-white racism and anti-male sexism in the country and its institutions:

Group Captain Dole went on to be awarded an OBE in the 2022 New Years Honours List.

By contrast, his successor, Group Captain Nicholl, chose to resign rather than implement what she deemed to be an "illegal order" to discriminate against white men.

When the army obeys illegal orders they get rewarded, provided it is in service of racism and sexism against the outgroup of the state ideology. I'm sure you can guess the comparison I'm thinking of.

[Celritannia]

Escaped red panda seen 'ambling' down street

[GCMG]

Our evil orange masterplan for global domination will soon come to fruition...

BWA-HA-HA-HA.

I dread to imagine what sort of horror the Lib Dems would inflict on everyone.
I mean the Tories won't stop until everyone else is below the poverty line and Labour won't stop until everyone is jailed for thought-crime... so... what flavour of insanity would the LDs inflict, I wonder?

Orange democratic horror, you say?

Escaped red panda seen 'ambling' down street

And this is why you should live near a zoo. Get better life stories.

This was... not meant to be such a themed post.

[Tinhampton]

Opt-out organ donation is now the law everywhere in the UK after Northern Ireland's law took effect today

[The Archregimancy]

We'll force you to knit your own muesli.

What a truly horrid and dystopian future the Lib Dems propose.

You've done enough damage with Agent Truss already damnit. Go back to running councils in the countryside.

My e-mail today from LibDem headquarters: "Stop puppy smuggling now".

Truly the wickedness of our perverse vision for British society knows no end.

I urge all of you to embrace the coming revolution of the slightly disgruntled materially comfortable small-l liberal middle classes and their pro-European academic fellow travellers before it's too late.

[Democratic Poopland]

Opt-out organ donation is now the law everywhere in the UK after Northern Ireland's law took effect today

Of course. It's good for people who need it, but this doesn't seem to exactly... Well, define the line of potential and not.

Edit: Actually read it, and it does.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Stopping puppy smuggling today, Chaos with Ed Davey tomorrow!

When will it end???

[Democratic Poopland]

Boris Johnson says he has handed over COVID-19 WhatsApps - BBC News

Let me guess. They're trying to scare us into submission.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Geraint Davies: Labour MP suspended over behaviour claims

Labour MP Geraint Davies has been suspended from the party after claims of "completely unacceptable behaviour".

Labour said the allegations were "incredibly serious" and encouraged anyone with a complaint to report it to the party.

According to news website Politico, he is accused of subjecting younger colleagues to unwanted sexual attention.

The MP for Swansea West told Politico he did not recognise the allegations.

"None of them, as far as I know, has been lodged as complaints with the Labour Party or Parliament," he said.

"If I have inadvertently caused offence to anyone, then I am naturally sorry as it is important that we share an environment of mutual and equal respect for all."

The BBC has contacted Mr Davies for comment but has so far received no response.

Mr Davies has been administratively suspended from the party pending an investigation into the allegations.

This means he can not sit as a Labour MP while the investigation is ongoing, although he remains the member of Parliament for Swansea West and will sit as an independent.

Politico, which first reported the allegations, said it had spoken to more than 20 people who worked with Mr Davies in Parliament, including serving MPs and current and former Labour Party staff.

=CONTINUES=

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Opt-out organ donation is now the law everywhere in the UK after Northern Ireland's law took effect today

Already opted out of this. If my blood ain't good enough, my organs aren't either.

[Forsher]

I am of the opinion that civil servants should not be allowed to strike over policy, and if they do then they should just be fired. The alternative is allowing elected governments to appoint civil servants.

Unless they go on strike because, I dunno, Marcus Rashford scored a goal, what on earth does that leave them able to strike over?

[Forsher]

I ideally want a civil service filled with people who do not have their private opinions influence their ability to do their work and may lead them to obstruct the policies of the democratically elected government on the basis of their personal morality - hence the "nonpartisan."

Look I can get the idea that, say, I shouldn't be working in a Ministry of Transport or something but if you made me a civil servant working on something I currently have no particular interest in like, say... hmm, this is quite tricky, Canada, I would quite quickly develop an opinion about Canada, which would quite quickly result in the capacity of those opinions to influence my work.

And, on the flip side, if you keep hiring hacks who do whatever they're told to the best of their ability, you end up with hacks at best and Eichmann kill all the poor at worst. Indeed, this is one of the leading theories of why everything costs so much in the Anglosphere... because you don't have subject experts, you end up with no-one saying "that can't work, stop investigating it" and thus spend all this money hiring consultants that are subject experts who tell the PPE graduate manager "that can't work, we investigated it, here's the bill". On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that can't explain why it costs twenty million pounds to build a walking and cycling bridge over two train tracks (and their overhead wires, admittedly) and that's apparently what we'll be doing shortly. (Alas, I can't find a picture of the proposed bridges which might help explain things.)

[The Blaatschapen]

What a truly horrid and dystopian future the Lib Dems propose.

You've done enough damage with Agent Truss already damnit. Go back to running councils in the countryside.

My e-mail today from LibDem headquarters: "Stop puppy smuggling now".

Truly the wickedness of our perverse vision for British society knows no end.

I urge all of you to embrace the coming revolution of the slightly disgruntled materially comfortable small-l liberal middle classes and their pro-European academic fellow travellers before it's too late.

I am in favour of puppy smuggling.

Provided they get smuggled to me.