UK Politics Thread X: Immigration, Housing, Strikes oh my

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Met Police put under special measures for being bad plod.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61970399

[The Nihilistic view]

The answer doesn't really matter either because pro Union parties will refuse to take part in the event they try a referendum anyway. So you get nowhere.

If a referendum is held then it would still go ahead even if the unionist parties for some reason chose not to campaign.

No I don’t think you get it. Because they won't take part they will also ignore it in all other ways. Hence you don't get anywhere.

It doesn't matter if you don't have both sides taking part because the UK government isn't going to act on such a vote.

[The Nihilistic view]

The answer doesn't really matter either because pro Union parties will refuse to take part in the event they try a referendum anyway. So you get nowhere.

It'll be worth it for the tartan passports and being able to buy a joug of ale.

Nah cos they'll have to be burgundy of course.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Wales is giving people £1,600-a-month in a trial of basic income

The Welsh Government has revealed exactly how its basic income pilot will work with around 500 care leavers being the first to benefit

A scheme which will see some young people given £1,600 every month for two years will start in Wales within days. The trial scheme, known as a Basic Income pilot, is designed to help those who have been brought up in care transition to adult life.

The total cost of the scheme will be £20m and an evaluation of the three-year scheme will be carried out, with the Welsh Government saying that it will be classed as a success if there have been positive improvements in areas like mental health, wellbeing, employment or education. Those eligible can get £1,600 per calendar month (£1,280 after tax) with no restrictions on what the money can be spent on.

Up to 500 people could be eligible, but one estimate said around half of those are expected to sign up initially. The Welsh Government admit it is not clear how many people will take the offer up as some will be better off on existing benefits.

=CONTINUES=

Wales is trying out UBI with 1,600 a month payments to 500 care leavers being the first people to benefit from it.

[Uan aa Boa]

No I don’t think you get it. Because they won't take part they will also ignore it in all other ways. Hence you don't get anywhere.

It doesn't matter if you don't have both sides taking part because the UK government isn't going to act on such a vote.

As The Archregimancy says, nobody really wants the situation where we're trying to decide whether 90% support on a 40% turnout counts as a mandate. It's not a good look for the unionist side either, because if the UK government blocks a binding vote and Scottish unionists act to undermine an advisory one the question arises as to what the democratic route to independence is. If the unionist answer is that there isn't one then that's another situation that's bad for everyone.

[Ifreann]

Wales is giving people £1,600-a-month in a trial of basic income

The Welsh Government has revealed exactly how its basic income pilot will work with around 500 care leavers being the first to benefit

A scheme which will see some young people given £1,600 every month for two years will start in Wales within days. The trial scheme, known as a Basic Income pilot, is designed to help those who have been brought up in care transition to adult life.

The total cost of the scheme will be £20m and an evaluation of the three-year scheme will be carried out, with the Welsh Government saying that it will be classed as a success if there have been positive improvements in areas like mental health, wellbeing, employment or education. Those eligible can get £1,600 per calendar month (£1,280 after tax) with no restrictions on what the money can be spent on.

Up to 500 people could be eligible, but one estimate said around half of those are expected to sign up initially. The Welsh Government admit it is not clear how many people will take the offer up as some will be better off on existing benefits.

=CONTINUES=

Wales is trying out UBI with 1,600 a month payments to 500 care leavers being the first people to benefit from it.

Communism with Welsh characteristics. Cymrunism.

[West Bromwich Holme]

Met Police put under special measures for being bad plod.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61970399

So now we've got three forces under special measures - the Metropolitan Police, Cleveland Police and Greater Manchester.
Interestingly, all three have been on reality TV the past 15-20 years.

[Ifreann]

Met Police put under special measures for being bad plod.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61970399

So now we've got three forces under special measures - the Metropolitan Police, Cleveland Police and Greater Manchester.
Interestingly, all three have been on reality TV the past 15-20 years.

Let that be a lesson to us all. Never appear on reality TV.

[Heloin]

This is true up to a point, but it rather seems to ignore the fact that First Dáil's declaration was followed by a vicious civil war and partition, the impacts of which are still very much felt today. And while fully conceding the dual points that the sociopolitical circumstances in Scotland in 2022-23 are very different from those in Ireland in 1918-19, and that you'd also like to think we've learned a thing or two over how not to manage this sort of process in the intervening century, Ireland isn't really the happy precedent here that independence ultras seem to think it should be.

I don’t have a lot of faith in the British government generally but if the SNP unilaterally declare independence I doubt the British Army are going to burn down Aberdeen city centre while Westminster forcibly partitions Scotland in two.

[The Archregimancy]

This is true up to a point, but it rather seems to ignore the fact that First Dáil's declaration was followed by a vicious civil war and partition, the impacts of which are still very much felt today. And while fully conceding the dual points that the sociopolitical circumstances in Scotland in 2022-23 are very different from those in Ireland in 1918-19, and that you'd also like to think we've learned a thing or two over how not to manage this sort of process in the intervening century, Ireland isn't really the happy precedent here that independence ultras seem to think it should be.

I don’t have a lot of faith in the British government generally but if the SNP unilaterally declare independence I doubt the British Army are going to burn down Aberdeen city centre while Westminster forcibly partitions Scotland in two.

I don't remotely think that either; I had hoped that was fairly explicit in my detailed qualifiers about very different circumstances and the passage of time. At the same time, I really don't think 'let's copy the First Dáil by just unilaterally declaring independence if we win the next election on a pro-independence platform' is quite the happy precedent for achieving independence that pro-indy ultras seem to think it is. That Ms Sturgeon is even considering this route shows how much pressure she must think she's under within her own party.

[The Archregimancy]

No I don’t think you get it. Because they won't take part they will also ignore it in all other ways. Hence you don't get anywhere.

It doesn't matter if you don't have both sides taking part because the UK government isn't going to act on such a vote.

As The Archregimancy says, nobody really wants the situation where we're trying to decide whether 90% support on a 40% turnout counts as a mandate. It's not a good look for the unionist side either, because if the UK government blocks a binding vote and Scottish unionists act to undermine an advisory one the question arises as to what the democratic route to independence is. If the unionist answer is that there isn't one then that's another situation that's bad for everyone.

While perhaps inadvertent rather than deliberate, the phrasing 'what the democratic route to independence is' implicitly assumes that a majority of Scots want independence, and that independence is an inevitable outcome of this process.

That Scotland is badly split c.50/50 right down the middle on this question, and that the outcome is by no means certain, are instead two of the factors that are deeply complicating any resolution on both process and outcome.

[Nationalist Northumbria]

The Scottish government is asking the UK supreme Court to rule on whether it can hold an advisory referendum without UK government consent. Nicola Sturgeon is saying that if that decision is unfavourable the plan will be to make the next Scottish Parliament election into a de facto referendum by making independence the sole point in the SNP manifesto.

The likely tactic is to gain Supreme Court approval for an advisory referendum, on the basis that this doesn't need a Section 30 order, and then argue that since all UK referendums are by nature only advisory, then this second referendum is de facto just as legally binding as the Brexit referendum even if it lacks the same de jure status as a referendum held under a Section 30 order. Thread participants will likely remember much ultimately pointless discussion over whether the Brexit referendum was legally binding or merely advisory. De jure it was the latter; de facto it was the former.

Note that I'm not offering an opinion on the validity of the tactic, merely outlining the likely approach.

The real danger is that we end up with a repeat of the 2017 Catalonia independence referendum, where the legitimacy of the referendum process is rejected by the anti-independence forces, who refuse to participate, and the SNP-led Scottish executive then tries to claim a mandate for independence on the basis of a referendum where almost the only people who vote are pro-independence. That's not really where I think any of us would want to be.

Committing to run on a purely pro-independence platform in the next Scottish Parliament referendum is realistically the main plan since Ms Sturgeon is far too canny not to have anticipated the challenges arising from a disputed referendum. There's a growing body of pro-independence opinion in Scotland that a pro-independence majority at Holyrood should simply issue a unilateral declaration of independence on the argument that 'Ireland didn't hold a referendum to declare independence'. The First Dáil simply declared independence in January 1919 after independence was the core pledge of its 1918 election manifesto, where it went on to win 73 out of the 105 Irish seats at Westminster.

This is true up to a point, but it rather seems to ignore the fact that First Dáil's declaration was followed by a vicious civil war and partition, the impacts of which are still very much felt today. And while fully conceding the dual points that the sociopolitical circumstances in Scotland in 2022-23 are very different from those in Ireland in 1918-19, and that you'd also like to think we've learned a thing or two over how not to manage this sort of process in the intervening century, Ireland isn't really the happy precedent here that independence ultras seem to think it should be.

I support partition and the return of the disputed territories (disputed by me) to Northumbrian control.

[Shamhnan Insir]

So now we've got three forces under special measures - the Metropolitan Police, Cleveland Police and Greater Manchester.
Interestingly, all three have been on reality TV the past 15-20 years.

Let that be a lesson to us all. Never appear on reality TV.

Aye, for that way lies the dark road of depravity and worse...

[Shamhnan Insir]

This is true up to a point, but it rather seems to ignore the fact that First Dáil's declaration was followed by a vicious civil war and partition, the impacts of which are still very much felt today. And while fully conceding the dual points that the sociopolitical circumstances in Scotland in 2022-23 are very different from those in Ireland in 1918-19, and that you'd also like to think we've learned a thing or two over how not to manage this sort of process in the intervening century, Ireland isn't really the happy precedent here that independence ultras seem to think it should be.

I don’t have a lot of faith in the British government generally but if the SNP unilaterally declare independence I doubt the British Army are going to burn down Aberdeen city centre while Westminster forcibly partitions Scotland in two.

Good luck burning Aberdeen city centre. The Granite Toon will laugh at you in Igneous.

[Uan aa Boa]

While perhaps inadvertent rather than deliberate, the phrasing 'what the democratic route to independence is' implicitly assumes that a majority of Scots want independence, and that independence is an inevitable outcome of this process.

That Scotland is badly split c.50/50 right down the middle on this question, and that the outcome is by no means certain, are instead two of the factors that are deeply complicating any resolution on both process and outcome.

It is inadvertent, and I share your appreciation for the problems caused by these tight margins. I personally don't think the critical mass of support is there yet. I understand the desire to try again during Sturgeon's time in office and under an unpopular Conservative UK government. Whatever happens now demographics mean that it's only a matter of time.

My point stands, however. The reason independence doesn't happen has to be that not enough people want it, not that there is no available route.

I'd also point out that there's been a pro-independence majority in the Scottish Parliament for some time. I don't believe the plan is to unilaterally declare independence, just to make it morally harder for the UK government to say no. In contrast to some I could mention, Sturgeon is being clear on the importance of working within the law and accepting legal rulings.

[Mtwara]

The national grid is considering paying people with smart meters not to use electricity over the winter to ration electricity

It will be interesting to find the economics of that.

On another note - the above demonstrates the callowness of Scottish independence - countries can't rely on wind power alone, especially as it won't necessarily blow during peak times, and Scotland has been slowly phasing out all of its thermal power plants and banging on about building more and more wind farms for quite some time.

[Major-Tom]

Question from across the pond, why is Keir Starmer still saddled with low favorability ratings despite Labour being ahead in the polls? Are people planning on begrudgingly voting Labour/Lib Dem (for now at least) just because Johnson is doing that much of a shit job? Keir seems almost deliberately inoffensive and able to appeal to many blocs of voters, so I just don't quite get it.

[Mtwara]

? Keir seems almost deliberately inoffensive

I think you managed to answer your own question.

[Shamhnan Insir]

Question from across the pond, why is Keir Starmer still saddled with low favorability ratings despite Labour being ahead in the polls? Are people planning on begrudgingly voting Labour/Lib Dem (for now at least) just because Johnson is doing that much of a shit job? Keir seems almost deliberately inoffensive and able to appeal to many blocs of voters, so I just don't quite get it.

Honestly, to me Kier Starmer is a let down. I had hopes he could at least play a good game against, what is frankly, a shit sitting government which has given him plenty of glowing opportunities to display strength as an opposition leader but he just isn't there.
Occasional good pieces from the dispatch box are on thing but he's not coming across otherwise on big issues and appears to be perennially wet when it comes to which side of an argument he wants to place himself. That kind of thing just doesn't cut it when you have bombastic, attention grabbing, crap spewing from the usual characters on the other side. At least it makes the newspapers and creates discussion point, yet there is a yawning silence of "so what does Labour think of this issue?" and that's going to cost them if they can't change.
I would wager they could do rather well with someone in charge that takes the reins properly. North of the border they have old stomping grounds they could retake from the increasingly poisonous national party, which like all things that have been in power for too long starts to rot (and has been rotting for a while). If voters in these old industrial communities could see a much more lively Labour leader and party we would see both sitting parties of power in the UK start to really sweat, especially if the Lib Dems keep taking scalps too.

The hangover of Corbyn and the mess within the party between the student politics enthusiasts and everyone else seems to have dragged the wagon off the road. It needs picked out of the ditch and given good runners again, then we might see some change.

[Uan aa Boa]

On another note - the above demonstrates the callowness of Scottish independence - countries can't rely on wind power alone, especially as it won't necessarily blow during peak times, and Scotland has been slowly phasing out all of its thermal power plants and banging on about building more and more wind farms for quite some time.

There are more than 20 independent European countries smaller by population than Scotland. Hearing over and over how we're somehow uniquely ill equipped and couldn't possibly manage because we haven't got this, that or the other gets really old.

Also, you might not have noticed but there's a climate crisis. More renewable energy is probably a good idea.

[Mtwara]

On another note - the above demonstrates the callowness of Scottish independence - countries can't rely on wind power alone, especially as it won't necessarily blow during peak times, and Scotland has been slowly phasing out all of its thermal power plants and banging on about building more and more wind farms for quite some time.

There are more than 20 independent European countries smaller by population than Scotland. Hearing over and over how we're somehow uniquely ill equipped and couldn't possibly manage because we haven't got this, that or the other gets really old.

Also, you might not have noticed but there's a climate crisis. More renewable energy is probably a good idea.

I'm not getting dragged into this argument again - but it is definitely a bad idea. England could recover from a blackout in less than a day, in Scotland you may have to wait longer than a week.

The SNP are great at topping - always just a bit better, a bit more liberal, a bit greener than England. Until you look under the surface.

[Philjia]

Telegraph rumour mill/bullshit matrix says that three Tory MPs are in discussions to defect to Labour.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... ct-labour/

[Vassenor]

So now the immigration deportations gun is being turned on people who’ve been living in the UK longer than I have been alive.

Sounds like the government is desperate to look like they’re doing something about immigration now.

[The Nihilistic view]

On another note - the above demonstrates the callowness of Scottish independence - countries can't rely on wind power alone, especially as it won't necessarily blow during peak times, and Scotland has been slowly phasing out all of its thermal power plants and banging on about building more and more wind farms for quite some time.

There are more than 20 independent European countries smaller by population than Scotland. Hearing over and over how we're somehow uniquely ill equipped and couldn't possibly manage because we haven't got this, that or the other gets really old.

Also, you might not have noticed but there's a climate crisis. More renewable energy is probably a good idea.

Well you couldn't colonise Panama so.......

[Old Tyrannia]

On another note - the above demonstrates the callowness of Scottish independence - countries can't rely on wind power alone, especially as it won't necessarily blow during peak times, and Scotland has been slowly phasing out all of its thermal power plants and banging on about building more and more wind farms for quite some time.

There are more than 20 independent European countries smaller by population than Scotland. Hearing over and over how we're somehow uniquely ill equipped and couldn't possibly manage because we haven't got this, that or the other gets really old.

Also, you might not have noticed but there's a climate crisis. More renewable energy is probably a good idea.

Scotland is of course entirely capable of existing as an independent sovereign state; I don't think anyone really doubts that, at least anyone whose opinion is worth giving consideration to. The question of whether Scotland is well-prepared at the present time to function as a sovereign state, or whether it would benefit from becoming such, is another matter altogether. Certainly I think Scotland would struggle as a separate state to provide its citizens with the services and benefits it currently provides them with.