American Politics XII: We Can Do Bad All By Ourselves

[Uiiop]

I'm basically quoting from Benito Mussolini's (ghost written by Giovanni Gentile) "Doctrine of Fascism" there. Well, except for "that's all the small minded can envision it to be used for" part, that's all me.

"The Fascist conception of the State is all embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism, is totalitarian, and the Fascist State – a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values – interprets, develops, and potentates the whole life of a people" ~ The Doctrine of Facism

Yes, I figured you were quoting a Fascist intellectual. That's why I said it was horseshit.

Fascists are very good at applying a veneer of civility to their ideology but in practice the Fascist modus operandi is quite flexible and subject to change. The Fascists quickly back-tracked on various issues to conform with Conservative stances in order to gain support from Conservatives, for example. They didn't drop those stances even after purging Conservatives from their governments, either. Fascism is by design an ideology of opportunists. Anything and everything for the sake of power and control.

You understand that this sentiment is itself fascistic?

Literally how.

I think Nar so outright try to prove the one weird trick to make fascism manageable rather than attack you on this.

Even if the treatment of fascism is excessive that does not by itself imply overtly harsh on other ideologies or people. So i would also ask for the implicit accusation of friendly fire.

Everyone here has been round this block at least a couple times. Spare the moral indignation and give it to us your ethical problem with our hate.

[Uiiop]

Yes, I figured you were quoting a Fascist intellectual. That's why I said it was horseshit.

Fascists are very good at applying a veneer of civility to their ideology but in practice the Fascist modus operandi is quite flexible and subject to change. The Fascists quickly back-tracked on various issues to conform with Conservative stances in order to gain support from Conservatives, for example. They didn't drop those stances even after purging Conservatives from their governments, either. Fascism is by design an ideology of opportunists. Anything and everything for the sake of power and control.



Literally how.

Well you know, what you're saying basically boils down to "The people that believe/think-of the ideology aren't allowed to define it" which allows for some pretty crazy claims. For instance, I could use that logic to say that it doesn't matter what Karl Marx wrote because Stalin did bad things, so it's exclusively an ideology of those bad things.

You're the one who directly cited Stalin as the founder of marxism in this analogy so you need to backtrack your own claim to not implicitly concede here.

[Washington Resistance Army]

There is nothing to be gained from the ramblings of hatemongers who call for society to revolve around war and oppression. The Fascist ideology is one innately bound in wars of conquest, the vain pursuit of glory, the obliteration of all things foreign, the enslavement of all people to a character archetype that they must exemplify to the letter, and the consolidation of all power within the hands of a privileged few. Genocide, imperialism, and exploitation are all Fascists have to offer in any form of discourse. The intellectual value intrinsic in such an ideology is entirely fictional and not worth entertaining.

All this to say that Fascism should not be debated, but destroyed.

Fascism as a concept is that the state should encompass all facets of life and supercede any other commitments. It is a fundamental rethinking of the self and the world as 'the State' and 'other'. It only revolves around war and oppression because that is all that the small minded can envision it to be used for, not because they are inherent to the concept. Ethnocentrism and violence were added later, by the anti-intellectuals that saw Fascism as a means to an end, instead of an end as of itself.

Mussolini was speaking of the importance of defending the Aryan race and the inferiority of South Slavs before the March on Rome even happened. While it never achieved quite as central a position as it did in the NSDAP racialism was absolutely an important pillar in the PNF from its earliest days.

[Narland]

Yes, I figured you were quoting a Fascist intellectual. That's why I said it was horseshit.

Fascists are very good at applying a veneer of civility to their ideology but in practice the Fascist modus operandi is quite flexible and subject to change. The Fascists quickly back-tracked on various issues to conform with Conservative stances in order to gain support from Conservatives, for example. They didn't drop those stances even after purging Conservatives from their governments, either. Fascism is by design an ideology of opportunists. Anything and everything for the sake of power and control.



Literally how.

Well you know, what you're saying basically boils down to "The people that believe/think-of the ideology aren't allowed to define it" which allows for some pretty crazy claims. For instance, I could use that logic to say that it doesn't matter what Karl Marx wrote because Stalin did bad things, so it's exclusively an ideology of those bad things.

It is important to discuss the ramification of ideology, because it can be shown that humanity flourishes under freedom, equality, and limited government, and all other ideologies whether authoritarian or totalitarian (vague and arbitrary power to whatever extent) destroys humanity to the extent that it exercises that vague and arbitrary power over the individuals to live their lives in peace.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

https://news.yahoo.com/hed-poll-61-of-trump-voters-agree-with-idea-behind-great-replacement-conspiracy-theory-090004062.html

The Great Replacement Theory is more mainstream than most people have recognized. This is a good development in my view, it means more people are waking up to the reality that is going on out there.

The “reality” of what, exactly? People are moving to the US and are having children? Who cares?

[Sordhau]

Wrong again. It's not a statement about intellectual freedom. It's a statement about how we respond to a proven hostile ideology.

You respond like a mature and productive person in a free and open society by confronting the person with rational dialog in a free and open exchange of ideas

--unless one is a totalitarian (Communist, Fascist, Nazi, etc) oneself then it doesn't matter -- you repress the offending ideology with as much force as it takes to assuage one's mind that theirs is the offensive ideology not yours.

I have no desire to engage in rational dialog with people who want to put me in a death camp because according to their ideology I'm a degenerate who doesn't deserve to live.

Fascism is by design an ideology of opportunists. Anything and everything for the sake of power and control.

I don't have any objections to the eternal pursuit of ever greater heights of glory, power, and riches. If Fascism is the closest thing in politics we have to the Sith, it is virtuous in my mind. I'm fundamentally sympathetic to their worldview and code. Everything being made into a competition where betrayals and scheming is rewarded if you win out- is thrilling to me.

Exhibit A

[Sordhau]

Well you know, what you're saying basically boils down to "The people that believe/think-of the ideology aren't allowed to define it" which allows for some pretty crazy claims. For instance, I could use that logic to say that it doesn't matter what Karl Marx wrote because Stalin did bad things, so it's exclusively an ideology of those bad things.

It is important to discuss the ramification of ideology, because it can be shown that humanity flourishes under freedom, equality, and limited government, and all other ideologies whether authoritarian or totalitarian (vague and arbitrary power to whatever extent) destroys humanity to the extent that it exercises that vague and arbitrary power over the individuals to live their lives in peace.

This is pure propaganda lmfao.

[Uiiop]

Wrong again. It's not a statement about intellectual freedom. It's a statement about how we respond to a proven hostile ideology.

You respond like a mature and productive person in a free and open society by confronting the person with rational dialog in a free and open exchange of ideas

--unless one is a totalitarian (Communist, Fascist, Nazi, etc) oneself then it doesn't matter -- you repress the offending ideology with as much force as it takes to assuage one's mind that theirs is the offensive ideology not yours.

And where has this open exchange of ideas ever existed?
People are being fired over being doxxed in support of gay rights and those responsible are being martyred on the most watched news program.

This society of yours sounds nice but is not where we live right now.

[Aamayska]

Well you know, what you're saying basically boils down to "The people that believe/think-of the ideology aren't allowed to define it" which allows for some pretty crazy claims. For instance, I could use that logic to say that it doesn't matter what Karl Marx wrote because Stalin did bad things, so it's exclusively an ideology of those bad things.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Fascism is a naturally dishonest ideology and that this is by design.

Okay, but what evidence do you have for this other than what Hitler, Mussolini, and their party members did? I'm legitimately curious as to how you could reach this conclusion without using the logic I described.

[Sordhau]

You respond like a mature and productive person in a free and open society by confronting the person with rational dialog in a free and open exchange of ideas

--unless one is a totalitarian (Communist, Fascist, Nazi, etc) oneself then it doesn't matter -- you repress the offending ideology with as much force as it takes to assuage one's mind that theirs is the offensive ideology not yours.

And where has this open exchange of ideas ever existed?
People are being fired over being doxxed in support of gay rights and those responsible are being martyred on the most watched news program.

This society of yours sounds nice but is not where we live right now.

It sounds nice because it's imaginary. Never in human history has such a society existed, nor will it ever exist, because it is founded entirely on naive idealism and Whig history.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Maybe not eco-fascists, but I will exclude white supremacists(or indeed those of any race), of which he is one.

If you were born into a specific group of people or have characteristics common to them, that is your tribe/your destiny. It's nothing more than backing my own self interests. Its not hating the other races merely for existing (although I'll admit, some people do, but why should that matter?). I'm White, so of course I'm going to embrace the White world or follow that closer than what doesn't pertain to me.

this is the most confusing and nonsensical take yet.

what about having white skin makes you somehow connected to other people with that characteristic? I hate to break it to you, but the values of other “white” people don’t align with yours. for one, “white” isn’t a culture. it’s a name for a specific group of people who lack melanin. there are dozens of cultures in Europe alone. even if white people were a single culture, that doesn’t mean their ideas align. not every frenchman agrees with the current government and it’s values.

races do not exist. I’d actually go one step further: cultures do not exist. there is usually no exact point where one culture ends and another begins. everything is a spectrum. your definition of “Irish” is different than another’s definition of “Irish”.

it’s a messy world out there, and humans draw lines to make it seem neat. this works well. the problem is that people become too attached to these lines. they base their worldview on imaginary categories. and then people like you use these categories to justify ignoring the difficulties of their fellow humans.

thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Fascism is by design an ideology of opportunists. Anything and everything for the sake of power and control.

I don't have any objections to the eternal pursuit of ever greater heights of glory, power, and riches. If Fascism is the closest thing in politics we have to the Sith, it is virtuous in my mind. I'm fundamentally sympathetic to their worldview and code. Everything being made into a competition where betrayals and scheming is rewarded if you win out- is thrilling to me.

you- I- the- what the heck??

did you just say you sympathize with the Sith? because you find betrayal and scheming to be “thrilling”? the world is not a novel for you to enjoy. it’s a real place filled with real people, who do not exist for your entertainment. I’m certain that if you were in danger from such a corrupt and amoral political system, you would think otherwise.

[Saiwania]

I know that none of the racial groups are monolithically unified in ideology/thought, but for my purposes- I largely am going to ignore the Whites who don't have any problems with the state of the world or the status quo, and instead focus on the ones who're at minimum, more in agreement with Stormfront or how I'd view the world, which is that most majority White countries are becoming more diverse racially, and that this is unacceptable. I have a problem with it, and they have a problem with it. That is enough in common to be apart of a movement or ideology.

[Aamayska]

I don't have any objections to the eternal pursuit of ever greater heights of glory, power, and riches. If Fascism is the closest thing in politics we have to the Sith, it is virtuous in my mind. I'm fundamentally sympathetic to their worldview and code. Everything being made into a competition where betrayals and scheming is rewarded if you win out- is thrilling to me.

you- I- the- what the heck??

did you just say you sympathize with the Sith? because you find betrayal and scheming to be “thrilling”? the world is not a novel for you to enjoy. it’s a real place filled with real people, who do not exist for your entertainment. I’m certain that if you were in danger from such a corrupt and amoral political system, you would think otherwise.

I'm pretty sure Sai is appealing to social darwinism, which is, I hate to break it to you Sai, pseudoscience. By the way, the ideology you are looking for is kratocracy.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

I know that none of the racial groups are monolithically unified in ideology/thought, but for my purposes- I largely am going to ignore the Whites who don't have any problems with the state of the world or the status quo, and instead focus on the ones who're at minimum, more in agreement with Stormfront or how I'd view the world, which is that most majority White countries are becoming more diverse racially, and that this is unacceptable. I have a problem with it, and they have a problem with it. That is enough in common to be apart of a movement or ideology.

“white people agree with me, if you ignore the white people who don’t agree with me”

also:

“I don’t hate other races for existing”
“most majority white countries are becoming more diverse racially, and […] this is unacceptable”

lol

[Sordhau]

That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Fascism is a naturally dishonest ideology and that this is by design.

Okay, but what evidence do you have for this other than what Hitler, Mussolini, and their party members did? I'm legitimately curious as to how you could reach this conclusion without using the logic I described.

Mussolini literally invented Fascism. Mussolini and Hitler were contemporaries. What they did absolutely defines what Fascism is and it's intellectually dishonest to argue otherwise.

Karl Marx died in 1883. Stalin didn't take power until 1922 - roughly 40 years later. While Stalin contributed his own ideas to Marxist thought, to equate him with Marx is--again--intellectually dishonest.

[Aamayska]

I know that none of the racial groups are monolithically unified in ideology/thought, but for my purposes- I largely am going to ignore the Whites who don't have any problems with the state of the world or the status quo, and instead focus on the ones who're at minimum, more in agreement with Stormfront or how I'd view the world, which is that most majority White countries are becoming more diverse racially, and that this is unacceptable. I have a problem with it, and they have a problem with it. That is enough in common to be apart of a movement or ideology.

Why do you believe racial diversity is a bad thing? I think it's wonderful that people are blending cultures together and creating something new.

[Port Caverton]

I know that none of the racial groups are monolithically unified in ideology/thought, but for my purposes- I largely am going to ignore the Whites who don't have any problems with the state of the world or the status quo, and instead focus on the ones who're at minimum, more in agreement with Stormfront or how I'd view the world, which is that most majority White countries are becoming more diverse racially, and that this is unacceptable. I have a problem with it, and they have a problem with it. That is enough in common to be apart of a movement or ideology.

We should give your house to immgrants and deport you to Nunavut

[The Reformed American Republic]

you- I- the- what the heck??

did you just say you sympathize with the Sith? because you find betrayal and scheming to be “thrilling”? the world is not a novel for you to enjoy. it’s a real place filled with real people, who do not exist for your entertainment. I’m certain that if you were in danger from such a corrupt and amoral political system, you would think otherwise.

I'm pretty sure Sai is appealing to social darwinism, which is, I hate to break it to you Sai, pseudoscience. By the way, the ideology you are looking for is kratocracy.

Sai will more likely end up in a death camp or dead than be at the top, if his ideal government came to power. He acts like he will be one of the elites when he probably won't.

[Aamayska]

Okay, but what evidence do you have for this other than what Hitler, Mussolini, and their party members did? I'm legitimately curious as to how you could reach this conclusion without using the logic I described.

Mussolini literally invented Fascism. Mussolini and Hitler were contemporaries. What they did absolutely defines what Fascism is and it's intellectually dishonest to argue otherwise.

Karl Marx died in 1883. Stalin didn't take power until 1922 - roughly 40 years later. While Stalin contributed his own ideas to Marxist thought, to equate him with Marx is--again--intellectually dishonest.

I would disagree but I see your point. I would argue Hitler and Mussolini, while contemporaries of the original Fascist intellectuals, like Giovanni Gentile, did the same as Stalin, adding their own ideas and ultimately creating their own, distinct versions of the ideology.

That being said, I'd like to point out I wasn't equating Stalin with Marx but rather trying to compare the equating of Hitler and Mussolini with Fascism as similar to equating Stalin and Marx. I believe both to be incorrect.

[Saiwania]

Why do you believe racial diversity is a bad thing? I think it's wonderful that people are blending cultures together and creating something new.

Because the nature of all reality is essentially zero sum. One gain is inherently another's loss and vice versa. What is happening is ensuring that what I most cherish is in decline or fading out of existence over time. What I see as self preservation, others can never understand or just gaslight with (what I see as nonsense), complaints about bigotry or hatred as if thats the most important thing.

[Port Caverton]

I'm pretty sure Sai is appealing to social darwinism, which is, I hate to break it to you Sai, pseudoscience. By the way, the ideology you are looking for is kratocracy.

Sai will more likely end up in a death camp or dead than be at the top, if his ideal government came to power. He acts like he will be one of the elites when he probably won't.

I mean he can't serve in the army due to awful vision in one eye and has not had a job for a while, so I'm guessing he will be gassed within the first 12 hours

[Necroghastia]

Why do you believe racial diversity is a bad thing? I think it's wonderful that people are blending cultures together and creating something new.

Because the nature of all reality is essentially zero sum. One gain is inherently another's loss and vice versa.

lol no it isn't

What is happening is ensuring that what I most cherish is in decline or fading out of existence over time. What I see as self preservation, others can never understand or just gaslight with (what I see as nonsense), complaints about bigotry or hatred as if thats the most important thing.

yes, you're one of those people like antivaxxers and flatearthers that reject reality in favor of screwball, baseless conspiracy theories that require everyone that you don't like to be simultaneously omnipotent and dumb as a pile of bricks, we fucking get it already.

[Umeria]

Why do you believe racial diversity is a bad thing? I think it's wonderful that people are blending cultures together and creating something new.

Because the nature of all reality is essentially zero sum. One gain is inherently another's loss and vice versa. What is happening is ensuring that what I most cherish is in decline or fading out of existence over time. What I see as self preservation, others can never understand or just gaslight with (what I see as nonsense), complaints about bigotry or hatred as if thats the most important thing.

Circular argument. Racial diversity is bad because it's the opposite of something you consider good, well why is it good?

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Why do you believe racial diversity is a bad thing? I think it's wonderful that people are blending cultures together and creating something new.

Because the nature of all reality is essentially zero sum. One gain is inherently another's loss and vice versa. What is happening is ensuring that what I most cherish is in decline or fading out of existence over time. What I see as self preservation, others can never understand or just gaslight with (what I see as nonsense), complaints about bigotry or hatred as if thats the most important thing.

reality is not zero sum. while technically if one person has a job, another doesn’t have that job, that job generates much benefit for others. and this happens when white people have children, too. a white person can stop another white person from having a job. their race has nothing to do with it at all.