American Politics XII: We Can Do Bad All By Ourselves

[Ethel mermania]

https://thehill.com/news/3486140-delaware-ag-calls-for-federal-probe-of-alleged-racial-profiling-in-search-of-lacrosse-teams-bus/

Delaware AG calls for federal probe of alleged racial profiling in search of lacrosse team’s bus

I'm not surprised that profiling may have played a factor. No disrespect for the Ball Play, as our ancestors called it, but Lacrosse players don't exactly seem like the partying type.

Having dated a female lacrosse player who's team mates routinely drank me under the table, I disagree with your assertion.

That said, everything i have read does not show reasonable suspicion to conduct the search. " a lot of buses carrying drugs" ain't it.

[American Legionaries]

Moderates are definitely famous for creating secret police forces to imprison or kill people who have anti-moderation beliefs.

Okay I agree that dictators are bad. But this is the American politics thread and the closest thing this country has to a secret police are the CIA and FBI, are those run by leftists?

Prim said leftists, not the government.

[Kannap]

Ah, new thread smell *deep sniff* mmmmm smells just like the landfill full of shit that is America.

This doesn't even make sense, can't I show the stupid pieces of metal to children?

Do you enjoy dodging with stupid nonsense as opposed to directly answering a question?

Obligatory "ironic"

[American Legionaries]

A lot of them seem to be cultural hegemonists.

well that knife cuts both ways

You're not wrong, but the American right at least has the self awareness to not shout from the rooftops about their self declared tolerance.

[Forsher]

Sure, but my overall point was that Lumen only periodically addresses the substance of points actually made; generally he prefers to go to a stretched "if I take your stated premise to an extreme, isn't it then terrible?"

The problem with the slippery slope argument is when someone's actually walled off the descent down the slippery slope. The problem isn't that "if x, then x+1" is an inherently bad point. Reducing things to absurdities is similar. It can very much be that the critic is correct... given the premises and/or values revealed in the thread, the argument does resolve to a position the proposer finds absurd or abhorrent.

Let's consider, for example, someone suggesting banging another lane on the Katy Freeway. You'd probably call suggesting, "Sure, but what if we have to add a second additional lane in two years' time?" a reduction to the absurd. After all, the person is only agreeing to add one more lane now. The issue is that if you stick one more lane on the Katy Freeway now, you'll almost certainly have to do it again in a few years. Which is why the Katy Freeway looks like this:

The reality is that I don't believe anyone is more likely than not wrong if they're suggesting someone else hasn't thought through the implications of what they're proposing. People don't like to encounter arguments which bring them out of their own headspace... that realm where everything is as they conceive it and nothing is as they don't. And the corollary of that is people have a whole bunch of qualifications in their head that become unstated premises when they actually articulate their positions.

If someone wants to complain about their argument being reduced to an absurdity, they need to make it clear that they believe it only within certain parameters. The vast majority of people do not do this. And most find posts that do seriously tl;dr or just plain tedious.

I guess what I'm saying is that an argument on NSG is the continued revelation of the true beliefs of an individual through a process of ad hoc elaborations. And who are we to stand in the way of revelations?

That's be funnier if we were talking about Prima Scriptura.

I can agree that that is not necessarily bad faith in each and every case, but Lumen also only periodically answers people's questions, and the ones he most ignores are ones that purport to to expose a contradiction in his stated premises, it's not precisely the most rewarding, or enlightening, type of exchange.

I don't pay close enough attention to SL's posts to know if this is true. I do find he prefers to talk about what is and ignore that people are trying to have conversations about what ought to be... but he's hardly alone in confusing the two. If SL really is dodging questions himself, I understand the frustration you must be feeling.

I will further add that if you've got a particular issue with how SL communicates (rather than what SL says), the best solution for you is probably to try not to read them (eg the Foe's List). There are two posters I do that with and a third I would but they're a mod, so I can't.

[Senkaku]

well that knife cuts both ways

I could agree, but i think the modern left considers civil nationalism or “the melting pot” standard is “racist/etc.

The abstract concepts of civic nationalism and the American melting pot aren’t the issue, the issue is how they’ve been wielded, both in contemporary politics and in history, by people who in fact are opposed to both. If you could take a breath in between repeating right-wing TikTok mantras and grow a historical memory, you might find that “the left” is not in fact collectively and implacably opposed to a lot of mainstream beliefs, be it about parenting or cultural diversity or anything else, but is in fact opposed to people who call upon these beliefs in their rhetoric to justify exploitation, abuse, and genocide.

[Senkaku]

well that knife cuts both ways

You're not wrong, but the American right at least has the self awareness to not shout from the rooftops about their self declared tolerance.

Instead they shout from the rooftops about their explicit cultural imperialism? This is all resting on an interpretation of vaguely liberal-left “tolerance” as inherently culturally hegemonic; if that’s the case then I have no idea why the vaguely fascist-right form of cultural hegemony would be any more self-aware or acceptable.

[Necroghastia]

well that knife cuts both ways

You're not wrong, but the American right at least has the self awareness to not shout from the rooftops about their self declared tolerance.

My big fat fucking ass they don't! They're all about "family values" and "religious freedom" in their advertisements and propaganda, and yet in reality that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Umeria]

Okay I agree that dictators are bad. But this is the American politics thread and the closest thing this country has to a secret police are the CIA and FBI, are those run by leftists?

Prim said leftists, not the government.

And I assumed he was talking about American leftists, my bad I guess

[Adamede]

well that knife cuts both ways

You're not wrong, but the American right at least has the self awareness to not shout from the rooftops about their self declared tolerance.

No they just shout out their self perceived superiority.

[Senkaku]

You're not wrong, but the American right at least has the self awareness to not shout from the rooftops about their self declared tolerance.

My big fat fucking ass they don't! They're all about "family values" and "religious freedom" in their advertisements and propaganda, and yet in reality that couldn't be further from the truth.

I guess this is sort of the missing piece of my response— if cultural imperialism is just calling on higher principles to justify your own superiority, I don’t know why liberal-leftie types doing it implicitly with appeals to diversity is worse than fascist-rightie types doing it explicitly by asserting they are literally more morally worthy.

[Thermodolia]

The message you're pushing is that one party results in notably superior outcomes for the environment. This isn't the case.

one party pushes environmental regulations. the other pushes climate denial.

Lol. The democrats don’t give a flying fuck about the environment. Some democrats might but the party overall would much rather simp for corporations

[San Lumen]

one party pushes environmental regulations. the other pushes climate denial.

Lol. The democrats don’t give a flying fuck about the environment. Some democrats might but the party overall would much rather simp for corporations

What makes you think they don't care? Do you and others ever get tired of the same old generalizations?

[American Legionaries]

Lol. The democrats don’t give a flying fuck about the environment. Some democrats might but the party overall would much rather simp for corporations

What makes you think they don't care? Do you and others ever get tired of the same old generalizations?

Lack of evidence.

[Prima Scriptura]

Sure, but my overall point was that Lumen only periodically addresses the substance of points actually made; generally he prefers to go to a stretched "if I take your stated premise to an extreme, isn't it then terrible?"

The problem with the slippery slope argument is when someone's actually walled off the descent down the slippery slope. The problem isn't that "if x, then x+1" is an inherently bad point. Reducing things to absurdities is similar. It can very much be that the critic is correct... given the premises and/or values revealed in the thread, the argument does resolve to a position the proposer finds absurd or abhorrent.

Let's consider, for example, someone suggesting banging another lane on the Katy Freeway. You'd probably call suggesting, "Sure, but what if we have to add a second additional lane in two years' time?" a reduction to the absurd. After all, the person is only agreeing to add one more lane now. The issue is that if you stick one more lane on the Katy Freeway now, you'll almost certainly have to do it again in a few years. Which is why the Katy Freeway looks like this:

The reality is that I don't believe anyone is more likely than not wrong if they're suggesting someone else hasn't thought through the implications of what they're proposing. People don't like to encounter arguments which bring them out of their own headspace... that realm where everything is as they conceive it and nothing is as they don't. And the corollary of that is people have a whole bunch of qualifications in their head that become unstated premises when they actually articulate their positions.

If someone wants to complain about their argument being reduced to an absurdity, they need to make it clear that they believe it only within certain parameters. The vast majority of people do not do this. And most find posts that do seriously tl;dr or just plain tedious.

I guess what I'm saying is that an argument on NSG is the continued revelation of the true beliefs of an individual through a process of ad hoc elaborations. And who are we to stand in the way of revelations?

That's be funnier if we were talking about Prima Scriptura.

I can agree that that is not necessarily bad faith in each and every case, but Lumen also only periodically answers people's questions, and the ones he most ignores are ones that purport to to expose a contradiction in his stated premises, it's not precisely the most rewarding, or enlightening, type of exchange.

I don't pay close enough attention to SL's posts to know if this is true. I do find he prefers to talk about what is and ignore that people are trying to have conversations about what ought to be... but he's hardly alone in confusing the two. If SL really is dodging questions himself, I understand the frustration you must be feeling.

I will further add that if you've got a particular issue with how SL communicates (rather than what SL says), the best solution for you is probably to try not to read them (eg the Foe's List). There are two posters I do that with and a third I would but they're a mod, so I can't.

Why would it be funny if you were talking about me?

[Thermodolia]

The Far-Right Is Doxxing Judges and Calling For Their Assassinations



But remember, the real threat is the people standing outside Kav's house trying to ask nicely to get him to keep abortion legal.

I feel like hitting actual government-by-assassination territory will be my cue to actually emigrate tbh. Although tbf most of these guys are like Telconi and like posting about murdering people more than they actually want to hurt anyone, cold comfort though that may be once they finally wind some lurker up enough to kick things off.

Lol. Assassinations aren’t anything new. All that would happen is that we’d re-experience the 60s and 70s.

Besides leaving the US instead of trying and fighting for the survival of the US is the mark of a coward. If you truly believe that these people are trying to take over the US then deciding to leave when they attempt to do so let’s them win and makes you seem like someone who never cared in the first place

[Thermodolia]

Lol. The democrats don’t give a flying fuck about the environment. Some democrats might but the party overall would much rather simp for corporations

What makes you think they don't care? Do you and others ever get tired of the same old generalizations?

The fact that they have done jackshit in the past two years.

And don’t tell me it’s because of Manchinama, the democrats don’t care. If they did they would have used the tactics they used during the 60s to pass shit. They wouldn’t have watered down a bill again and again and again.

And most of all they wouldn’t have let a guy who told a bunch of rich donors that nothing will really change ever be president

[San Lumen]

What makes you think they don't care? Do you and others ever get tired of the same old generalizations?

The fact that they have done jackshit in the past two years.

And don’t tell me it’s because of Manchinama, the democrats don’t care. If they did they would have used the tactics they used during the 60s to pass shit. They wouldn’t have watered down a bill again and again and again.

And most of all they wouldn’t have let a guy who told a bunch of rich donors that nothing will really change ever be president

What tactics is that?

[Prima Scriptura]

The Far-Right Is Doxxing Judges and Calling For Their Assassinations

As peaceful protesters camp outside the homes of Supreme Court justices after the leaked draft that would overturn Roe v. Wade, far-right activists are doxxing Democratic federal judges and calling for their assassination.

The posts, which appear on a far-right Telegram channel, feature the names and addresses of federal court judges (among other public figures perceived as enemies to the far-right) alongside a bio and a slick red graphic with a Kalashnikov rifle.

The image of the channel on Telegram—the popular encrypted messaging and posting app known in the past for being a safe haven for neo-Nazi terror groups—is the profile of an unidentified militant in a balaclava pointing an assault rifle.

“Remember, change starts with you,” the channel said in its top-line, pinned post. “No one is coming to save us.”

But remember, the real threat is the people standing outside Kav's house trying to ask nicely to get him to keep abortion legal.

What they don’t know is that telegram channels are de facto honeypots. The feds know who they are

[Ngelmish]

What makes you think they don't care? Do you and others ever get tired of the same old generalizations?

The fact that they have done jackshit in the past two years.

And don’t tell me it’s because of Manchinama, the democrats don’t care. If they did they would have used the tactics they used during the 60s to pass shit. They wouldn’t have watered down a bill again and again and again.

And most of all they wouldn’t have let a guy who told a bunch of rich donors that nothing will really change ever be president

Not a realistic understanding of either what was accomplished in the 60s or how. Particularly given that party leaders were still chosen pretty much exclusively behind closed doors talking to rich donors/party leaders.

[Forsher]

And who are we to stand in the way of revelations?

That's be funnier if we were talking about Prima Scriptura.

Why would it be funny if you were talking about me?

Revelations. As in Book of Revelation. As in Scripture. As in your username.

It falls apart a little because Revelations as in Book of Revelation is, it seems, an error. But I didn't know that then.

[The Jamesian Republic]

The fact that they have done jackshit in the past two years.

And don’t tell me it’s because of Manchinama, the democrats don’t care. If they did they would have used the tactics they used during the 60s to pass shit. They wouldn’t have watered down a bill again and again and again.

And most of all they wouldn’t have let a guy who told a bunch of rich donors that nothing will really change ever be president

What tactics is that?

Remember the LBJ discussions…

[Senkaku]

I feel like hitting actual government-by-assassination territory will be my cue to actually emigrate tbh. Although tbf most of these guys are like Telconi and like posting about murdering people more than they actually want to hurt anyone, cold comfort though that may be once they finally wind some lurker up enough to kick things off.

Lol. Assassinations aren’t anything new. All that would happen is that we’d re-experience the 60s and 70s.

Assassinations aren't new, but targeted mass assassination of local officials of the kind I'm talking about (government by assassination) hasn't been seen since like, Reconstruction, or maybe the heyday of the Chicago Outfit, and I expect it would be accompanied by a very 60s/70s US/20s/30s Japan targeting of higher officials as well. This would be a nationwide phenomenon, too; with modern communication and nationalized politics it wouldn't be constrained to one region. Obviously I'm not going to panic just because one or two Kennedys gets whacked, but I'm talking about the potential here for something much more menacingly Colombianized.

Besides leaving the US instead of trying and fighting for the survival of the US is the mark of a coward. If you truly believe that these people are trying to take over the US then deciding to leave when they attempt to do so let’s them win and makes you seem like someone who never cared in the first place

Ok, so I'm a coward then. If you can't see that they've already won, I don't really know what to tell you-- if immortal Thetis offered me a long and peaceful life of obscurity or a glorious death, I'd pick the former without hesitation, and it's not like I'm getting offers for the second thing anyways. I'm not history's main character, there's no obligation for me to try and go on some quixotic hero's journey that ruins my life and eventually gets me killed when I could be having a relatively much more pleasant and peaceful life somewhere overseas.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

the state of the Earth is everyone’s concern, at least those who will still be living on it.

that is your opinion, and regardless it wasn't the point. If you're trying to get people to care about the things you care about, ridiculing them for the things they care about is going to have the exact opposite effect.

it’s not my opinion. if the sea level rises a meter, desertification happens all over the place, and there are massive storms all the time, we’re all screwed.

I wasn’t ridiculing anyone, I was suggesting that perhaps supporting a literal dictatorship if it means you can have guns is perhaps not a good thing.

[The Black Forrest]

So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?

To be fair, a majority of Republicans support homosexual couples being able to get a civil marriage

Meh. I wonder how many of those people support all the recent anti-lgbtq+ laws?

It’s easy to say you support something. When it comes time for it?……excuses often appear.

What's that saying about fooling people and how often you can do it? The GOP does very little for working class white people except get them frightened and angry. If the Democrats were better at messaging, Republicans would be an endangered species.

And Democrats are not doing themselves any favors by calling working class white voters “racist” and “homo/transphobic” either.

*shrugs*

If the label fits…..