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American Politics XII: We Can Do Bad All By Ourselves

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What Issues Are Most Important To You This Cycle?

The Economy(Non-Inflation Issues)
67
12%
Defence
34
6%
Civil/Human Rights
92
17%
Court Reform
33
6%
Healthcare
61
11%
Inflation
73
13%
Education
38
7%
The Environment
86
16%
Infrastructure
46
8%
Other(Let us Know!)
19
3%
 
Total votes : 549

User avatar
American Legionaries
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6034
Founded: Nov 03, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Thu May 12, 2022 12:59 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
A lot of working class white people seem to believe so.


They've been taking in by the Republicans lies and Democrats have not made a concerted effort to bring them back into the fold.


Lmao, 'Republican lies'...

You really can't fathom the idea that people actually disagree with you, can you?

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:00 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
They've been taking in by the Republicans lies and Democrats have not made a concerted effort to bring them back into the fold.


Lmao, 'Republican lies'...

You really can't fathom the idea that people actually disagree with you, can you?


I never said that.

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Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 110698
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Thu May 12, 2022 1:00 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:And the Republicans are certainly all about helping the working class, uh huh.


A lot of working class white people seem to believe so.

What's that saying about fooling people and how often you can do it? The GOP does very little for working class white people except get them frightened and angry. If the Democrats were better at messaging, Republicans would be an endangered species.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
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User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:00 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
A lot of working class white people seem to believe so.

What's that saying about fooling people and how often you can do it? The GOP does very little for working class white people except get them frightened and angry. If the Democrats were better at messaging, Republicans would be an endangered species.


It will take years to undo the damage and rebuild the party in rural areas.

User avatar
American Legionaries
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6034
Founded: Nov 03, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Thu May 12, 2022 1:05 pm

San Lumen wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
Lmao, 'Republican lies'...

You really can't fathom the idea that people actually disagree with you, can you?


I never said that.


So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?

User avatar
Port Caverton
Minister
 
Posts: 2515
Founded: Oct 01, 2021
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Port Caverton » Thu May 12, 2022 1:05 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
A lot of working class white people seem to believe so.


They've been taking in by the Republicans lies and Democrats have not made a concerted effort to bring them back into the fold.

Dems are only going to get those white voters back if they become more moderate on social issues at the expense of minorities
"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."

User avatar
Prima Scriptura
Senator
 
Posts: 3898
Founded: Nov 23, 2021
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Prima Scriptura » Thu May 12, 2022 1:08 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
I never said that.


So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?



To be fair, a majority of Republicans support homosexual couples being able to get a civil marriage
I’m a Protestant Christian and American Patriot. 30 year-old male from MPLS, MN. Volcel with SSA.
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
Sola gratia. Sola fide. Soli Deo gloria. Solus Christus
1 Chronicles 16:34
Psalms 147:3
Isaiah 53:5
Luke 9:23
Romans 3:22-24
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User avatar
Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 110698
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Thu May 12, 2022 1:09 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
I never said that.


So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?

The lie is in saying that those are bad things. Your path is the path of exclusion. Eventually you'll be all alone with just echoes of your own voice. Well, and maybe Tucker Carlson's voice.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:10 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?

The lie is in saying that those are bad things. Your path is the path of exclusion. Eventually you'll be all alone with just echoes of your own voice. Well, and maybe Tucker Carlson's voice.

Thats if Republicans haven't made it so its impossible for them to lose and elections are just for show.

User avatar
American Legionaries
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6034
Founded: Nov 03, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Thu May 12, 2022 1:10 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?

The lie is in saying that those are bad things. Your path is the path of exclusion. Eventually you'll be all alone with just echoes of your own voice. Well, and maybe Tucker Carlson's voice.


Contrary opinions aren't lies, Farn. That's not how that works.

User avatar
Prima Scriptura
Senator
 
Posts: 3898
Founded: Nov 23, 2021
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Prima Scriptura » Thu May 12, 2022 1:11 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
A lot of working class white people seem to believe so.

What's that saying about fooling people and how often you can do it? The GOP does very little for working class white people except get them frightened and angry. If the Democrats were better at messaging, Republicans would be an endangered species.


And Democrats are not doing themselves any favors by calling working class white voters “racist” and “homo/transphobic” either.
I’m a Protestant Christian and American Patriot. 30 year-old male from MPLS, MN. Volcel with SSA.
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
Sola gratia. Sola fide. Soli Deo gloria. Solus Christus
1 Chronicles 16:34
Psalms 147:3
Isaiah 53:5
Luke 9:23
Romans 3:22-24
2 Corinthians 5:17

User avatar
Free Algerstonia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1268
Founded: Jan 16, 2022
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Free Algerstonia » Thu May 12, 2022 1:12 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Free Algerstonia wrote:mccarthy? interesting.


Do we call it the McCarthy hearings?

someone will have to bait our dear minority leader into condemning the communist influences in our armed forces!
ron desantis 2024 (trump will already have served 2 presidential terms by 2024)

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:12 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:What's that saying about fooling people and how often you can do it? The GOP does very little for working class white people except get them frightened and angry. If the Democrats were better at messaging, Republicans would be an endangered species.


And Democrats are not doing themselves any favors by calling working class white voters “racist” and “homo/transphobic” either.


No one has called them all racist or homo/transphobic.

User avatar
American Legionaries
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6034
Founded: Nov 03, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Thu May 12, 2022 1:13 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?



To be fair, a majority of Republicans support homosexual couples being able to get a civil marriage


The party's hardly a hive mind, and certain people are driven by various issues. Probably half the positions on that list I support, but party dynamics have resulted in my in the party which opposes them.

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:14 pm

American Legionaries wrote:


The party's hardly a hive mind, and certain people are driven by various issues. Probably half the positions on that list I support, but party dynamics have resulted in my in the party which opposes them.


You care about one thing and one thing alone.

User avatar
Shrillland
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19647
Founded: Apr 12, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Shrillland » Thu May 12, 2022 1:14 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:What's that saying about fooling people and how often you can do it? The GOP does very little for working class white people except get them frightened and angry. If the Democrats were better at messaging, Republicans would be an endangered species.


It will take years to undo the damage and rebuild the party in rural areas.


I'm not sure that it can be done given how the Dems are actually opposed to a lot of farmers on more things than just social issues. A lot of Dems want to see farm subsidies and ethanol subsidies gutted to try to alleviate world poverty, never mind the horrific consequences such measures would have here with the effective price controls such subsidies bring turned off, or the fact that it would make the agribusiness conglomerates ever more powerful as small farmers could no longer hope to make money against foreign imports or big business. Out west, the Dems side against farmers and ranchers on things like water rights and land use rights, something that we who live east of the Mississippi have never had to contemplate because the BLM barely owns land here. On top of all this, the increasingly Democratic mantra of the city as the crowning achievement of civilisation draws a lot of resentment as us rural folks face ever-worsening poverty, drug use, and suicide rates from lack of economic opportunity.
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User avatar
Czardas
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6892
Founded: Feb 25, 2005
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Czardas » Thu May 12, 2022 1:14 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
So which of these things is a "Republican Lie"

Democrats support abortion access
Democrats support marriage between people of the same sex
Democrats support looser immigration policies and oppose the arrest and deportation of people without valid resident visas.
Democrats support stricter regulations on firearm possession and acquisition
Democrats support people being treated as the gender of their choosing, rather than my the gender implied by their birth sex
Democrats support teaching children about long sta ding systemic racism in the United States
Democrats support increasing taxes, specifically punitive consumption taxes

Because as far as I can tell, I've named every single thing I've ever heard someone cite as why they dislike your party, now where's the lie?

The lie is in saying that those are bad things. Your path is the path of exclusion. Eventually you'll be all alone with just echoes of your own voice. Well, and maybe Tucker Carlson's voice.

Honestly, I think the number of people who believe all those things are inherently bad is on the increase in the USA, and will continue to increase for at least another decade or so. Admittedly, my only source is anecdotal evidence, and the statistical polling data shows otherwise (although skewed via inevitable bias, caused by the fact that most people who believe in outlawing abortion and homosexuality and transgenderism and nonwhite immigration, etc, also no longer trust "the media" and thus won't answer any polls unless they're conducted by a right-wing media source they do trust).

I would not say the number of people who support these positions is yet as high as it was in, say, 2004. But I suspect that, if we could somehow get completely accurate data on Americans' beliefs over the last 25 years, most of these items' Likert scale scores would exhibit moderately U-shaped curves.
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San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:16 pm

Shrillland wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
It will take years to undo the damage and rebuild the party in rural areas.


I'm not sure that it can be done given how the Dems are actually opposed to a lot of farmers on more things than just social issues. A lot of Dems want to see farm subsidies and ethanol subsidies gutted to try to alleviate world poverty, never mind the horrific consequences such measures would have here with the effective price controls such subsidies bring turned off, or the fact that it would make the agribusiness conglomerates ever more powerful as small farmers could no longer hope to make money against foreign imports or big business. Out west, the Dems side against farmers and ranchers on things like water rights and land use rights, something that we who live east of the Mississippi have never had to contemplate because the BLM barely owns land here. On top of all this, the increasingly Democratic mantra of the city as the crowning achievement of civilisation draws a lot of resentment as us rural folks face ever-worsening poverty, drug use, and suicide rates from lack of economic opportunity.


ending farm subsides is utterly moronic.

User avatar
Necroghastia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7297
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Thu May 12, 2022 1:17 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
They've been taking in by the Republicans lies and Democrats have not made a concerted effort to bring them back into the fold.


Lmao, 'Republican lies'...

You really can't fathom the idea that people actually disagree with you, can you?

Republican lies like Trump cares? Like Covid is basically the flu? Like illegal immigrants our going to steal your jobs and your women? Like fetal heartbeats matter? Like LGBT people are pedos?

Come the FUCK on Telconi.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

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User avatar
American Legionaries
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6034
Founded: Nov 03, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Thu May 12, 2022 1:18 pm

San Lumen wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
The party's hardly a hive mind, and certain people are driven by various issues. Probably half the positions on that list I support, but party dynamics have resulted in my in the party which opposes them.


You care about one thing and one thing alone.


Sure, and I'm unflinching in my willingness to put people like you through any degree of hardship necessary to get it.

User avatar
Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 110698
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Thu May 12, 2022 1:18 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The lie is in saying that those are bad things. Your path is the path of exclusion. Eventually you'll be all alone with just echoes of your own voice. Well, and maybe Tucker Carlson's voice.


Contrary opinions aren't lies, Farn. That's not how that works.

Of course it works that way. It's always worked that way. Telling people that contrary opinions are irredeemably bad is a lie. The GOP tells people that because the Democrats support those things, they are actively trying to destroy America. That's a lie and it has led to the lie that the Democratic leaders are pedophile sex-traffickers and the lie that if a Republican loses an election it is because the Democrats cheated.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

User avatar
Necroghastia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7297
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Thu May 12, 2022 1:18 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
You care about one thing and one thing alone.


Sure, and I'm unflinching in my willingness to put people like you through any degree of hardship necessary to get it.

Why? And any degree? Anything at all?
Last edited by Necroghastia on Thu May 12, 2022 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
American Legionaries
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6034
Founded: Nov 03, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Thu May 12, 2022 1:19 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
Sure, and I'm unflinching in my willingness to put people like you through any degree of hardship necessary to get it.

Why?


Because my rights are more valuable than my enemies' rights. Presuming I even agree with what they're arguing is a right.

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 74530
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:23 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Why?


Because my rights are more valuable than my enemies' rights. Presuming I even agree with what they're arguing is a right.

even if it means a ruined environment and one party dictatorship.

User avatar
Prima Scriptura
Senator
 
Posts: 3898
Founded: Nov 23, 2021
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Prima Scriptura » Thu May 12, 2022 1:23 pm

Shrillland wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
It will take years to undo the damage and rebuild the party in rural areas.


I'm not sure that it can be done given how the Dems are actually opposed to a lot of farmers on more things than just social issues. A lot of Dems want to see farm subsidies and ethanol subsidies gutted to try to alleviate world poverty, never mind the horrific consequences such measures would have here with the effective price controls such subsidies bring turned off, or the fact that it would make the agribusiness conglomerates ever more powerful as small farmers could no longer hope to make money against foreign imports or big business. Out west, the Dems side against farmers and ranchers on things like water rights and land use rights, something that we who live east of the Mississippi have never had to contemplate because the BLM barely owns land here. On top of all this, the increasingly Democratic mantra of the city as the crowning achievement of civilisation draws a lot of resentment as us rural folks face ever-worsening
poverty, drug use, and suicide rates from lack of economic opportunity.


Unless someone that considers themselves a paternalistic conservative, I sympathize with the problems that people in rural areas face. I want to help them along with people experiencing the same issues in urban areas. There’s gonna have to be some class collaboration and we need to drop the “us vs them”

Also, there has to be a limit on the populism that many rural folk embrace. It’s going to come to a point where anybody that has more than a high school diploma, this includes associates and trade schools is part of the “elite”.
Last edited by Prima Scriptura on Thu May 12, 2022 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I’m a Protestant Christian and American Patriot. 30 year-old male from MPLS, MN. Volcel with SSA.
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
Sola gratia. Sola fide. Soli Deo gloria. Solus Christus
1 Chronicles 16:34
Psalms 147:3
Isaiah 53:5
Luke 9:23
Romans 3:22-24
2 Corinthians 5:17

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