The Blaatschapen wrote:Wait, so this button means that I can't beat up people and get away with it?
But that's my whole job! How will I then earn money.
I'm a battery ram.
I'm afraid you'll have to be discharged.
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by Ifreann » Wed May 11, 2022 4:46 am
The Blaatschapen wrote:Wait, so this button means that I can't beat up people and get away with it?
But that's my whole job! How will I then earn money.
I'm a battery ram.

by Ethel mermania » Wed May 11, 2022 4:58 am

by Chan Island » Fri May 13, 2022 10:04 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

by The Order of Makai » Fri May 13, 2022 10:19 am
Chan Island wrote:So this hypothetical continues to live rentfree in my head, and I think I have a fairly good idea as to what would happen over the next 100-200 years of the hypothetical.
.....
Measured in After Button Push, the critical moment when human history changed forever.
2 days to 1 week ABP: Mass panic. Millions of people disappear in plain view of everyone. Authorities struggle to maintain control, cities burn.
1 week-2 weeks: The world starts to figure out the recipe for what makes a person disappear or not. Soldiers fighting in Ukraine may be ordered to go back to fighting as the war exception is noted. World economy has crashed. Order is largely restored in most places as would-be revolutionaries get disappeared as soon as they try anything. Hundreds of millions at the very least have disappeared, and that order is in large function due to the terror of not wanting to touch another person.
2 weeks to 6 months: I imagine this to be a bit of a status quo antebellum- the world will largely try to reorganise itself along lines comparable to the modern order, just in fear of the strange disappearing magic. The most clever and enterprising individuals start to peace together that disappearances may be tied to laws. The first people disappeared will be reappearing, bringing a temporary reassurance that the worst is over.
6 months: Disappeared people in the UK will start to reappear in force, as this is the maximum sentence in prison for battery in this country. By now, it will be obvious that the disappearances are linked to laws around battery, with spells in the disappearance place tied directly to the nature of their crimes. Some governments will hastily write out the battery laws from their law codes- they will find that the disappearances cease altogether within their borders. Others will experiment with tepid expansions of the definition to see where it takes them.
~ 1 year: The first war of conquest is likely to be around this time- since war is an exception to the disappearances, but not resistance, wars will heavily favour the aggressor. This first conflict will be widely condemned, but others will follow in its wake. Meanwhile, nations will be fiercely debating the pros and cons of keeping battery laws in place; freedom loving nations will seek to legalise the crime to stop the disappearances, meanwhile autocracies will be fully in the business of expanding the definition, delighting in finding many inconvenient people no longer being a problem. Some countries will try to write laws defining a foreign army in their borders as battery- this will be in vain.
1-10 years: Despite best efforts, most world leaders by now will have fully grasped the unfair advantage they now have over everyone else, and jealously use it. Battery laws will be introduced in the vast majority of countries that scrapped them before- others will expand the definitions further. A handful of small nations market themselves on their nonexistent or loose battery laws, drawing in a crowd of rich sadists who relish in the new luxury of being able to hit someone without disappearing. These countries will prosper. Meanwhile, wars of conquest have started to become the norm again, though in this period great powers will avoid direct confrontation with each other. The first genocide using the disappearance machine will be carried out in this period- hundreds of thousands or millions suddenly poofed for 1000 years by a law defining being of X-group in the nation as battery.
10-15 years: The number of nations in the world has reduced by about 10%- no new nations are created or ever will be ever again. World population has fallen by about 10% as well, mostly through genocide by disappearance machine. All the economic woes associated with such a drop will strike home, further incentivising war, especially as civil unrest is impossible. The world map's changes are about to come very fast and loose.
15-50 years: An age of mass warfare as world powers attempt to take their slices of the world. The number of nations in existence plummets as blitzkrieging armies find that they only need to take territory to win, and need to spare nothing for resistance thanks to the disappearing magic. Meanwhile, the last welfare states by now cease to exist as the new generation of world leaders doesn't see why they should be paying for poor people to exist- ironically the world looks a lot like the Napoleonic era. Taxation skyrockets to fight the wars, and not paying them is battery. Nuclear war is a near certainty in this period but will not mean the collapse of states- after all, if the legitimate government still exists then your post-nuclear commune can't resist them or disappear.
50-80 years: It's a brave new world- the world population has more than halved. Many ethnicities and languages are now a memory, disappeared by some dictator's stroke of a pen. The number of nations in existence has fallen well into the double digits. They will fit into one of broad 2 categories: either totalitarian empires with battery laws that mean even the slightest hint of opposition to result in disappearances, or small city states that exist as playgrounds for the rich to abuse as many slaves as they like. Both of these will be nightmares for the vast majority of humanity to live in, as human rights as we know them are very much dead with no hope of return. I'd actually expect this era to be much more peaceful- the endless grinding of armies and nuclear war costs money, disappearance powers or not.
80- ? years: 1 by 1, the remaining world powers start to whittle themselves down as they lose wars and get annexed. Who the winner of this grim battle royale to be is impossible to predict now, but it will almost certainly be a large nation in existence when the button was pushed. Given time though, with the push of history only going one way, it will eventually settle into a one world government, of hellish control that Big Brother dreams of having had, and the human species forever under the boot of the magic disappearance button, for ever, until the stars snuff out and the wretched species gets the sweet release extinction.

by Chan Island » Fri May 13, 2022 10:22 am
The Order of Makai wrote:Chan Island wrote:So this hypothetical continues to live rentfree in my head, and I think I have a fairly good idea as to what would happen over the next 100-200 years of the hypothetical.
.....
Measured in After Button Push, the critical moment when human history changed forever.
2 days to 1 week ABP: Mass panic. Millions of people disappear in plain view of everyone. Authorities struggle to maintain control, cities burn.
1 week-2 weeks: The world starts to figure out the recipe for what makes a person disappear or not. Soldiers fighting in Ukraine may be ordered to go back to fighting as the war exception is noted. World economy has crashed. Order is largely restored in most places as would-be revolutionaries get disappeared as soon as they try anything. Hundreds of millions at the very least have disappeared, and that order is in large function due to the terror of not wanting to touch another person.
2 weeks to 6 months: I imagine this to be a bit of a status quo antebellum- the world will largely try to reorganise itself along lines comparable to the modern order, just in fear of the strange disappearing magic. The most clever and enterprising individuals start to peace together that disappearances may be tied to laws. The first people disappeared will be reappearing, bringing a temporary reassurance that the worst is over.
6 months: Disappeared people in the UK will start to reappear in force, as this is the maximum sentence in prison for battery in this country. By now, it will be obvious that the disappearances are linked to laws around battery, with spells in the disappearance place tied directly to the nature of their crimes. Some governments will hastily write out the battery laws from their law codes- they will find that the disappearances cease altogether within their borders. Others will experiment with tepid expansions of the definition to see where it takes them.
~ 1 year: The first war of conquest is likely to be around this time- since war is an exception to the disappearances, but not resistance, wars will heavily favour the aggressor. This first conflict will be widely condemned, but others will follow in its wake. Meanwhile, nations will be fiercely debating the pros and cons of keeping battery laws in place; freedom loving nations will seek to legalise the crime to stop the disappearances, meanwhile autocracies will be fully in the business of expanding the definition, delighting in finding many inconvenient people no longer being a problem. Some countries will try to write laws defining a foreign army in their borders as battery- this will be in vain.
1-10 years: Despite best efforts, most world leaders by now will have fully grasped the unfair advantage they now have over everyone else, and jealously use it. Battery laws will be introduced in the vast majority of countries that scrapped them before- others will expand the definitions further. A handful of small nations market themselves on their nonexistent or loose battery laws, drawing in a crowd of rich sadists who relish in the new luxury of being able to hit someone without disappearing. These countries will prosper. Meanwhile, wars of conquest have started to become the norm again, though in this period great powers will avoid direct confrontation with each other. The first genocide using the disappearance machine will be carried out in this period- hundreds of thousands or millions suddenly poofed for 1000 years by a law defining being of X-group in the nation as battery.
10-15 years: The number of nations in the world has reduced by about 10%- no new nations are created or ever will be ever again. World population has fallen by about 10% as well, mostly through genocide by disappearance machine. All the economic woes associated with such a drop will strike home, further incentivising war, especially as civil unrest is impossible. The world map's changes are about to come very fast and loose.
15-50 years: An age of mass warfare as world powers attempt to take their slices of the world. The number of nations in existence plummets as blitzkrieging armies find that they only need to take territory to win, and need to spare nothing for resistance thanks to the disappearing magic. Meanwhile, the last welfare states by now cease to exist as the new generation of world leaders doesn't see why they should be paying for poor people to exist- ironically the world looks a lot like the Napoleonic era. Taxation skyrockets to fight the wars, and not paying them is battery. Nuclear war is a near certainty in this period but will not mean the collapse of states- after all, if the legitimate government still exists then your post-nuclear commune can't resist them or disappear.
50-80 years: It's a brave new world- the world population has more than halved. Many ethnicities and languages are now a memory, disappeared by some dictator's stroke of a pen. The number of nations in existence has fallen well into the double digits. They will fit into one of broad 2 categories: either totalitarian empires with battery laws that mean even the slightest hint of opposition to result in disappearances, or small city states that exist as playgrounds for the rich to abuse as many slaves as they like. Both of these will be nightmares for the vast majority of humanity to live in, as human rights as we know them are very much dead with no hope of return. I'd actually expect this era to be much more peaceful- the endless grinding of armies and nuclear war costs money, disappearance powers or not.
80- ? years: 1 by 1, the remaining world powers start to whittle themselves down as they lose wars and get annexed. Who the winner of this grim battle royale to be is impossible to predict now, but it will almost certainly be a large nation in existence when the button was pushed. Given time though, with the push of history only going one way, it will eventually settle into a one world government, of hellish control that Big Brother dreams of having had, and the human species forever under the boot of the magic disappearance button, for ever, until the stars snuff out and the wretched species gets the sweet release extinction.
Way to miss the damn point of the hypothetical and go onto a grimderp bullshit spiral. Laws do not dictate reality, they merely help to define just what it is. Battery is simply the infliction of violence, nothing more or less, not "not paying taxes" no matter what some moron law maker says.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

by The Order of Makai » Fri May 13, 2022 10:29 am
Chan Island wrote:The Order of Makai wrote:
Way to miss the damn point of the hypothetical and go onto a grimderp bullshit spiral. Laws do not dictate reality, they merely help to define just what it is. Battery is simply the infliction of violence, nothing more or less, not "not paying taxes" no matter what some moron law maker says.
IM has repeatedly told us that governments are allowed to define battery as they see fit in this hypothetical. The definition of battery will change in such a scenario.

by Chan Island » Fri May 13, 2022 10:37 am
The Order of Makai wrote:Chan Island wrote:
IM has repeatedly told us that governments are allowed to define battery as they see fit in this hypothetical. The definition of battery will change in such a scenario.
Well they're wrong then in my opinion. Otherwise you'll get stupid unenforceable garbage like laws that declare everyone else in the world to be a citizen of the nation and subject to their stupid laws, and then they just write "Battery is being anyone who isn't me/whatever" and badabing badaboom everyone else is gone. See how silly that is to let laws dictate reality?
And excepting what I just said, even in your silly scenario, all you have to do is renounce your citizenship and your free from the "laws" of that state. And then just like that we've taken the short road to what you took the long road for: Total War.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

by The Order of Makai » Fri May 13, 2022 10:47 am
Chan Island wrote:The Order of Makai wrote:
Well they're wrong then in my opinion. Otherwise you'll get stupid unenforceable garbage like laws that declare everyone else in the world to be a citizen of the nation and subject to their stupid laws, and then they just write "Battery is being anyone who isn't me/whatever" and badabing badaboom everyone else is gone. See how silly that is to let laws dictate reality?
And excepting what I just said, even in your silly scenario, all you have to do is renounce your citizenship and your free from the "laws" of that state. And then just like that we've taken the short road to what you took the long road for: Total War.
We can safely assume laws like that won't be followed through as they'd clash with the laws of other states, and IM has said its not a force to homogenise the world (directly anyway) but that problem can be solved as IM has also specified that war is not covered by this hypothetical buttons powers.
As for the renouncing citizenship thing 1) even if you renounce your citizenship, you are still subject to the laws of the country you are in. Citizenship being neither here or there. 2) even if that worked, states could write a law saying renouncing your citizenship is an act of battery, and poof, more disappearances.
Ultimately however, I agree: laws dictating reality is an extremely silly thing. And a terrifying one, as I've illustrated . The button in this hypothetical however let's governments do exactly that.
by The United Penguin Commonwealth » Fri May 13, 2022 12:24 pm
The Order of Makai wrote:Chan Island wrote:
We can safely assume laws like that won't be followed through as they'd clash with the laws of other states, and IM has said its not a force to homogenise the world (directly anyway) but that problem can be solved as IM has also specified that war is not covered by this hypothetical buttons powers.
As for the renouncing citizenship thing 1) even if you renounce your citizenship, you are still subject to the laws of the country you are in. Citizenship being neither here or there. 2) even if that worked, states could write a law saying renouncing your citizenship is an act of battery, and poof, more disappearances.
Ultimately however, I agree: laws dictating reality is an extremely silly thing. And a terrifying one, as I've illustrated . The button in this hypothetical however let's governments do exactly that.
Let's agree to disagree about the citizenship renunciation, the laws of a state are by definition written for the subjects of the state for the protection of certain rights and securities in exchange for some freedoms and the dictation of punishments, they are not written with foreigners in mind even today, the way that "law breaking foreigners" are treated is merely because of established precedent and a state's desire to play nice with other state's, it's ad-hoc law rather than actual written law. Also notice how today that there are no real rights or protections afforded to stateless people, that is, people who have no citizenship with any state.
Focusing on laws dictating reality is not the point of the thread however. The point of the thread is to theorize on just how society and culture would change from such a dramatic deterrence to violence, which the last few pages have derailed from.

by Lanoraie II » Sat May 14, 2022 1:27 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:Are the results important or is the process important?[/spoiler]

by Eahland » Sat May 14, 2022 10:28 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:Eahland wrote:
Not that I'd trust it any more if you wrote the definition of "battery". One of my hobbies involves hitting my friends with rattan sticks, a whole hell of a lot harder than that little play-slap Will Smith gave Chris Rock. We have armor, but still, bruises are par for the course.
So you beat people up with sticks for fun? And that’s supposed to be a valid counter argument?
If you and your friends consented to the exercise, then up a certain degree of injury the common law in some places would recognize it as an exception to actionable battery.

by Infected Mushroom » Sat May 14, 2022 10:33 am
Eahland wrote:Infected Mushroom wrote:
So you beat people up with sticks for fun? And that’s supposed to be a valid counter argument?
If you and your friends consented to the exercise, then up a certain degree of injury the common law in some places would recognize it as an exception to actionable battery.
That you immediately dismiss my concern about being magically banished to another dimension because of my martial arts hobby as "invalid" pretty well illustrates why I don't trust you to define what will get people magically banished.
Also that you completely ignored all the other valid counter-arguments I presented.Lanoraie II wrote:
I'll try to come back to this later, but this sentence is incredibly profound and you've just kind of spun my brain around with that phrasing. Woah.
There's an unspoken assumption buried in there that inflexible legalism mechanically applied without judgment, compassion, or mercy is the "correct" result. It is not.
by Adamede » Sat May 14, 2022 4:48 pm
Chan Island wrote:So this hypothetical continues to live rentfree in my head, and I think I have a fairly good idea as to what would happen over the next 100-200 years of the hypothetical.
.....
Measured in After Button Push, the critical moment when human history changed forever.
2 days to 1 week ABP: Mass panic. Millions of people disappear in plain view of everyone. Authorities struggle to maintain control, cities burn.
1 week-2 weeks: The world starts to figure out the recipe for what makes a person disappear or not. Soldiers fighting in Ukraine may be ordered to go back to fighting as the war exception is noted. World economy has crashed. Order is largely restored in most places as would-be revolutionaries get disappeared as soon as they try anything. Hundreds of millions at the very least have disappeared, and that order is in large function due to the terror of not wanting to touch another person.
2 weeks to 6 months: I imagine this to be a bit of a status quo antebellum- the world will largely try to reorganise itself along lines comparable to the modern order, just in fear of the strange disappearing magic. The most clever and enterprising individuals start to peace together that disappearances may be tied to laws. The first people disappeared will be reappearing, bringing a temporary reassurance that the worst is over.
6 months: Disappeared people in the UK will start to reappear in force, as this is the maximum sentence in prison for battery in this country. By now, it will be obvious that the disappearances are linked to laws around battery, with spells in the disappearance place tied directly to the nature of their crimes. Some governments will hastily write out the battery laws from their law codes- they will find that the disappearances cease altogether within their borders. Others will experiment with tepid expansions of the definition to see where it takes them.
~ 1 year: The first war of conquest is likely to be around this time- since war is an exception to the disappearances, but not resistance, wars will heavily favour the aggressor. This first conflict will be widely condemned, but others will follow in its wake. Meanwhile, nations will be fiercely debating the pros and cons of keeping battery laws in place; freedom loving nations will seek to legalise the crime to stop the disappearances, meanwhile autocracies will be fully in the business of expanding the definition, delighting in finding many inconvenient people no longer being a problem. Some countries will try to write laws defining a foreign army in their borders as battery- this will be in vain.
1-10 years: Despite best efforts, most world leaders by now will have fully grasped the unfair advantage they now have over everyone else, and jealously use it. Battery laws will be introduced in the vast majority of countries that scrapped them before- others will expand the definitions further. A handful of small nations market themselves on their nonexistent or loose battery laws, drawing in a crowd of rich sadists who relish in the new luxury of being able to hit someone without disappearing. These countries will prosper. Meanwhile, wars of conquest have started to become the norm again, though in this period great powers will avoid direct confrontation with each other. The first genocide using the disappearance machine will be carried out in this period- hundreds of thousands or millions suddenly poofed for 1000 years by a law defining being of X-group in the nation as battery.
10-15 years: The number of nations in the world has reduced by about 10%- no new nations are created or ever will be ever again. World population has fallen by about 10% as well, mostly through genocide by disappearance machine. All the economic woes associated with such a drop will strike home, further incentivising war, especially as civil unrest is impossible. The world map's changes are about to come very fast and loose.
15-50 years: An age of mass warfare as world powers attempt to take their slices of the world. The number of nations in existence plummets as blitzkrieging armies find that they only need to take territory to win, and need to spare nothing for resistance thanks to the disappearing magic. Meanwhile, the last welfare states by now cease to exist as the new generation of world leaders doesn't see why they should be paying for poor people to exist- ironically the world looks a lot like the Napoleonic era. Taxation skyrockets to fight the wars, and not paying them is battery. Nuclear war is a near certainty in this period but will not mean the collapse of states- after all, if the legitimate government still exists then your post-nuclear commune can't resist them or disappear.
50-80 years: It's a brave new world- the world population has more than halved. Many ethnicities and languages are now a memory, disappeared by some dictator's stroke of a pen. The number of nations in existence has fallen well into the double digits. They will fit into one of broad 2 categories: either totalitarian empires with battery laws that mean even the slightest hint of opposition to result in disappearances, or small city states that exist as playgrounds for the rich to abuse as many slaves as they like. Both of these will be nightmares for the vast majority of humanity to live in, as human rights as we know them are very much dead with no hope of return. I'd actually expect this era to be much more peaceful- the endless grinding of armies and nuclear war costs money, disappearance powers or not.
80- ? years: 1 by 1, the remaining world powers start to whittle themselves down as they lose wars and get annexed. Who the winner of this grim battle royale to be is impossible to predict now, but it will almost certainly be a large nation in existence when the button was pushed. Given time though, with the push of history only going one way, it will eventually settle into a one world government, of hellish control that Big Brother dreams of having had, and the human species forever under the boot of the magic disappearance button, for ever, until the stars snuff out and the wretched species gets the sweet release extinction.

by Burger Kings Kingdom » Sat May 14, 2022 4:52 pm

by Haganham » Sun May 15, 2022 5:03 am
The Order of Makai wrote: See how silly that is
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