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Should the supreme court repeal Wickard V Filburn?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Wicky wicky wicky.

Repeal Wickard.
31
69%
Don't Repeal Wickard.
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Wild wild west
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Total votes : 45

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Ostroeuropa
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Should the supreme court repeal Wickard V Filburn?

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon May 09, 2022 2:31 pm

Since we're repealing cases that have been used in other cases and are precedents but not "super precedents" or whatever, should the Supreme Court repeal Wickard V Filburn?

For those who don't know;

An Ohio farmer, Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat to feed animals on his own farm. The US government had established limits on wheat production, based on the acreage owned by a farmer, to stabilize wheat prices and supplies. Filburn grew more than was permitted and so was ordered to pay a penalty. In response, he said that because his wheat was not sold, it could not be regulated as commerce, let alone "interstate" commerce (described in the Constitution as "Commerce... among the several states").

The Supreme Court disagreed: "Whether the subject of the regulation in question was 'production', 'consumption', or 'marketing' is, therefore, not material for purposes of deciding the question of federal power before us.... But even if appellee's activity be local and though it may not be regarded as commerce, it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce and this irrespective of whether such effect is what might at some earlier time have been defined as 'direct' or 'indirect.'"

The Supreme Court interpreted the Constitution's Commerce Clause, in Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution, which permits the US Congress "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." The Court decided that Filburn's wheat-growing activities reduced the amount of wheat he would buy for animal feed on the open market, which is traded nationally, is thus interstate, and is therefore within the scope of the Commerce Clause.

The Supreme Court has since relied heavily on Wickard in upholding the power of the federal government to prosecute individuals who grow their own medicinal marijuana pursuant to state law. The Supreme Court would hold in Gonzalez v. Raich (2005) that like with the home-grown wheat at issue in Wickard, home-grown marijuana is a legitimate subject of federal regulation because it competes with marijuana that moves in interstate commerce. Wickard thus establishes that Congress can regulate purely intrastate activity that is not itself "commercial", in that it is not produced for sale, if it concludes that failure to regulate that class of activity would undercut the regulation of the interstate market in that commodity.

Wickard was central to arguments in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius and Florida v. United States Department of Health and Human Services on the constitutionality of the individual mandate of the Affordable Care Act.


What do you think NSG? Should people be able to ... you know.

Grow wheat if they like? Weed? That kind of shit?

More seriously, should Wickard be repealed? The federal government has relied on this interpretation of the commerce clause (An interpretation that is a hell of a reach in many peoples opinion) in order to enact countless laws and have them upheld. Repealing Wickard would dramatically limit the ability of the central government to act and enforce regulations on intrastate activity.

Should it be done? Why or why not?

I see arguments on both sides of the aisle for doing so. Personally, I think that it should be repealed if only because of the wheat and marijuana examples, it seems to me a comical case of overreach.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon May 09, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Mon May 09, 2022 2:37 pm

I can see a case for regulating commercial products, since they are sold on the same market as imports from other states, but regulating what a person can make for their own personal consumption is an overreach.
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Meadowfields
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Postby Meadowfields » Mon May 09, 2022 2:39 pm

Oof, I accidentally voted No, is there a way to change it?
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon May 09, 2022 2:39 pm

Nazi Flower Power wrote:I can see a case for regulating commercial products, since they are sold on the same market as imports from other states, but regulating what a person can make for their own personal consumption is an overreach.


Wickard's argument seemed to be largely that.

1. It is not commerce if i'm not selling it

and

2. Even if it was, it isn't interstate commerce.


You buy the 1st but not the 2nd then?


Meadowfields wrote:Oof, I accidentally voted No, is there a way to change it?


I have enabled revoting for you. :)
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon May 09, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meadowfields
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Postby Meadowfields » Mon May 09, 2022 2:41 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Nazi Flower Power wrote:I can see a case for regulating commercial products, since they are sold on the same market as imports from other states, but regulating what a person can make for their own personal consumption is an overreach.


Wickard's argument seemed to be largely that.

1. It is not commerce if i'm not selling it

and

2. Even if it was, it isn't interstate commerce.


You buy the 1st but not the 2nd then?


Meadowfields wrote:Oof, I accidentally voted No, is there a way to change it?


I have enabled revoting for you. :)

Thanks!
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Mon May 09, 2022 3:11 pm

As far as I know this was some new deal law to revive the economy and limit the overproduction that was contributing to the great depression. Don’t quote me on that though.
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Barfleur
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Postby Barfleur » Mon May 09, 2022 3:17 pm

There was a bit more nuance to the Wickard case than simply "everything is interstate commerce," but I agree that it is a drastic expansion of congressional authority. It also contradicts an older case, E. C. Knight Co., which basically held that manufacturing goods (and presumably growing crops) occurs before commerce, and is not a part o it. Wickard threw that out, with the idea being that if everyone grew their own wheat, that would affect interstate commerce, and a specific farmer choosing to grow wheat would mean he or she would not need to buy wheat grown elsewhere, so...

I think it ought to be overturned.
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Postby Galloism » Mon May 09, 2022 4:25 pm

I’m in favor of overturning (not repealing, that’s a legislative action) Wickard, but on narrow grounds.

I’m ok with the fed regulating intrastate commerce that substantially affects interstate commerce (also, this should be subject to intermediate scrutiny). But the idea that growing or making something for personal/home use is subject to interstate commerce regulation is absurd.
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Postby Archinstinct » Mon May 09, 2022 6:51 pm

Wow. Based Ostroeuropa?

I haven't read the replies, but I imagine repealing this will to get across the spectrum agreement.
Last edited by Archinstinct on Tue May 10, 2022 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Page » Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 am

Yeah, repeal the fuck out of it. Especially because I one day hope to grow my own kratom trees in Florida.
Last edited by Page on Tue May 10, 2022 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dogmeat » Tue May 10, 2022 6:44 am

In practice what repealing this would do is give large corporations the ability to produce their own good for internal use, and not report them as part of their total production.

I can't, over the course of the 10 minutes I've been thinking about this, think of all the consequences that would have. But I'm guessing that, at the very least, it would allow them to sidestep multiple environmental regulations. And probably dodge taxes somehow too.
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Postby Page » Tue May 10, 2022 6:55 am

Dogmeat wrote:In practice what repealing this would do is give large corporations the ability to produce their own good for internal use, and not report them as part of their total production.

I can't, over the course of the 10 minutes I've been thinking about this, think of all the consequences that would have. But I'm guessing that, at the very least, it would allow them to sidestep multiple environmental regulations. And probably dodge taxes somehow too.


As much as it sucks for big corporations and the rich assholes who run them to get away with tax dodging, if you don't consider bleeding regular people dry to be an acceptable casualty, it's still better to overturn it.
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Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 10, 2022 6:58 am

Besides leading to a distorted market, based on state limitations, it is unconstitutional/federal overstretch. A state can have such a law and regulatory body on the books, but there is nothing in the Constitution for such federal powers.
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Postby Galloism » Tue May 10, 2022 7:18 am

Dogmeat wrote:In practice what repealing this would do is give large corporations the ability to produce their own good for internal use, and not report them as part of their total production.

I can't, over the course of the 10 minutes I've been thinking about this, think of all the consequences that would have. But I'm guessing that, at the very least, it would allow them to sidestep multiple environmental regulations. And probably dodge taxes somehow too.

This would probably have no tax implications to speak of. Taxation standards stand on their own due to the Internal Revenue Code backed by the authority of the 16th amendment, and would not be impacted by an overturning of Wickard (on broad or narrow grounds).
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Postby Kowani » Tue May 10, 2022 7:46 am

more congressional power over the economy good, keep Wickard strong
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Postby HC Eredivisie » Tue May 10, 2022 9:37 am

No, if there's a need to adjust the amount of wheat/acreage the goverment should adjust it but there's no need to repeal it.

Ostroeuropa wrote:What do you think NSG? Should people be able to ... you know.
Yes, people should be ablo to grow as they wish at home but this refers to farmers and they are business.
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Postby American Legionaries » Tue May 10, 2022 1:21 pm

Dogmeat wrote:In practice what repealing this would do is give large corporations the ability to produce their own good for internal use, and not report them as part of their total production.

I can't, over the course of the 10 minutes I've been thinking about this, think of all the consequences that would have. But I'm guessing that, at the very least, it would allow them to sidestep multiple environmental regulations. And probably dodge taxes somehow too.


Internal products aren't taxed as far as I'm aware. But environmental regs might be ducked easier this way.

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Postby Ors Might » Tue May 10, 2022 1:25 pm

Wickard is just straight up a bad ruling, as you cannot in good faith argue that a product not being sold and only utilized for personal use qualifies as commerce.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Tue May 10, 2022 3:08 pm

Absolutely. "Producing something for personal use means you'll buy less of it from the open market, which is impacting interstate commerce therefore Congress can regulate it" is an idiotic take.
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Postby Space Squid » Tue May 10, 2022 10:16 pm

Page wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:In practice what repealing this would do is give large corporations the ability to produce their own good for internal use, and not report them as part of their total production.

I can't, over the course of the 10 minutes I've been thinking about this, think of all the consequences that would have. But I'm guessing that, at the very least, it would allow them to sidestep multiple environmental regulations. And probably dodge taxes somehow too.


As much as it sucks for big corporations and the rich assholes who run them to get away with tax dodging, if you don't consider bleeding regular people dry to be an acceptable casualty, it's still better to overturn it.

Are regular people bled dry by this?
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Postby Page » Tue May 10, 2022 10:47 pm

Space Squid wrote:
Page wrote:
As much as it sucks for big corporations and the rich assholes who run them to get away with tax dodging, if you don't consider bleeding regular people dry to be an acceptable casualty, it's still better to overturn it.

Are regular people bled dry by this?


Says so right in the OP that the feds use this to go after people growing their own medicinal cannabis.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue May 10, 2022 11:51 pm

Commerce = relating to buying, selling, trading, production substantially relating to buying, selling, trading

Interstate = between states

“Interstate commerce”

Yes if the production of the wheat did substantially affect the trade of wheat between states. No if it doesn’t.

The court found that it did, hence it’s a ruling that makes sense.

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Tillania
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Postby Tillania » Wed May 11, 2022 3:35 am

If it can affect someone growing cannabis then of course we must immediately deregulate businesses.
They are probably also unduly burdened by tons of other stuff corporations want to get rid of.
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Kerwa
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Postby Kerwa » Wed May 11, 2022 4:11 am

Somehow I feel that weakening the commerce clause by strictly interpreting it may have unforeseen consequences.

Would depend on the decision.

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Postby Jello Biafra » Fri May 27, 2022 1:20 am

Galloism wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:In practice what repealing this would do is give large corporations the ability to produce their own good for internal use, and not report them as part of their total production.

I can't, over the course of the 10 minutes I've been thinking about this, think of all the consequences that would have. But I'm guessing that, at the very least, it would allow them to sidestep multiple environmental regulations. And probably dodge taxes somehow too.

This would probably have no tax implications to speak of. Taxation standards stand on their own due to the Internal Revenue Code backed by the authority of the 16th amendment, and would not be impacted by an overturning of Wickard (on broad or narrow grounds).

I would think this would more likely allow someone to dodge sales taxes, not income taxes.

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