NATION

PASSWORD

Re: Exploitation of Labour?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Which work plan will you use over the three months?

1. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).
6
23%
2. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.
0
No votes
3. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).
1
4%
4. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.
0
No votes
5. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).
2
8%
6. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.
2
8%
7. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).
3
12%
8. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.
12
46%
 
Total votes : 26

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Re: Exploitation of Labour?

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue May 03, 2022 8:18 pm

Please consider the following hypothetical:

This is a thought experiment that encourages you to think about your personal views on the appropriate level of exploitation of labour in a given context.




You are a kid and you have a little sister. Your parents leave you home alone to go to a business meeting in the city. In this corner of the IM Verse, this is not illegal.

While the parents are gone, a young woman (Anna Castillo) comes and tries to kidnap you and your brother and hand you over to the cartel as part of a massive kidnapping and ransom scheme. Anna has a long uninterrupted string of successful thefts, con artistry feats, and burglaries (often using her looks to her advantage). Recently, she’s upgraded to kidnapping and extortion.

You and your sister get lucky because your playing I Spy by the window and so you see her approach the house (on the way, she uses a tranq gun with a large magazine to shoot and knock out your dog).

Realizing there’s no phone, you and your sister set up defenses around the house and prepare to hold the fort.

Round 1:
Not realizing you’ve already seen her, Anna attempts to stealthily enter the house using a ladder she brought to access a high open window. However, you’ve laced the steel ledge with canola oil. When she gets there she struggles against the surface and trips and falls spectacularly from the height and lands into lots of sharp plants.

You: “Hello. Sorry about the unfriendly welcome, but you did try to break into the house. That’s a No No.”

Raging, Anna attempts to shoot you with the tranq gun but misses. You retaliate by dropping down a basketball. She dodged the basketball but she catches a rock and trips, landing a second time into the messy plants.

Round 2:
Realizing stealth is out, Anna destroys a panel using a window breaker and enters your living room. She is welcomed by you taking photos from atop a flight of stairs.

You: “SAY CHEESE! Thank you for letting me take these photos. The police will find them very useful for identifying you.”

She aims her tranq gun and shoots so you take cover by the railings. She sprints up the stairs. Even though you’ve stacked all the steps with sharp toys as an improvised defense line, her shoes offer her complete protection as she closes the gap. But then you deploy a large bag’s worth of rolling marbles. Anna catches the marbles and falls over spectacularly, screaming and landing very painfully into a collection of toy soldiers and trains (and dropping her gun). She stands up and makes a leaping grab for you (you manage to avoid this by luck, the merest of inches). When she reaches the top of the stairs, you throw yourself facedown.

That’s when your sister, standing in a hall, activates a baseball pitching machine set to max power (you: “Bombardiers to your station!”). Anna attempts to shield herself but she gets blasted back by the relentless fire from the baseball machine. She falls down the stairs and takes more damage, this time from a collection of brightly colored plastic jacks!

As the baseballs keep firing, she realizes she can’t attack the house from this direction and retreats, picking her gun back up.

Round 3:
Anna reloads her gun to the max and enters through yet another room (after breaking another window). She sneaks upstairs and engages you and your sister across the ballroom. The two of you improvise and put on massive life jackets (which somehow act as protection against the darts from her gun).

After lots of running around, you lead Anna into a prepares position and she takes a consecutive damage from a spectacular series of gizmos. This allows you to finally take her down. You restrain her unconscious form with skipping ropes from a cupboard (using some knots your sister learned from Girl Scouts) and at some point the police do show and arrest her.




Following her defeat and arrest, Anna Castillo is linked to all of her crimes and this threatens to generate a very lengthy prison sentence. To avoid jail, she very resentfully agrees to enter into a special deal with the government whereby she would perform “community service” and “restitution.” In addition to being forced to pay financial compensation, she must also stay at your place for three months and work as a “household servant” to the satisfaction of the owners.

Anna signs the deal and shows up. Meanwhile your parents are eager to profit from the free labour but decide to relegate the assignment of her tasks to you as a summer project. Anna really hates this but fully understands that your parents could say at any time that the deal is off and/or refuse to sign her forms at the end. Furthermore, two elite police officers stay with you for the three months to enforce the agreement.

There’s a three gray areas you can customize for the work plan.

The first customizable factor is the workload over the three months. There are chores to be done throughout the house and in the yard but you could potentially come up with lots of additional time and labor-intensive projects, some beneficial to your property, others purely frivolous. Will the assignment or work be light, medium, heavy/excessively heavy?

The second customizable factor is whether or not to extend a number of employment benefits to her like a low wage, reasonable work hours, and statutory holidays. The law says you don’t have to (she’s not an employee) but you may decide to be gracious or not.

The third customizable factor is with the family farm issue. Under the agreement she’s a “household servant” but the interpretation of that is very broad (though the current law isn’t necessarily fair according to your values). Will you take a restrictive view of “household servant” and only assign her work in the house and yard, or would you take a broad view of the term and use her for farm labour as well? There is a great deal of busywork that is needed at the farm on a daily basis but you might consider this exploitation of labour.




In reaching a decision, you may wish to consider the following issues (though you can justify your decision in any way): 1. How do you balance mercy and humane treatment with the punitive and economic dimensions of the sentence? 2. With the law as currently written, where do you personally draw the line with respect to exploitation of labour? 3. What is your objective with respect to how you manage this agreement? Is it primarily punitive or restorative? A mix of both?

Here are the labour plans (with all combinations for the customizable factors). Due to limited poll options some work settings will be blended in the vote but you can clarify in the discussion:

1. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

2. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.

3. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

4. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.

5. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

6. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.

7. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

8. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.


Please justify your decision.

After considering all factors I would choose a variation of option 5. My justification is as follows: the labour needs to be heavy because it is supposed to be a punishment in lieu of prison time. I would extend benefits such as statutory holidays and reasonable work hours though because to deny those would be spiteful but I wouldn’t pay a wage because I think that’s too closely connected with being an employee (and she’s not). Even though past arrangements have allowed the expansive interpretation of “household servant” I personally don’t think extending it to farm labor is fair play. Doing so could cross the line into unconscionable exploitation of labour.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu May 05, 2022 4:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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South Olpen
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Postby South Olpen » Tue May 03, 2022 8:28 pm

In the magical occurence the house isn't firebombed by outraged liberals, I would likely choose 7. I would grant Sunday evenings off, and I would, depending on how close I was to the attack, give major holidays of her religion off. She tried to kidnap me and sell me into slavery. She tried to sell 2 children into slavery. She hurt my dog. I do not feel sorry. However, she is a human, and I consider myself above straight slavery. No salary.
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Moscareinas
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Postby Moscareinas » Tue May 03, 2022 9:08 pm

the home alone series was one of my favorite movies to watch before i turned 11
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue May 03, 2022 9:14 pm

Moscareinas wrote:the home alone series was one of my favorite movies to watch before i turned 11


I love home alone. I wanted to recreate some of its magic here with my own sequences.

Which option would you lean towards under the hypothetical? What is most fair/proper?

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The United Penguin Commonwealth
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Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Wed May 04, 2022 6:01 am

oddly specific

this is the most random hypothetical yet.
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Postby Nevertopia » Wed May 04, 2022 6:05 am

arent these the posts about having tastebuds in your butthole or something?
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed May 04, 2022 6:19 am

Can I be called Kevin in this scenario?

Edit: I don't think that kids should be in a position where they can decide such punishments and decisions.
Last edited by The Blaatschapen on Wed May 04, 2022 6:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed May 04, 2022 6:25 am

Image

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Postby Hispida » Wed May 04, 2022 6:33 am

jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed May 04, 2022 7:11 am

The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:oddly specific

this is the most random hypothetical yet.


How come?

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed May 04, 2022 7:11 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:Can I be called Kevin in this scenario?

Edit: I don't think that kids should be in a position where they can decide such punishments and decisions.


Sure. You can be called Kevin. Do you like this name? You want to be the same name as Home Alone?

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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Wed May 04, 2022 7:13 am

This thread really inspires me. Incredibly.

Not the scenario, but I think I should start an organization called Overthinkers Anonymous.
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Postby Latorik » Wed May 04, 2022 7:48 am

Why are they letting a convicted child kidnappers fate to be decided by children.

And why are the options to continue to be around said children she just tried to kidnap instead of forty years in a federal penitentiary

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The United Penguin Commonwealth
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Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Wed May 04, 2022 9:04 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:oddly specific

this is the most random hypothetical yet.


How come?


you first had a whole backstory listing every single event that led up to the actual question. then the question is also rather strange (I don't think being forced to work for a victim is a very common punishment).
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Postby Autumn Wind » Wed May 04, 2022 11:33 am

There should be an option to have her work only on the farm and not in the house/yard.

If someone had previously attempted to kidnap me/my kids I would not want them to have access to my property, especially my house with potential access to the kids.

While she may be neutralized, her cartel buddies may be looking to spring her out and finish the job while the parents are away.
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Postby Eahland » Wed May 04, 2022 11:45 am

There is no part of this hypothetical that is not ridiculous.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed May 04, 2022 11:49 am

I let the woman come in and then shoot her because I'm an American who grew up knowing how to use guns and I skip the rest of the scenario.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed May 04, 2022 11:53 am

Me have gun, me use gun on kidnapper, kidnapper is dead. scenario is kaput
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Wed May 04, 2022 1:19 pm

I would simply leave with my hypothetical sister and not get kidnaped.

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Postby Kannap » Wed May 04, 2022 3:45 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:


No

Infected Mushroom wrote:You are a kid and you have a little sister. Your parents leave you home alone to go to a business meeting in the city. In this corner of the IM Verse, this is not illegal.

While the parents are gone, a young woman (Anna Castillo) comes and tries to kidnap you and your brother and hand you over to the cartel as part of a massive kidnapping and ransom scheme. Anna has a long uninterrupted string of successful thefts, con artistry feats, and burglaries (often using her looks to her advantage). Recently, she’s upgraded to kidnapping and extortion.

You and your sister get lucky because your playing I Spy by the window and so you see her approach the house (on the way, she uses a tranq gun with a large magazine to shoot and knock out your dog).

Realizing there’s no phone, you and your sister set up defenses around the house and prepare to hold the fort.


Is this my sister or my brother? Does their gender identity change at random when a new paragraph begins? Do I have three sisters and one brother in the house with me? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Also this is sounding suspiciously like those two kids home alone while their vampire hunting father is out and the vampiress invades their home Scooby Doo style.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Round 1:
Not realizing you’ve already seen her, Anna attempts to stealthily enter the house using a ladder she brought to access a high open window. However, you’ve laced the steel ledge with canola oil. When she gets there she struggles against the surface and trips and falls spectacularly from the height and lands into lots of sharp plants.

You: “Hello. Sorry about the unfriendly welcome, but you did try to break into the house. That’s a No No.”

Raging, Anna attempts to shoot you with the tranq gun but misses. You retaliate by dropping down a basketball. She dodged the basketball but she catches a rock and trips, landing a second time into the messy plants.

Round 2:
Realizing stealth is out, Anna destroys a panel using a window breaker and enters your living room. She is welcomed by you taking photos from atop a flight of stairs.

You: “SAY CHEESE! Thank you for letting me take these photos. The police will find them very useful for identifying you.”

She aims her tranq gun and shoots so you take cover by the railings. She sprints up the stairs. Even though you’ve stacked all the steps with sharp toys as an improvised defense line, her shoes offer her complete protection as she closes the gap. But then you deploy a large bag’s worth of rolling marbles. Anna catches the marbles and falls over spectacularly, screaming and landing very painfully into a collection of toy soldiers and trains (and dropping her gun). She stands up and makes a leaping grab for you (you manage to avoid this by luck, the merest of inches). When she reaches the top of the stairs, you throw yourself facedown.

That’s when your sister, standing in a hall, activates a baseball pitching machine set to max power (you: “Bombardiers to your station!”). Anna attempts to shield herself but she gets blasted back by the relentless fire from the baseball machine. She falls down the stairs and takes more damage, this time from a collection of brightly colored plastic jacks!

As the baseballs keep firing, she realizes she can’t attack the house from this direction and retreats, picking her gun back up.

Round 3:
Anna reloads her gun to the max and enters through yet another room (after breaking another window). She sneaks upstairs and engages you and your sister across the ballroom. The two of you improvise and put on massive life jackets (which somehow act as protection against the darts from her gun).

After lots of running around, you lead Anna into a prepares position and she takes a consecutive damage from a spectacular series of gizmos. This allows you to finally take her down. You restrain her unconscious form with skipping ropes from a cupboard (using some knots your sister learned from Girl Scouts) and at some point the police do show and arrest her.


Ah, so this is just a repeat of the vampire hunter's kids home alone during a vampire home invasion.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Following her defeat and arrest, Anna Castillo is linked to all of her crimes and this threatens to generate a very lengthy prison sentence. To avoid jail, she very resentfully agrees to enter into a special deal with the government whereby she would perform “community service” and “restitution.” In addition to being forced to pay financial compensation, she must also stay at your place for three months and work as a “household servant” to the satisfaction of the owners.


How is her being a slave in my house considered restitution for all the crimes she's done? Surely the many victims of her crimes don't have any stake in whether my garden looks nicely trimmed by this lady or not.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Anna signs the deal and shows up. Meanwhile your parents are eager to profit from the free labour but decide to relegate the assignment of her tasks to you as a summer project. Anna really hates this but fully understands that your parents could say at any time that the deal is off and/or refuse to sign her forms at the end. Furthermore, two elite police officers stay with you for the three months to enforce the agreement.

There’s a three of gray areas you can customize for the work plan.

The first customizable factor is the workload over the three months. There are chores to be done throughout the house and in the yard but you could potentially come up with lots of additional time and labor-intensive projects, some beneficial to your property, others purely frivolous. Will the assignment or work be light, medium, heavy/excessively heavy?

The second customizable factor is whether or not to extend a number of employment benefits to her like a low wage, reasonable work hours, and statutory holidays. The law says you don’t have to (she’s not an employee) but you may decide to be gracious or not.

The third customizable factor is with the family farm issue. Under the agreement she’s a “household servant” but the interpretation of that is very broad (though the current law isn’t necessarily fair according to your values). Will you take a restrictive view of “household servant” and only assign her work in the house and yard, or would you take a broad view of the term and use her for farm labour as well? There is a great deal of busywork that is needed at the farm on a daily basis but you might consider this exploitation of labour.


"my values" would deem slavery to be wrong, period, rather than drawing some silly red line between two forms of slavery and saying one is good and one is bad.

Infected Mushroom wrote:In reaching a decision, you may wish to consider the following issues (though you can justify your decision in any way): 1. How do you balance mercy and humane treatment with the punitive and economic dimensions of the sentence?


You're a slaveowner for three months? What mercy or humane treatment? The literal only way you could show mercy and treat this woman humanely in this scenario is by refusing to own her as a slave.

Infected Mushroom wrote:2. With the law as currently written, where do you personally draw the line with respect to exploitation of labour?


I refuse to take part in owning her as a slave.

Infected Mushroom wrote:3. What is your objective with respect to how you manage this agreement? Is it primarily punitive or restorative? A mix of both?


This punishment is punitive in one of the worst possible ways, I manage this agreement by not being any part of it.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Here are the labour plans (with all combinations for the customizable factors). Due to limited poll options some work settings will be blended in the vote but you can clarify in the discussion:

1. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

2. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.

3. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

4. The workload over the three months will be light and/or medium/reasonable. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.

5. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

6. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house and yard but not on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.

7. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. Some employment benefits will be afforded (please specify).

8. The workload over the three months will be heavy/punitively heavy. She will work in the house, yard and on the farm. No employment benefits will be afforded.


Please justify your decision.


Lacking an option to refuse being any part of this. If the government is forcing me to be a slaveowner, then I'm finding the nearest underground of revolutionaries and rekindling the fire.

Infected Mushroom wrote:After considering all factors I would choose a variation of option 5. My justification is as follows: the labour needs to be heavy because it is supposed to be a punishment in lieu of prison time. I would extend benefits such as statutory holidays and reasonable work hours though because to deny those would be spiteful but I wouldn’t pay a wage because I think that’s too closely connected with being an employee (and she’s not). Even though past arrangements have allowed the expansive interpretation of “household servant” I personally don’t think extending it to farm labor is fair play. Doing so could cross the line into unconscionable exploitation of labour.


Is this whole hypothetical just a ploy for you to live out/roleplay your fantasy of being a slaveowner?
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed May 04, 2022 5:00 pm

Autumn Wind wrote:There should be an option to have her work only on the farm and not in the house/yard.

If someone had previously attempted to kidnap me/my kids I would not want them to have access to my property, especially my house with potential access to the kids.

While she may be neutralized, her cartel buddies may be looking to spring her out and finish the job while the parents are away.


I see your point. It wasn’t included in the poll because of limited options in the coding. However, the farm is also your private property.

As for the cartel, in the world of the hypothetical, they wouldn’t dare to take action, not while you’re under the protection of two police officers. It’s a line they’ve traditionally stayed away from. The police command a lot of respect and awe in these scenarios.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed May 04, 2022 5:01 pm

Latorik wrote:Why are they letting a convicted child kidnappers fate to be decided by children.

And why are the options to continue to be around said children she just tried to kidnap instead of forty years in a federal penitentiary


Because she was able to come to a legally enforceable agreement with the authorities. The state in the hypothetical was willing to weigh her crimes against her relatively young age.

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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed May 04, 2022 5:03 pm

I go with the Simon Legree option and whip her to death, because I'm literally the only person in this scenario who cares about my safety.
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Ambassador to the World Assembly: HE Sir John Ross "J.R." Ewing II, Bt.
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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed May 04, 2022 5:07 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:I go with the Simon Legree option and whip her to death, because I'm literally the only person in this scenario who cares about my safety.


Under the arrangement you’d be allowed to use limited non-lethal sanctions against the criminal to enforce the agreement where they are negligent or defiant (alternatively, your parents may decide to revoke the agreement). Whipping to death would be against the law. Remember, the state is watching.

In most cases the parents would decide this stuff. They’ve only left the assignment of tasks to you.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed May 04, 2022 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Two Jerseys
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Posts: 19624
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed May 04, 2022 5:18 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:I go with the Simon Legree option and whip her to death, because I'm literally the only person in this scenario who cares about my safety.


Under the arrangement you’d be allowed to use limited non-lethal sanctions against the criminal to enforce the agreement where they are negligent or defiant (alternatively, your parents may decide to revoke the agreement). Whipping to death would be against the law. Remember, the state is watching.

In most cases the parents would decide this stuff. They’ve only left the assignment of tasks to you.

A serial burglar/con artist/kidnapper gets sentenced to community service working in the house where the kids she tried to kidnap live.

Facing a murder rap isn't a deterrent here, I whip her to death.
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
"If I would like to watch goodness, sanity, God and logic being fucked I would watch Japanese porn." -Nightkill the Emperor
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Head of State: HM King Louis
Head of Government: The Rt. Hon. James O'Dell MP, Prime Minister
Ambassador to the World Assembly: HE Sir John Ross "J.R." Ewing II, Bt.
Join Excalibur Squadron. We're Commandos who fly Spitfires. Chicks dig Commandos who fly Spitfires.

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