alternative history discusion of Deseret

[Confederate Farmers]

What would the new nation-state be like in an alternative historical world where the Mormons achieved their independence during the American civil war or through other different scenarios? Would this Mormon republic have non-Mormons residing in her, and if so, what would the incentives for the 19th century Christians who really disagree with LDS doctrine have cause to defend Deseret? If legalized, Utah could be a potential ally for the confederacy against the north, and its possible slavery would be permitted, allowing more confederate settlers. The problem will be assuring a loyal population that isn't Lds.

I am interested in what would the culture be like, particularly its cultural work such as music, books,tv, and food so please be free to comment. You can talk about the 21st century for this new nation, but I'm mainly interested in the 19th century. History often portrayed what an alternative history would be so be free to mention Mormon and state history in this forum.


disclaimer l
This isn't meant to offend anyone; instead, it's a thought experiment, and it's hard to determine God's will or role in history, so either way, let's proceed.

[The Archregimancy]

what would the incentives for the 19th century Christians who really disagree with LDS doctrine have cause to defend dessert?

Who wouldn't want to defend dessert? Dessert is yummy.

[Ethel mermania]

what would the incentives for the 19th century Christians who really disagree with LDS doctrine have cause to defend dessert?

Who wouldn't want to defend dessert? Dessert is yummy.

It was Patrick Henry who said

" Give me cheesecake or give me death "

[Cetacea]

Its an interesting scenario given that the propsed Deseret State includes much of Southern California, Nevada and Colorado.
Mormons would dominate in Utah, but the rapid growth of California would cause huge tension due to anti-LDS sentiment and agitation. After the death of Brigham Young the harassment over the polygamy issue would continue and lead to the non-mormon majority (mostly in California) breaking away. Would Deseret Utah survive?
Maybe with enough of the Green Mormon Jello Salad….

[Adamede]

I'd imagine that it would end up like the Boer Republics in SA did. Utah is rich in natural but especially mineral resources, and frankly America would establish it's authority over the region sooner or later.

[The Archregimancy]

Who wouldn't want to defend dessert? Dessert is yummy.

It was Patrick Henry who said

" Give me cheesecake or give me death "

And let's not forget those immortal lines from Shakespeare:

O, pardon me, thou crumbling piece of cake,
That I am meek and gentle with these bakers!
Thou art the ruins of the noblest cake
That was ever baked in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that cut this chocolate frosting!
Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,--
Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips,
To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue--
A curse shall light upon the limbs of men;
Domestic fury and fierce baking strife
Shall cumber all the shops of kitchen cooks;
Flour and water shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And this cake's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by its side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With hundreds and thousands, awaiting their next sprinkling.

[New Zoigai]

conquered or asking to become a state after 40 years

[Dogmeat]

After the Civil War, they sent Sherman out West.

So... good luck.

[Page]

I would imagine that Deseret would have desegregated in the 80's or 90's, maybe allowed interracial marriage around 2003, and that women would have fewer rights than in any other western country but still a lot more rights than in an Islamic theocracy.

Caffeine would probably be illegal or stupidly regulated because it actually is stupidly regulated in present day real world Utah.

It wouldn't be a dystopian hellscape but it would be an extremely un-fun place to live.

[Ethel mermania]

It was Patrick Henry who said

" Give me cheesecake or give me death "

And let's not forget those immortal lines from Shakespeare:

O, pardon me, thou crumbling piece of cake,
That I am meek and gentle with these bakers!
Thou art the ruins of the noblest cake
That was ever baked in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that cut this chocolate frosting!
Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,--
Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips,
To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue--
A curse shall light upon the limbs of men;
Domestic fury and fierce baking strife
Shall cumber all the shops of kitchen cooks;
Flour and water shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And this cake's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by its side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With hundreds and thousands, awaiting their next sprinkling.

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears.
I have come to make a Caesar, not to sauce bernasrse.
The lettuce that men do lives after them;
The croutons are oft interrèd with their bones.
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus Hath told you Caesar was flavorfull.
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,

And grievously hath Caesar answered it.
Here, under leaves of lettuce and croutons.
(For croutons are an ignoble bread
So are they all, all ignoble breads),

....

[Confederate Farmers]

Stop the desert sarcasm, please! Or the mods will come down YOu may make a desert joke if you also contribute seriously to this moron independent state in this alternative history. The Mormons had they sided with the confederacy and struck with the north was losing on all fronts than they mabey could get a slice of Nevada and most of Idaho during the war.

The Mormons were friendlier to the native American Indians so they could use the Indians to their advantage and would probably be helpful to the Indians. They would probably be recognized in Europe and would send more missionaries and incentives for investment in their nation. They are dynamic people so accomplishments will be made. Mormons generally are pro-immigrant

They could allow pacifist groups incentives to settle, such as Amish, watchtower, and anyone who couldn't immigrate to the major American nations because of immigration restrictions. Jews could be welcomed if a compromise was reached that Jesus and God were separate according to their theology. I think Muslims at one point would be encouraged to come as they can be polamous.

[Adamede]

After the Civil War, they sent Sherman out West.

So... good luck.

I’d suggest he salt the land around Salt Lake City when he sacks the city but there’s already Salt Lake right there.

[Adamede]

I would imagine that Deseret would have desegregated in the 80's or 90's, maybe allowed interracial marriage around 2003, and that women would have fewer rights than in any other western country but still a lot more rights than in an Islamic theocracy.

Caffeine would probably be illegal or stupidly regulated because it actually is stupidly regulated in present day real world Utah.

It wouldn't be a dystopian hellscape but it would be an extremely un-fun place to live.

Deseret wouldn’t make it out of the 19th century as an independent nation let alone make it to the 21st.

[Floofybit]

I think it wouldn't be that bad. I think they would allow woman's rights and mixed raced couples. They would be very accepting and encouraging of people's choices. It would likely be a safehaven from the outside world trying to tear the religion apart. I think it might be better than America tbh, a more peaceful state, and even though it would be likely that they ban recreational drugs, and harmful substances of that sort, including strong drinks like alcohol, I'm sure they'd allow safe immigration and emigration for people who need time away from restrictions. They would probably have crusades (just kidding). They would go on missions to America and the outer countries to teach them their religion but would force anything on others. There would be a crap ton of churches and temples and more stores would be closed on Sundays, but if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints got their own state, I think it wouldn't be half bad

(They would become a state prob but still have restrictions on strong drinks and substances and closing stores or Sundays)

[Confederate Farmers]

I think it wouldn't be that bad. I think they would allow woman's rights and mixed raced couples. They would be very accepting and encouraging of people's choices. It would likely be a safehaven from the outside world trying to tear the religion apart. I think it might be better than America tbh, a more peaceful state, and even though it would be likely that they ban recreational drugs, and harmful substances of that sort, including strong drinks like alcohol, I'm sure they'd allow safe immigration and emigration for people who need time away from restrictions. They would probably have crusades (just kidding). They would go on missions to America and the outer countries to teach them their religion but would force anything on others. There would be a crap ton of churches and temples and more stores would be closed on Sundays, but if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints got their own state, I think it wouldn't be half bad

(They would become a state prob but still have restrictions on strong drinks and substances and closing stores on Sundays)

Well yes. The 21st-century circumstances would be different than the 19th-century issues. American culture was friendlier to those socially conservative values. While neither side was racially enlightened of course this isn't because of one religion but rather the culture. I do appreciate your contributions, but I'm mainly curious about how the motives would work for people who don't support Mormonism. Most people in America back then went to church and there were more people who were spiritual Christians compared to now.

The problem with a Mormon state is the culture is solely based on a single religion that is different then most Judeo-Christian sects. From a northern perspective should an American settler decide to be loyal to a treasonous state that goes against your religion? Most Americans didn't like the Mormon faith and they were an unusual group for the time period. From a Confederate perspective, I don't see why I should be loyal to this Mormon nation-state and there would have to be incentives for me to fight for this state. I would even see reluctance for the confederates to support the Mormons but would note that is long if it hurt the north. I

I truly wish a mormon or someone who lives in a mormon margority area could step in and contribute

I wonder what the nations desert and qusine be like along with there non relgous cultrue.

[Imperial States of Duotona]

I mean, if it happened in my nation's universe, Duotona would probably be pretty happy about that. Another bee nation means they aren't weird for the whole bee thing.

[The Archregimancy]

Stop the desert sarcasm, please! Or the mods will come down

It's conceivably possible that the mods already know.

But I think we've had our fun; and there's nothing wrong with the thread topic - so I'll let you continue without further attempts to promote the ecumenical defence of dessert.

[Frisemark]

I don’t want to imagine an independent Mormon nation-state beholden to nobody but themselves. That just sounds like a speedrun challenge of “Who can get in the headlines for denying groups of people civil rights the fastest”

[Confederate Farmers]

I don’t want to imagine an independent Mormon nation-state beholden to nobody but themselves. That just sounds like a speedrun challenge of “Who can get in the headlines for denying groups of people civil rights the fastest”

I don't see the Mormon government denying liberties of a group that probably wouldn't be in UTuha in the first place. It would be true that there might be a different group of people, Mormons, and non-Mormons, known as gentiles. SO during the civil war, there were non-Mormons who had already settled in the region, but if they promised their neutrality, then I don't think by the Mormons would call them for their oppression. In the old testament, foreigners were to be loved and treated with equality. In a nation that needs population growth other than from high birth rates, it would not make sense for outsiders' oppression of different religions provided they obey the laws of the state.

I think it was in the 1870s it became clear that utuha wasn't going to be a theocratic Mormon state and this was because of non-Mormons. However people period and not going to wish to live in a different country that isn't a part of the USA or CSA. Plus the liberal party whose ideals where that of separation of church and state often had anti-Mormonism as the party's ideals. Now a Mormon nation in its own right discourages settlers do to Mormonism, but a nation has better deterrence who will be loyal. There probably would be something similar to the liberal party except not as strong and their tenants would still support loyalty and freedom to worship just as what the Mormons sought in the USA.


In a relgions that allows other faiths to go to heaven then I see they shouldn't disallow other relgions. However I do think the nations army would be faith based. Plus some Christians could say in public school should allow scripture that allows most or some faiths in the area to agree upon.

There probably would be asiian worker for the nation railroads

[New Zoigai]

Stop the desert sarcasm, please! Or the mods will come down YOu may make a desert joke if you also contribute seriously to this moron independent state in this alternative history. The Mormons had they sided with the confederacy and struck with the north was losing on all fronts than they mabey could get a slice of Nevada and most of Idaho during the war.

The Mormons were friendlier to the native American Indians so they could use the Indians to their advantage and would probably be helpful to the Indians. They would probably be recognized in Europe and would send more missionaries and incentives for investment in their nation. They are dynamic people so accomplishments will be made. Mormons generally are pro-immigrant

They could allow pacifist groups incentives to settle, such as Amish, watchtower, and anyone who couldn't immigrate to the major American nations because of immigration restrictions. Jews could be welcomed if a compromise was reached that Jesus and God were separate according to their theology. I think Muslims at one point would be encouraged to come as they can be polamous.

The Morman State at best would last 100 years before collapsing or being annexed

[Arpasia]

I heard that Alternatehistoryhub calls Deseret as "an enlarged Utah".

[Eahland]

I don’t want to imagine an independent Mormon nation-state beholden to nobody but themselves. That just sounds like a speedrun challenge of “Who can get in the headlines for denying groups of people civil rights the fastest”

I don't see the Mormon government denying liberties of a group that probably wouldn't be in UTuha in the first place.

[...] its possible slavery would be permitted, allowing more confederate settlers.

[Chan Island]

I imagine that it wouldn’t be that unusual or irrational a nation until the USA arrives and conquers it with ease. Then it’s made into a state, possibly split into multiple states.

End of story. The only difference is a few small battles take place.

[Ethel mermania]

I imagine that it wouldn’t be that unusual or irrational a nation until the USA arrives and conquers it with ease. Then it’s made into a state, possibly split into multiple states.

End of story. The only difference is a few small battles take place.

As Dogmeat wrote, William tecumseh sherman went west. It wouldn't go well for the mormons.

[Major-Tom]

It wouldn't have made it very far time-wise. Anti-Mormon sentiment was extremely high in both the 19th and part of the 20th century, sooner or later the US would've invaded without much backlash. It's equally possible that the extremely arid, hardly arable land of Utah and Northern Arizona would have posed enough of a challenge to an Independent Deseret that it would've collapsed.

Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven is an excellent read about the History of Fundamentalist LDS sects, and it dives into the concept and history of Deseret for several chapters. Worth a read; it explains that even Deseret's top proponents knew it was a pipedream at its' core.

I mean, if it happened in my nation's universe, Duotona would probably be pretty happy about that. Another bee nation means they aren't weird for the whole bee thing.

The last time I was in Utah, I got pulled over by a state trooper. Both his car and his badge were adorned with a rather large; garish beehive insignia. It was strange.