Turkey attacks PKK terrorists in northern Iraq.

[Archinstinct]

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... q-84139888

ANKARA, Turkey -- Turkey has launched a new ground and air cross-border offensive against Kurdish militants in northern Iraq, that has left at least 19 suspected Kurdish rebels dead and has wounded at least four Turkish soldiers, Turkey’s defense minister said Monday.

Turkish jets and artillery struck suspected targets of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, and commando troops — supported by helicopters and drones — then crossed into the region by land or were airlifted by helicopters, Defense Minister Hulusi Akar said in a video posted on the ministry’s website.

Akar said the jets successfully struck shelters, bunkers, caves, tunnels, ammunition depots and headquarters belonging to the PKK. The group maintains bases in northern Iraq and has used the territory for attacks on Turkey.

At least 19 militants were killed while four Turkish troops were wounded during the offensive, the ministry said. There was no immediate comment from the Kurdish militant group on the incursion and the defense ministry statement couldn't be verified independently.

Turkey has conducted numerous cross-border aerial and ground operations against the PKK over the past decades. The latest offensive, named Operation Claw Lock, was centered in northern Iraq’s Metina, Zap and Avashin-Basyan regions.

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The Defense Ministry said the new offensive was launched after it was determined that the militants were regrouping and preparing for a “large-scale attack.”

The offensive was carried out in coordination with Turkey’s “friends and allies,” the ministry added, but didn't elaborate. Last week, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan met with Masrour Barzani, the prime minister of Iraq’s autonomous Kurdish region, which controls the areas that were attacked.

The Turkish minister said the incursion was targeting “terrorists” and that “maximum sensitivity” was being shown to avoid damage to civilians and cultural and religious structures.

Tens of thousands of people have been killed since the PKK, which is designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. and the European Union, began an insurgency in Turkey’s majority Kurdish southeast region in 1984.

So the conflict between Turkey and the PKK insurgency drags on. Discuss the ongoing war.

[Sordhau]

I wish the Kurds luck in their fight for freedom against the imperialists in Ankara.

[Free Hyperborea 2]

The world would be a much better place if every ethnic group had a homeland but unfortunately in places like the Middle East it just seems impossible because of all the historic, territorial disputes in that part of the world.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

I wish the Kurds luck in their fight for freedom against the imperialists in Ankara.

N-No? At least not this one. The PKK is a terrorist group. They kill civilians, they bomb Tourist areas, they kidnap.* From what I know, they aren't good.
I support freedom for Kurdistan, but, like, from what I've seen, IDK about these ones.

*From limited research. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Sordhau]

I wish the Kurds luck in their fight for freedom against the imperialists in Ankara.

N-No? At least not this one. The PKK is a terrorist group. They kill civilians, they bomb Tourist areas, they kidnap.* From what I know, they aren't good.
I support freedom for Kurdistan, but, like, from what I've seen, IDK about these ones.

*From limited research. Correct me if i'm wrong.

If you sit around waiting for freedom fighters with a clean conscience, unshakeable morals, and a spotless track record you'll be waiting till the heat death of the universe.

War is not pleasant, and no one is ever clean. Therefor it stands to reason that the just side is the one with the noblest cause. Independence, by virtue of self-determination, is a noble cause.

[Port Caverton]

I wish the Kurds luck in their fight for freedom against the imperialists in Ankara.

Which is why we need to drone strike Erdogan

[Ereria]

N-No? At least not this one. The PKK is a terrorist group. They kill civilians, they bomb Tourist areas, they kidnap.* From what I know, they aren't good.
I support freedom for Kurdistan, but, like, from what I've seen, IDK about these ones.

*From limited research. Correct me if i'm wrong.

If you sit around waiting for freedom fighters with a clean conscience, unshakeable morals, and a spotless track record you'll be waiting till the heat death of the universe.

War is not pleasant, and no one is ever clean. Therefor it stands to reason that the just side is the one with the noblest cause. Independence, by virtue of self-determination, is a noble cause.

They will get wiped out

[Chan Island]

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

[New haven america]

Can Turkey stop being genocidal against all its neighbors for 5 minutes? K thanks.

Especially since most Turks aren't actually Turkish, they're Anatolian Greeks.

[New haven america]

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

No.

France and England designed it to be this way.

[The Republic of Western Sol]

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

No.

France and England designed it to be this way.

And it’s beautiful watching the world burn, thanks for crediting us

Sincerely, a Brit

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

It’s not always the ME killing itself, sometimes the US gets in on the fun as well

[Arisyan]

For the last goddamn time, the PKK aren't terrorists. Kurds have been subject to a much larger genocide by the Turkish government and their actions are usually justifiable. If your whole village gets bombed to smithereens, you have the right to retaliate. Plus, they have pretty much stopped targeting civilians since the ideological shift in the party in the mid 2000s.

As Sordhau said, I wish them all the best in their war for liberation.

[Chan Island]

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

No.

France and England designed it to be this way.

Over 100 years ago. You’d think people would get over it at some point. But no, the horrors and unnecessary death continues unabated.

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

It’s not always the ME killing itself, sometimes the US gets in on the fun as well

And were completely wrong in doing so.

This time the US isn’t the one doing this round of massacres though.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

No.

France and England designed it to be this way.

Over 100 years ago. You’d think people would get over it at some point. But no, the horrors and unnecessary death continues unabated.

It’s not always the ME killing itself, sometimes the US gets in on the fun as well

And were completely wrong in doing so.

This time the US isn’t the one doing this round of massacres though.

Very true. The PKK should stop killing innocent people, and Turkey should stop bombing other countries without permission. Iraq has had enough bombs for a lifetime.

[El Lazaro]

N-No? At least not this one. The PKK is a terrorist group. They kill civilians, they bomb Tourist areas, they kidnap.* From what I know, they aren't good.
I support freedom for Kurdistan, but, like, from what I've seen, IDK about these ones.

*From limited research. Correct me if i'm wrong.

If you sit around waiting for freedom fighters with a clean conscience, unshakeable morals, and a spotless track record you'll be waiting till the heat death of the universe.

War is not pleasant, and no one is ever clean. Therefor it stands to reason that the just side is the one with the noblest cause. Independence, by virtue of self-determination, is a noble cause.

Everything you just said also applies to ISIS. Critical support for the late Osama bin Laden?

[Arisyan]

If you sit around waiting for freedom fighters with a clean conscience, unshakeable morals, and a spotless track record you'll be waiting till the heat death of the universe.

War is not pleasant, and no one is ever clean. Therefor it stands to reason that the just side is the one with the noblest cause. Independence, by virtue of self-determination, is a noble cause.

Everything you just said also applies to ISIS. Critical support for the late Osama bin Laden?

No, no it doesn't. There are two very stark contrasts between the PKK and ISIS.

If ISIS were in power, they would have genocided all the none Muslims and all the Islamic ethnic groups they dislike (they massacred the Yazidis in Iraq, remember?). Therefore, they are not fighting for "freedom" or "self-determination", but rather an Islamic theocracy.

If the PKK were in power, there would self-determination for all oppressed ethnic groups in Kurdistan, along with the former oppressor ethnic groups as well. They don't believe in nationalism, but rather national liberation.

[Risottia]

I wish that at least one tenth of the support the world is giving to Ukraine in their fight against the Russian invasion were given also to the Kurds in their fight against the Turkish invasion.

[Utquiagvik]

Goddamn it. Can the Middle East stop killing itself every 5 minutes?

It’s not always the ME killing itself, sometimes the US gets in on the fun as well

My sister was briefly in the middle east recently due to a flight switch going to Australia. I'm glad she got out of there quickly.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Everything you just said also applies to ISIS. Critical support for the late Osama bin Laden?

No, no it doesn't. There are two very stark contrasts between the PKK and ISIS.

If ISIS were in power, they would have genocided all the none Muslims and all the Islamic ethnic groups they dislike (they massacred the Yazidis in Iraq, remember?). Therefore, they are not fighting for "freedom" or "self-determination", but rather an Islamic theocracy.

If the PKK were in power, there would self-determination for all oppressed ethnic groups in Kurdistan, along with the former oppressor ethnic groups as well. They don't believe in nationalism, but rather national liberation.

It doesn’t justify killing innocent people

[Ereria]

For the last goddamn time, the PKK aren't terrorists. Kurds have been subject to a much larger genocide by the Turkish government and their actions are usually justifiable. If your whole village gets bombed to smithereens, you have the right to retaliate. Plus, they have pretty much stopped targeting civilians since the ideological shift in the party in the mid 2000s.

As Sordhau said, I wish them all the best in their war for liberation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comment ... &context=3

Here is one of PKK leaders telling clearly they will target civilian population for revenge

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... ls-in-iraq

The local kurdish government known as ROJAVA supports the operation, and is cutting off escape routes of the PKK.

Now tell me, are the PKK just innocent freedom fighters when even the kurdish government in Iraq wants to get rid of them? They are known to still kidnap children, kill teachers, kill engineers, collecting protection money from local kurdish people and smuggling drugs. These terrorists have no difference between them and a cartell/mafia.

[El Lazaro]

Everything you just said also applies to ISIS. Critical support for the late Osama bin Laden?

No, no it doesn't. There are two very stark contrasts between the PKK and ISIS.

If ISIS were in power, they would have genocided all the none Muslims and all the Islamic ethnic groups they dislike (they massacred the Yazidis in Iraq, remember?). Therefore, they are not fighting for "freedom" or "self-determination", but rather an Islamic theocracy.

If the PKK were in power, there would self-determination for all oppressed ethnic groups in Kurdistan, along with the former oppressor ethnic groups as well. They don't believe in nationalism, but rather national liberation.

Which is not at all the argument that Sordhau is making. Islamic State terrorists were freedom fighters resisting US imperialism and pushing for self-determination of Muslim areas. If we are to believe that such a cause justifies clearly immoral actions, then ISIS is correct and must also be supported.

[Barlyy]

About time.

[Thermodolia]

I wish the Kurds luck in their fight for freedom against the imperialists in Ankara.

Which is why we need to drone strike Erdogan

That would be dumb

[Sordhau]

If you sit around waiting for freedom fighters with a clean conscience, unshakeable morals, and a spotless track record you'll be waiting till the heat death of the universe.

War is not pleasant, and no one is ever clean. Therefor it stands to reason that the just side is the one with the noblest cause. Independence, by virtue of self-determination, is a noble cause.

They will get wiped out

Imagine celebrating genocide. Weird flex but okay.

If you sit around waiting for freedom fighters with a clean conscience, unshakeable morals, and a spotless track record you'll be waiting till the heat death of the universe.

War is not pleasant, and no one is ever clean. Therefor it stands to reason that the just side is the one with the noblest cause. Independence, by virtue of self-determination, is a noble cause.

Everything you just said also applies to ISIS. Critical support for the late Osama bin Laden?

1. Bin Laden was Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.

2. No it doesn't.

ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra, Boko Haram, the Taliban, etc. are not freedom fighters and it's intellectually dishonest to argue that they are. They do not fight for the self-determination or independence of any group of people. They fight to install reactionary theocracies in existent countries and in cases like ISIS believe in conquering other countries to establish an imperialist Caliphate. In many cases they are not even natives to the regions they're terrorizing. Ergo the "one's man terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument doesn't fly here, because Jihadists don't fight for anyone's freedom - quite the opposite. The regimes they impose are often repressive, tyrannical, genocidal, and in some cases even support the slave trade. That they just happen to be fighting imperial powers like the USA means nothing; one can be an anti-imperialist and still be part of an immoral cause.

Compare that to the PKK, YPG, Rojava, etc. who are fighting explicitly for the creation of a Kurdish state. This is in and of itself a far nobler goal as the Kurdish people not only have a right to self-determination but have faced continuous discrimination at the hands of the Iraqi, Syrian, Turkish, and Iranian governments and so have long since earned the right to their own country by virtue of this oppression. This is not a goal they share with Jihadists who do not seek the liberation of any nation or ethnicity but in fact want the obliteration of whole cultures and religions that do not conform to their narrow, fundamentalist worldview.

Apples to oranges.

For the last goddamn time, the PKK aren't terrorists. Kurds have been subject to a much larger genocide by the Turkish government and their actions are usually justifiable. If your whole village gets bombed to smithereens, you have the right to retaliate. Plus, they have pretty much stopped targeting civilians since the ideological shift in the party in the mid 2000s.

As Sordhau said, I wish them all the best in their war for liberation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comment ... &context=3

Here is one of PKK leaders telling clearly they will target civilian population for revenge

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... ls-in-iraq

The local kurdish government known as ROJAVA supports the operation, and is cutting off escape routes of the PKK.

Now tell me, are the PKK just innocent freedom fighters when even the kurdish government in Iraq wants to get rid of them? They are known to still kidnap children, kill teachers, kill engineers, collecting protection money from local kurdish people and smuggling drugs. These terrorists have no difference between them and a cartell/mafia.

And where is your moral outrage when the Turks commit similar atrocities against a minority group (Kurds) who have no other means to fight back other than through prolonged campaigns of terrorism?

What do you expect them to do, protest? Sit-ins? Demonstrations? They'll be beaten, gassed, and shot and their plights will be ignored. The Turkish Republic has been "Turkifying" minority groups since it's founding. Most of eastern Turkey was ethnically Armenian before they were forced to abandon their language, culture, and even their religion in order to embrace a "Turkish" identity against their will. IIRC 1 in 3 Turks has an Armenian ancestor. This is the fate of the Kurds if they don't fight, and they know this.

Does this justify atrocities? No, but it gives credence to their cause as one for survival. Atrocities come with fighting. War isn't a video game where you can beat the bad guys without committing morally questionable actions. No one who actually goes to war is that morally upstanding. War is evil, and atrocity comes with the territory. You can either accept that the Kurds must fight for their survival--which means they will commit atrocities--or you can believe they should lay down their arms and seek peaceful liberation, ensuring they will be slaughtered and forgotten. There is no middle ground. There is no war without suffering, and there is no peace without annihilation. To believe otherwise is pure naivety.

No, no it doesn't. There are two very stark contrasts between the PKK and ISIS.

If ISIS were in power, they would have genocided all the none Muslims and all the Islamic ethnic groups they dislike (they massacred the Yazidis in Iraq, remember?). Therefore, they are not fighting for "freedom" or "self-determination", but rather an Islamic theocracy.

If the PKK were in power, there would self-determination for all oppressed ethnic groups in Kurdistan, along with the former oppressor ethnic groups as well. They don't believe in nationalism, but rather national liberation.

Which is not at all the argument that Sordhau is making. Islamic State terrorists were freedom fighters resisting US imperialism and pushing for self-determination of Muslim areas. If we are to believe that such a cause justifies clearly immoral actions, then ISIS is correct and must also be supported.

1. Fighting US imperialism doesn't make you a freedom fighter, it makes you an anti-imperialist. Freedom fighters--by definition--fight for someone's freedom. ISIS did not fight for anyone's freedom, they fought for power.

2. ISIS can't fight for the self-determination of Muslim areas because they're already ruled by Muslims.

3. ISIS was a collection of foreign fighters who have and still are invading sovereign countries in order to take territory from them to build their own Caliphate. This is not liberation or self-determination, it's imperialism. There is no functional difference between ISIS and the U.S. They are both imperialists who invade foreign lands and oppress the population. Quit the mental gymnastics while you're ahead.

Which is why we need to drone strike Erdogan

That would be dumb

I think you mean "based".