Swedish Riots

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

Would I support you? Not a chance.

Would I support your right to do so (as long as it was your Bible)? One hundred percent.

Would I threaten you with death or start a riot? Again, not a chance.

Some of us can react to things we disagree with by peaceful dissent, not violence.

that question wasn't directed at you, it's directed to people who think we should kick all the muslims out.

[Haganham]

Would I support you? Not a chance.

Would I support your right to do so (as long as it was your Bible)? One hundred percent.

Would I threaten you with death or start a riot? Again, not a chance.

Some of us can react to things we disagree with by peaceful dissent, not violence.

that question wasn't directed at you, it's directed to people who think we should kick all the muslims out.

same answer

[Ostroeuropa]

Aye. And I don't hate Muslims.

Just when they practice Islam.

This feels like a distinction without a substantive difference. There are millions of Muslims who observe their faith just fine without committing abominable crimes. I don't see any harm in upholding halal diets, making hajj, or even donning the hijab, supposing we avoid serious social dysfunctions while such observances of the hadiths and sharia occur.

So we're agreed it's all kosher then and we can deport people for wearing a veil or kneeling towards mecca to pray. Another banger of an argument from the religious they don't actually believe in and certainly don't want applied evenly, lest it result in their destruction, the implicit special pleading and demand for special treatment positively dripping from the utterance.

Ah, hegemony. We never escape it. It's not enough to be tolerant and to go about our lives quietly. We must learn to accept the LGBT+ community. We must learn not to draw Mohammed. We must learn this or that to appease some ideologue.

That's the point Fahran. I'm mocking the "We don't hate gays, just gay sex" routine they argued with;

And in Islam, being LGBTQ isn’t haram, but committing LGBTQ acts is haram. So, yes.

and noting that while religious fundamentalists think it's nice and normal and reasonable to ban gay sex and argue this isn't anti-LGBT, this constitutes a form of arrogant special pleading that they would never tolerate if the logic were used against them.

I'm pointing out they don't actually believe in the things they say to justify their behavior, and if they do, they are extremely silly and providing us the means for their total eradication as a group. What are they hoping?

"Oh hey! You convinced us. Hate the sin and not the sinner is a totally normal way to think. Practicing Islam is now a death sentence. We don't hate muslims though, where did you get that idea?".

[Hittisha]

I’m not sure of what extent this is put into practice already, but I think that a fair way to avert the problem of potentially inviting Islamic fundamentalism into Western countries without having to go as far as banning entire religious groups or nationalities would’ve been to prioritize assisting in the immigration process for women, children, and members of groups that fall under state-sanctioned persecution, like apostates or homosexuals for example. It would be much more feasible for them to assimilate naturally as anyone might expect, given that a secular worldview would be more accommodating to them in many respects. If we look at your typical adult muslim men, on the other hand, insofar as they are straight and don't have any fatwa on their heads, it would make more sense to expect them to stay behind, since they are usually the only ones who hold any influence in their homeland. Being in another country that doesn't put them on the same pedestal would predictably breed resentment, to the point where there's a likelihood of them using their beliefs as a reason for choosing competition over integration.

Unfortunately, it's no wonder you can't expect to reach a consensus on what policies count as fair let alone practical with the way that critics of Islam with the aim of defending an open society get put in the same camp as those who see Islamic theocracies as examples of how their own country should be, but just don’t want the ethnic and religious competition coming from them.

[Adamede]

I’m not sure of what extent this is put into practice already, but I think that a fair way to avert the problem of potentially inviting Islamic fundamentalism into Western countries without having to go as far as banning entire religious groups or nationalities would’ve been to prioritize assisting in the immigration process for women, children, and members of groups that fall under state-sanctioned persecution, like apostates or homosexuals for example. It would be much more feasible for them to assimilate naturally as anyone might expect, given that a secular worldview would be more accommodating to them in many respects. If we look at your typical adult muslim men, on the other hand, insofar as they are straight and don't have any fatwa on their heads, it would make more sense to expect them to stay behind, since they are usually the only ones who hold any influence in their homeland. Being in another country that doesn't put them on the same pedestal would predictably breed resentment, to the point where there's a likelihood of them using their beliefs as a reason for choosing competition over integration.

Unfortunately, it's no wonder you can't expect to reach a consensus on what policies count as fair let alone practical with the way that critics of Islam with the aim of defending an open society get put in the same camp as those who see Islamic theocracies as examples of how their own country should be, but just don’t want the ethnic and religious competition coming from them.

A lot of the home grown Islamic terrorism and extremism in the West comes from the Muslim children that grow up here.

[Perikuresu]

A lot of the home grown Islamic terrorism and extremism in the West comes from the Muslim children that grow up here.

Then it should be a matter of mental health, children that grow up in a Western environment are more likely to hold western values and to identify more with the country they live in. They can't be easily radicalised unless they're easily susceptible to it, which means that the person is highly insecure, or that those that a close to them (i.e., parents, friends, online friends, etc.) encouraged it, and I doubt most muslim refugees in the west actually want to undermine the society they live in because well, they didn't escape a warzone just to make another one (unless they were sent there but that it's own can of worms)

[Elwher]

Would I support you? Not a chance.

Would I support your right to do so (as long as it was your Bible)? One hundred percent.

Would I threaten you with death or start a riot? Again, not a chance.

Some of us can react to things we disagree with by peaceful dissent, not violence.

that question wasn't directed at you, it's directed to people who think we should kick all the muslims out.

Well, I think we should kick out or jail anyone, no matter their faith or lack of it, who reacts to an insult with violence.

[Adamede]

A lot of the home grown Islamic terrorism and extremism in the West comes from the Muslim children that grow up here.

Then it should be a matter of mental health, children that grow up in a Western environment are more likely to hold western values and to identify more with the country they live in. They can't be easily radicalised unless they're easily susceptible to it, which means that the person is highly insecure, or that those that a close to them (i.e., parents, friends, online friends, etc.) encouraged it, and I doubt most muslim refugees in the west actually want to undermine the society they live in because well, they didn't escape a warzone just to make another one (unless they were sent there but that it's own can of worms)

Yah, I'm just pointing out that keeping middle eastern men from immigrating to the West isn't a solution.
And from what I've read its because a lot of Muslim youths feel alienated in Western societies and as such turn to a fundamentalist version of their religion and get radicalized online.

[The Rich Port]

As someone who has friends from all over the world who have moved to the USA and are just trying to live their lives, I don't buy this narrative of raping foreigners who refuse to "integrate" into such amazing countries. There's something else going on in Europe that has nothing to do with refugees being automatic criminals.

I agree with TRP, most of the time people who immigrate or seek refuge in another country just want a better life than they had in their home country, they're not gonna refuse to assimilate or dare to even harm the locals because well, that's basically self-sabotage innit.

Another point I want to bring up is that I believe that most radicalisations (whether in an ideological or religious nature) are linked to standards of living and a person's mental state, bring both these factors to a really shit level and they're more susceptible to falling for it. I think the problem is just the low standards of living for the Global South (e.g., Mozambique has an "ISIS" rebellion going on in it's resource-rich north and it's one of the poorest provinces/regions in the country) and poor mental health (there was this Aussie teen called Jake Billardi, young white guy, no criminal records, had a rough upbringing with an abusive and absent parent and confided with his online friends (who were islamic terrorists), reported some paranoia claiming that his family were "plotting to kill him" and that "hidden cameras" were in his room, eventually converted to Islam, flew to Iraq and died in a suicide van attack, y'all might need to correct me on some info)

Indeed... Which the standard of living would probably include discrimination that is just not visible to us because nobody has done investigations into it, or just the fact that refugees are locked in economic limbo and crime is their only economic option as well.

And that's of course ignoring the over-reporting of sexual assaults in Scandinavia in general due to clerical practices.

I have not seen any research or interviews on what it's like to be a European refugee and how the negative attitudes towards them affect them. Zip. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The only study I found was that over-reporting sexual assault thing in Sweden I think and I can't find it again.

[The Snazzylands]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

Most white Christians would roll their eyes and ignore you, or try to argue with you. What they wouldn't do is gather an angry mob to burn your house to the ground and try to kill you.

Yes the anti-Muslim rallies are intentionally provocative, but lashing out with violence when your feelings get hurt just reinforces their narrative. It's thoughtless, destructive, and it tells everyone there are certain groups of people who can't handle Western values like free expression.

[The Alma Mater]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

Most white Christians would roll their eyes and ignore you, or try to argue with you. What they wouldn't do is gather an angry mob to burn your house to the ground and try to kill you.

Actually, if they are in power they would pass laws that reduce you to a second class citizen.
Arguably a straight up punching by a muslim is far less insidious.

[New haven america]

I mean, I think both sides are shit are.

On one hand, you have a right-wing provocateur using this in order to gain further fuel for the regrowth of fascism in Europe, which has already taken hold in places like Russia and The UK.

On the other hand, most of the Muslims causing these riots currently do come from countries that practices strict Sharia Law, in which torturing and murdering individuals and minority groups for not following Islam or being LGBT or etc... is commonplace and socially acceptable in a lot of areas, and who happen to be their own brand of xenophobic.

Shit situation all around really.

[Fahran]

A lot of the home grown Islamic terrorism and extremism in the West comes from the Muslim children that grow up here.

The children of immigrants are more likely to succumb to religious extremism than their parents in many cases. It's likely an attempt to compensate for the loss of identity they experience in liberal societies. It creates a serious problem with allowing farther immigration if it's not resolved though. Between France and Belgium, as many as 2,000 young men and women joined ISIL. European Muslims actually seem to have been overrepresented among their ranks in general. Belgian and Swedish Muslim communities, in particular, provided a per capita figure that far exceeds that of Pakistan, India, or Indonesia.

They find that poor economic conditions do not drive participation in ISIS. Rather, the number of ISIS fighters from a given country is positively correlated with that country's per capita gross domestic product and its place on the Human Development Index. Many foreign fighters originate from countries with high levels of economic development, low income inequality, and highly developed political institutions.

Other factors that explain the number of ISIS foreign fighters are the size of a country's Muslim population and its homogeneity. A country's political characteristics are not correlated with the number of ISIS fighters it produces. Foreign recruits into terror organizations come largely from prosperous, ethnically and linguistically homogeneous countries.

Building on previous research that suggests that recruitment is driven by religious and political ideology, the researchers find that the more homogeneous the host country is, the more difficulties Muslim immigrants experience in their process of assimilation. This social isolation seems to induce radicalization, increasing the supply of potential recruits.

Although the researchers are unable to determine precisely why people join ISIS, their results suggest this difficulty of assimilation into homogeneous Western countries and ISIS's appeal to impressionable youth through its sophisticated propaganda machine and social media are major contributors.

All of these people should have been executed, imprisoned in perpetuity, or had their citizenship revoked by the way. But I'm mostly sharing this because it's indicative of a serious problem within the Muslim communities of some western countries that doesn't seem to be present to the same degree else-where. And it's not linked to poverty from we can tell either, but does seem linked to the ability to form insulated enclaves within homogenous societies. In short, there's not much mixing going on in Sweden or Belgium despite serious efforts on the part of governments at times. Sweden, in particular, has really tried to encourage cultural exchanges.

[Harjanika]

If racists could just get educated none of this would happen...

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

If racists could just get educated none of this would happen...

You propose that we solve rl trolling by... educating the trolls? You want us to sit Herr Paludan down to a lecture on why he is a shitbag?
Actually I can get behind that.

[Harjanika]

If racists could just get educated none of this would happen...

You propose that we solve rl trolling by... educating the trolls? You want us to sit Herr Paludan down to a lecture on why he is a shitbag?
Actually I can get behind that.

Well, at least have more education in schools about refugees and racial justice/harmony as well as religious practices.

[Shilshka]

You propose that we solve rl trolling by... educating the trolls? You want us to sit Herr Paludan down to a lecture on why he is a shitbag?
Actually I can get behind that.

Well, at least have more education in schools about refugees and racial justice/harmony as well as religious practices.

I don’t think that’s going to stop racism.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

You propose that we solve rl trolling by... educating the trolls? You want us to sit Herr Paludan down to a lecture on why he is a shitbag?
Actually I can get behind that.

Well, at least have more education in schools about refugees and racial justice/harmony as well as religious practices.

This wouldn't work because that isn't the issue.
The issue... as always... is poverty. Poverty, lack of opportunity, and societal exclusion makes people turn almost inevitably to crime, extremism and criminal gangs, latter of which are the guys responsible for rioting last week. Solving poverty would probs involve introducing to Sweden some system where taxes are skyhigh to fund a well-functioning social assistance system that helps people instead of excluding the lot. This is something nobody politically important enough is interested in. Because they are all drunk on Thatcherism.

[Harjanika]

Well, at least have more education in schools about refugees and racial justice/harmony as well as religious practices.

This wouldn't work because that isn't the issue.
The issue... as always... is poverty. Poverty, lack of opportunity, and societal exclusion makes people turn almost inevitably to crime, extremism and criminal gangs, latter of which are the guys responsible for rioting last week. Solving poverty would probs involve introducing to Sweden some system where taxes are skyhigh to fund a well-functioning social assistance system that helps people instead of excluding the lot. This is something nobody politically important enough is interested in. Because they are all drunk on Thatcherism.

So, we first solve poverty then Racism?

[Harjanika]

Well, at least have more education in schools about refugees and racial justice/harmony as well as religious practices.

I don’t think that’s going to stop racism.

True, but it will reduce it

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

This wouldn't work because that isn't the issue.
The issue... as always... is poverty. Poverty, lack of opportunity, and societal exclusion makes people turn almost inevitably to crime, extremism and criminal gangs, latter of which are the guys responsible for rioting last week. Solving poverty would probs involve introducing to Sweden some system where taxes are skyhigh to fund a well-functioning social assistance system that helps people instead of excluding the lot. This is something nobody politically important enough is interested in. Because they are all drunk on Thatcherism.

So, we first solve poverty then Racism?

You start to see the scale of the issue, no?

[The Alma Mater]

Well, at least have more education in schools about refugees and racial justice/harmony as well as religious practices.

This wouldn't work because that isn't the issue.
The issue... as always... is poverty. Poverty, lack of opportunity, and societal exclusion makes people turn almost inevitably to crime, extremism and criminal gangs, latter of which are the guys responsible for rioting last week. Solving poverty would probs involve introducing to Sweden some system where taxes are skyhigh to fund a well-functioning social assistance system that helps people instead of excluding the lot. This is something nobody politically important enough is interested in. Because they are all drunk on Thatcherism.

"Poverty" is relative though. Is one poor if one can afford things like food, housing and education - but cannot afford the expensive clothes and fast cars your subculture uses to determine your worth?

[Harjanika]

This wouldn't work because that isn't the issue.
The issue... as always... is poverty. Poverty, lack of opportunity, and societal exclusion makes people turn almost inevitably to crime, extremism and criminal gangs, latter of which are the guys responsible for rioting last week. Solving poverty would probs involve introducing to Sweden some system where taxes are skyhigh to fund a well-functioning social assistance system that helps people instead of excluding the lot. This is something nobody politically important enough is interested in. Because they are all drunk on Thatcherism.

"Poverty" is relative though. Is one poor if one can afford things like food, housing and education - but cannot afford the expensive clothes and fast cars your subculture uses to determine your worth?

Good point, but I have a question that's a bit off topic:
Y'all have to pay to go to school?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

"Poverty" is relative though. Is one poor if one can afford things like food, housing and education - but cannot afford the expensive clothes and fast cars your subculture uses to determine your worth?

Good point, but I have a question that's a bit off topic:
Y'all have to pay to go to school?

What? No?

[Harjanika]

"Poverty" is relative though. Is one poor if one can afford things like food, housing and education - but cannot afford the expensive clothes and fast cars your subculture uses to determine your worth?

Good point, but I have a question that's a bit off topic:
Y'all have to pay to go to school?

But anyways, sometimes subculture can determine your worth (e.g. Caste system in India), however there is a general idea of poverty. People who can't really afford basic goods. People who can afford basic goods but not expensive goods aren't seen as in poverty, just seen as poorer than average