Swedish Riots

[Perikuresu]

~snip~

Is that what we actually see in practice though ? Fourth generation muslims in e.g. the Netherlands still self-identify as Turks or Moroccans instead of Dutch, still speak the language of their ancestors when amongst themselves and tend to be MORE fundamentalistic than their grandparents were.[/quote]
Oh, interesting, can I see some of the statistics, because most of my basis for the arguments tends to be from anecdotes and observations from me and most of my peers, friends, and family. There's also mental health, which iirc most of the Western World has been grappling with for some time, and obviously that does lead to radicalisation, ik this example ain't European but it paints the picture.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

The Muslims. The Muslims are rioting.

I made the same mistake myself, though, so don’t worry about it. A first reading of the article provided gave me the impression that the anti-immigration activists were rioting. But no, it’s the Muslims.

[Perikuresu]

Of course, we should actually be giving UNHCR the budget that they’ve been requesting for years, so that they can actually afford to provide a dignified existence to the charges under their care and genuine refugees fleeing conflict will have no need to seek asylum so far from their home in the first place. It’s absolutely criminal how underfunded the refugee camps in places like Turkey and Lebanon are.

I fully agree. Ideally every conflict would have a refugee zone guarded by neutral powers but that's probably impractical to do without on some level "Picking a side". But refugee camps can form that kind of outcome in a more spotty way.

I've heard of some proposals to find an area (e.g., an Island in Indonesia or Phillipines or in the Mediterranean) and settle them there, sorta like with Israel, and that has it's own can of worms that would make it unviable + cities are hard and expensive as shit to build.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

Terminally unemployable hooligans rioted. 30 of them are already arrested and awaiting charges. Ostro is just trying to make this look like Islamic revolution Mk. 2022 again and to advocate for some shitty Madagascar Plan.

[Perikuresu]

to advocate for some shitty Madagascar Plan.

I just mentioned it and said how it's unviable, otherwise, two people just said to give a sufficient for the UNHCR to actually build a refugee camp with actual decent conditions

[Continental Free States]

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

The Muslims, the Muslims were rioting.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

The Muslims, the Muslims were rioting.

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

Terminally unemployable hooligans rioted. 30 of them are already arrested and awaiting charges. Ostro is just trying to make this look like Islamic revolution Mk. 2022 again and to advocate for some shitty Madagascar Plan.

Actually... you guys are no better than the Arab news agencies and people who spawned the rumour that the Swedish government is kidnapping Muslim children.

[Knask]

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

About 200 people with connections to criminal gangs, whom the national Chief of Police says had "nothing to do with protests" but used the protests to target the police.

I guess that's all the muslims in Sweden?

[Perikuresu]

Who exactly is rioting? These news articles all seem to be weaseling out of making that statement...

About 200 people with connections to criminal gangs, whom the national Chief of Police says had "nothing to do with protests" but used the protests to target the police.

I guess that's all the muslims in Sweden?

m8 there's more than 200 muslims in Sweden

[Knask]

About 200 people with connections to criminal gangs, whom the national Chief of Police says had "nothing to do with protests" but used the protests to target the police.

I guess that's all the muslims in Sweden?

m8 there's more than 200 muslims in Sweden

Cant be much more when they're saying that "The Muslims" are rioting. That implies all of them, but I guess this is more like two-thirds of them?

[Perikuresu]

m8 there's more than 200 muslims in Sweden

Cant be much more when they're saying that "The Muslims" are rioting. That implies all of them, but I guess this is more like two-thirds of them?

I doubt that even most of the muslims are rioting

[Islamic Holy Sites]

m8 there's more than 200 muslims in Sweden

Cant be much more when they're saying that "The Muslims" are rioting. That implies all of them, but I guess this is more like two-thirds of them?

There are 810,000 Muslims in Sweden.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

[Salus Maior]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

I mean, no, but I also wouldn't assault you for it.

Probably call you an asshole though.

[Fahran]

People can be extremists along a particular axis. Demonstrably, if you do not support a ban on all muslim immigration, you are a member of a political fringe in Europe.

Otherwise moderate people may hold one or two extremist views.

Remember, 45% is fringe now.

I believe the figure was 20% opposed and a 25% uncertain. I wouldn't describe a view or attitude held by 20% of the population as fringe. It's definitely in the minority, but it's a large enough portion of people to possess political relevance and salience, especially if that group wields disproportionate political power and social influence for one reason or another. I'm not really surprised a lot of Europeans are ambivalent or hostile towards their Muslim minorities given their overrepresentation in grooming gangs, the not insignificant number of European Muslims who joined ISIL or al-Qaeda, and a certain penchant for Islamic radicalism and murder or riots in response to blasphemy in places like France and the UK in particular.

I think if Copts or Assyrians had been implicated in a scandal similar to what happened in Rotherham that Christian neighborhoods would burn. And the people reacting to provocations in many instances, though perhaps not here given Sweden has laid the blame on career criminals, belong to a similar outlook as the Pakistanis who scoured towns and villages to lynch a girl for damaging a Quran. Or to the Christians who chased Shelley from university for posting The Necessity of Atheism around the grounds.

[Fahran]

Also what should we do about all those Christians who are harassing teachers for being LGBT or being LGBT accepting?

We should ban immigration from any country where that is the majority view.

Ostro wants to ban immigration from Uganda. Note: This is very uncomfortable to watch.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

I mean, no, but I also wouldn't assault you for it.

Probably call you an asshole though.

Yeah. That's also another point.
If the same thing happening to muslims (deportation, racism, islamophobia) happened to you (or someone who supports these guy's opinions) you'd likely be right well miffed, at the least.

[Fahran]

Aye. And I don't hate Muslims.

Just when they practice Islam.

This feels like a distinction without a substantive difference. There are millions of Muslims who observe their faith just fine without committing abominable crimes. I don't see any harm in upholding halal diets, making hajj, or even donning the hijab, supposing we avoid serious social dysfunctions while such observances of the hadiths and sharia occur.

So we're agreed it's all kosher then and we can deport people for wearing a veil or kneeling towards mecca to pray. Another banger of an argument from the religious they don't actually believe in and certainly don't want applied evenly, lest it result in their destruction, the implicit special pleading and demand for special treatment positively dripping from the utterance.

Ah, hegemony. We never escape it. It's not enough to be tolerant and to go about our lives quietly. We must learn to accept the LGBT+ community. We must learn not to draw Mohammed. We must learn this or that to appease some ideologue.

[Fahran]

Yeah. That's also another point.
If the same thing happening to muslims (deportation, racism, islamophobia) happened to you (or someone who supports these guy's opinions) you'd likely be right well miffed, at the least.

As a Jew, I get angry when I see sukkot vandalized or when I hear nasty things said about my people. We're still the religious group most likely to experience discrimination in the United States. If someone proposed to burn the Tanakh, my instinct would not be to riot. It would be to respond with words or peaceful actions. Violence should only ever be a response to violence - even in instances where another person disrespects your community.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

Yeah. That's also another point.
If the same thing happening to muslims (deportation, racism, islamophobia) happened to you (or someone who supports these guy's opinions) you'd likely be right well miffed, at the least.

As a Jew, I get angry when I see sukkot vandalized or when I hear nasty things said about my people. We're still the religious group most likely to experience discrimination in the United States. If someone proposed to burn the Tanakh, my instinct would not be to riot. It would be to respond with words or peaceful actions. Violence should only ever be a response to violence - even in instances where another person disrespects your community.

Oh yeah, of course, not condoning this. I'm not just talking about burning the Quran, I'm talking in general about the Discrimination, Racism, Islamophobia, etc, that muslims experience. It doesn't make sense for people to treat muslims like this if they wouldn't appreciate being treated like it, is my point.

[Fahran]

Oh yeah, of course, not condoning this. I'm not just talking about burning the Quran, I'm talking in general about the Discrimination, Racism, Islamophobia, etc, that muslims experience. It doesn't make sense for people to treat muslims like this if they wouldn't appreciate being treated like it, is my point.

I think that's something that's often lost in these conversations - magnanimity, charity, and kindness. Of course, we shouldn't mistreat or dishonor our neighbors. It creates profound resentment and leads to long-festering enmities. In this case, I think I can point to dozens of instances where the problem arises principally from a lack of magnanimity or basic decency. It's unjust to gang rape English or Sikh girls because they belong to an out-group or to sexually assault German women because they belong to an out-group. It's unjust to pull the hijabs from French-Algerian or French-Moroccan women or liken British Pakistani women to letter boxes - though I do believe the niqab and burqa should be banned. It's unjust to behead a school teacher because a lie a girl told about him showing a picture of Mohammed to conceal the fact that she was cutting class from her parents. It's unjust to draw Mohammed with a bomb in place of his turban. It's unjust to physically assault Muslims on trains. There's next to no magnanimity of spirit or charity towards one's neighbors in these acts. A large part of the problem is that they do not perceive the other as a neighbor, but, rather, as a political enemy, a kuffir, or an extremist threat.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

A large part of the problem is that they [...] perceive the other [...] as a political enemy [...] or an extremist threat.

...because they are?

[EDIT: anecdote snipped]

I am not interested in neighbourly compromise with these superstitious reactionaries. These systems of faith represent a very real danger to very real people. I am, therefore, interested merely in uprooting them out of the societies where we live. And if that offends some people because their magic sky father or some fantasy novels he coauthored says I can’t do that, well, I don’t care.

The ability of religious people to insulate themselves and their reactionary traditions from secular law and modern values must be destroyed. No more accepting “well it’s a sincerely held religious belief” as an excuse for anything!

[Fahran]

A large part of the problem is that they [...] perceive the other [...] as a political enemy [...] or an extremist threat.

...because they are?

[EDIT: anecdote snipped]

I am not interested in neighbourly compromise with these superstitious reactionaries. These systems of faith represent a very real danger to very real people. I am, therefore, interested merely in uprooting them out of the societies where we live. And if that offends some people because their magic sky father or some fantasy novels he coauthored says I can’t do that, well, I don’t care.

The ability of religious people to insulate themselves and their reactionary traditions from secular law and modern values must be destroyed. No more accepting “well it’s a sincerely held religious belief” as an excuse for anything!

And, now that you have resolved to destroy their traditions, their identities, their secluded places, their communities, and their very devotion to G-d, why should they not fight you tooth and nail, for every bloody inch? You have made compromise impossible in your fanaticism, in your own atheistic fundamentalism. It suffices to me that the same laws and civil customs that dictate how citizens should behave are upheld among religious communities. It does me no injustice if two Muslim men make a business deal that will be governed by sharia and that does not violate any secular laws. It does not wound me if a woman prays five times daily and gives money to the poor and hungry to uphold her faith. Secular ociety does have an interest in restraining more extreme expressions of faith, at least in the public sphere, but this does not mean we should uproot entire communities of people who, in most cases, create no problems.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

And, now that you have resolved to destroy their traditions, their identities, their secluded places, their communities, and their very devotion to G-d, why should they not fight you tooth and nail, for every bloody inch? You have made compromise impossible in your fanaticism, in your own atheistic fundamentalism.

I cannot ‘make impossible’ a compromise that was never possible to begin with. I do not tolerate religious fundamentalism, I do not expect to be tolerated by religious fundamentalists, and anyone who proposes any such toleration is being naive or disingenuous. No meaningful compromise can be held between folks who believe that “people who choose X should enjoy the full right to participate in cultural, social, economic, and intellectual life” and folks who believe that “X is an inherent moral evil that should be ostracised and condemned out of polite society.” A society cannot both simultaneously accept as valid and reject as immoral a particular lifestyle, and religious conservatives have made very, very clear on where they stand with regards the things I regard as basic civil rights.

Religious freedom and civil rights are incompatible in the same sense that acceptance of racist discrimination and adherence to racial equality are incompatible.

Secular society does have an interest in restraining more extreme expressions of faith, at least in the public sphere, but this does not mean we should uproot entire communities of people who, in most cases, create no problems.

Currently, in another NSG thread right now, we are debating the efforts by a political party representing almost half the American voter base, including much of its religiously devout and socially conservative communities, to legislate representations of gender and sexual minorities out of public consciousness.

But sure tell me more about how religious conservatives “in most cases create no problems”.

[Elwher]

so if I burned a bible and declared that we need to kick out all the white people, would you support me? I feel like there's a huge double standard here. you're not even trying to mask your hatred of people who aren't like you now.

Would I support you? Not a chance.

Would I support your right to do so (as long as it was your Bible)? One hundred percent.

Would I threaten you with death or start a riot? Again, not a chance.

Some of us can react to things we disagree with by peaceful dissent, not violence.