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Coronavirus Thread VIII: Shanghai Chokes

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GuessTheAltAccount
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:40 pm

To reiterate a point from the other thread:

When I worked in China, Shanghai trips on the weekend were like the icing on the cake. I for so long associated urban environments with success and rural ones with failure that even being surrounded by Shanghai's urban infrastructure was something I took as indication that I'd "made it".

Even after hearing of this pandemic originating in China, I thought a place as famous and tourist-y as Shanghai in particular would have treated its citizens a little better; or at least treated expats who could spread the word to the rest of the world better; than they do now. How disillusioning that the city I used to semi-admire screwed up this badly.

Yesterday, after watching only a few videos about the current situation in China, I dreamt that I went back to China for old time's sake (kernel of truth to that depiction, as I feel semi-nostalgic about it; the place is fucked up, but usually it's fucked up in a charming way) and encountered one of my former students there in a wooden office nonchalantly informing me "just so you know, coming to this part of town without a permanent address is a capital offense". Hyperbole, of course, as I've yet to hear of anything THAT extreme, but it's as if my own subconscious is reminding me that were the timing a few years different, all the shit happening to expats in China now could've happened to me.
Last edited by GuessTheAltAccount on Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:47 pm

I held off on creating yet another Coronavirus Thread on the assumption that Aussie's thread would be unlocked. Which was a Bad assumption :P


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Postby New Visayan Islands » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:07 pm

Tinhampton wrote:I held off on creating yet another Coronavirus Thread on the assumption that Aussie's thread would be unlocked. Which was a Bad assumption :P


I would not bet any amount of money on the deadline not being extended

Mea culpa, Tin.

But I digress; this is telling. Of course, Omicron XE (Extra Evasive?) is starting to be a thing.
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Postby Page » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:58 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:To reiterate a point from the other thread:

When I worked in China, Shanghai trips on the weekend were like the icing on the cake. I for so long associated urban environments with success and rural ones with failure that even being surrounded by Shanghai's urban infrastructure was something I took as indication that I'd "made it".

Even after hearing of this pandemic originating in China, I thought a place as famous and tourist-y as Shanghai in particular would have treated its citizens a little better; or at least treated expats who could spread the word to the rest of the world better; than they do now. How disillusioning that the city I used to semi-admire screwed up this badly.

Yesterday, after watching only a few videos about the current situation in China, I dreamt that I went back to China for old time's sake (kernel of truth to that depiction, as I feel semi-nostalgic about it; the place is fucked up, but usually it's fucked up in a charming way) and encountered one of my former students there in a wooden office nonchalantly informing me "just so you know, coming to this part of town without a permanent address is a capital offense". Hyperbole, of course, as I've yet to hear of anything THAT extreme, but it's as if my own subconscious is reminding me that were the timing a few years different, all the shit happening to expats in China now could've happened to me.


The pandemic, among other current events, has really made me reassess my travel ambitions. Just a few years ago I thought maybe by old age, I would see nearly every country in the world, save for those that are just suicidal to enter like North Korea.

Now, it might be a long time if ever before I decide it's actually safe for me to go to China. Even if not for their psychotic covid policies, at this point for all I know I'm on a government list just for all the things I've said on the internet about the Chinese government.

And Russia, this time last year I actually considered going to Moscow and/or St. Petersburg in 2022, but no way I would do that now even if not for sanctions, not after seeing what happened with Britney Griner. Yeah, she is famous and I'm not, but still, you never know when a totalitarian government will kidnap a tourist as a political hostage.
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Postby CoraSpia » Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:39 am

Page wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:To reiterate a point from the other thread:

When I worked in China, Shanghai trips on the weekend were like the icing on the cake. I for so long associated urban environments with success and rural ones with failure that even being surrounded by Shanghai's urban infrastructure was something I took as indication that I'd "made it".

Even after hearing of this pandemic originating in China, I thought a place as famous and tourist-y as Shanghai in particular would have treated its citizens a little better; or at least treated expats who could spread the word to the rest of the world better; than they do now. How disillusioning that the city I used to semi-admire screwed up this badly.

Yesterday, after watching only a few videos about the current situation in China, I dreamt that I went back to China for old time's sake (kernel of truth to that depiction, as I feel semi-nostalgic about it; the place is fucked up, but usually it's fucked up in a charming way) and encountered one of my former students there in a wooden office nonchalantly informing me "just so you know, coming to this part of town without a permanent address is a capital offense". Hyperbole, of course, as I've yet to hear of anything THAT extreme, but it's as if my own subconscious is reminding me that were the timing a few years different, all the shit happening to expats in China now could've happened to me.


The pandemic, among other current events, has really made me reassess my travel ambitions. Just a few years ago I thought maybe by old age, I would see nearly every country in the world, save for those that are just suicidal to enter like North Korea.

Now, it might be a long time if ever before I decide it's actually safe for me to go to China. Even if not for their psychotic covid policies, at this point for all I know I'm on a government list just for all the things I've said on the internet about the Chinese government.

And Russia, this time last year I actually considered going to Moscow and/or St. Petersburg in 2022, but no way I would do that now even if not for sanctions, not after seeing what happened with Britney Griner. Yeah, she is famous and I'm not, but still, you never know when a totalitarian government will kidnap a tourist as a political hostage.

Going to china would just feel too much like providing support to their disgusting government. The only issue is that it's now pretty difficult to live a normal life and not buy Chinese goods, so the only people who can really do anything to make a difference are the manufacturers.
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Postby Ghost Land » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:08 am


Good. Glad they're being held accountable.
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:12 am

Ghost Land wrote:

Good. Glad they're being held accountable.


They're being fined a grand total of £50 (~$65) each.
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Postby Ghost Land » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:15 am

Vassenor wrote:
Ghost Land wrote:Good. Glad they're being held accountable.


They're being fined a grand total of £50 (~$65) each.

That's wimpy then - and especially insignificant compared to what these people are worth - but at least it's better than nothing and shows that they aren't above the rules they make other people follow.

If anything they ought to be fined a lot more than that. Fuck the "rules for thee but not for me" attitude.
Last edited by Ghost Land on Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:17 am

Ghost Land wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
They're being fined a grand total of £50 (~$65) each.

That's wimpy then - and especially insignificant compared to what these people are worth - but at least it's better than nothing and shows that they aren't above the rules they make other people follow.

In theory this should end their careers. The position of a PM who has broken the law really ought to be entirely untenable. He'll probably just be out £50 though.
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GuessTheAltAccount
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:55 pm

CoraSpia wrote:
Page wrote:
The pandemic, among other current events, has really made me reassess my travel ambitions. Just a few years ago I thought maybe by old age, I would see nearly every country in the world, save for those that are just suicidal to enter like North Korea.

Now, it might be a long time if ever before I decide it's actually safe for me to go to China. Even if not for their psychotic covid policies, at this point for all I know I'm on a government list just for all the things I've said on the internet about the Chinese government.

And Russia, this time last year I actually considered going to Moscow and/or St. Petersburg in 2022, but no way I would do that now even if not for sanctions, not after seeing what happened with Britney Griner. Yeah, she is famous and I'm not, but still, you never know when a totalitarian government will kidnap a tourist as a political hostage.

Going to china would just feel too much like providing support to their disgusting government. The only issue is that it's now pretty difficult to live a normal life and not buy Chinese goods, so the only people who can really do anything to make a difference are the manufacturers.

That's a copout. In a democracy, everyone's responsible for what goes on in their society. The public needs to put pressure on their lawmakers to either gradually raise tariffs on Chinese goods, or gradually phase out trade with China. "Manufacturers" are just responding to market incentives, just like everyone else.

As for going to China, is that really any worse than buying Chinese goods? Either way you're contributing somewhat to its economy, but at least if you go to China; at least in the context of an actual work term instead of some guided tour; you can see with your own eyes what the country housing a sixth of the world's population is like, without having to guess completely blindly about which vlogger to believe. (Serpentza's videos, at least those I've seen thus far, are the ones most consistent with my experiences.) If you buy Chinese goods without ever visiting the country that made them, you don't get an irreplaceable first-hand view of the country, just some marginal savings on cost. And then the quality often isn't as high anyway.

Either decision is a deal with the devil, but if it weren't for the current situation, the former would at least be a means to more meaningful ends.

It's like the don't-post-on-4chan half-measure; people rightly point out that they can't lawfully outlaw 4chan altogether, but then they turn around and look for a middle ground between participation and outlawing and decide it's best not to post there at all, but that just gives you less insight into what makes them tick and fewer other ideas on what to do about them.
Last edited by GuessTheAltAccount on Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:59 pm

CoraSpia wrote:Going to china would just feel too much like providing support to their disgusting government. The only issue is that it's now pretty difficult to live a normal life and not buy Chinese goods, so the only people who can really do anything to make a difference are the manufacturers.


I doubt visiting China does that much to support the government.

Maybe you should go after all the business leaders who decided to setup shop in China?
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kannap » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:08 pm

So where it's become questionable whether cases are being underreported again - or not reported at all - in various jurisdictions, COVID-19 Wastewater Surveillance is a good metric for how bad things still are.

And, somebody conveniently dumbed the data down for those of us who hate maths.
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As of April 11th, COVID-19 wastewater surveillance has determined 15-day increases greater than 100% in many locations they have the data for. More outstanding:
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  • Ann Arbor, Michigan: 1,489% increase
  • Reno, Nevada: 1,617% increase
  • Warren, Ohio: 784% increase
  • Hillsboro, Oregon: 1,711% increase
  • Portland, Oregon: 2,896% increase
  • Salem, Oregon: 5,172% increase
  • Houston, Texas: 1,832% increase

Looking at this information, it makes sense why Oregon health experts are warning of another impending COVID wave and the possibility of reinstating a mask mandate.
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Postby Kannap » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:13 pm

Tinhampton wrote:I held off on creating yet another Coronavirus Thread on the assumption that Aussie's thread would be unlocked. Which was a Bad assumption :P


I would not bet any amount of money on the deadline not being extended


Extended until May 3rd
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Postby Kannap » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:13 pm

Picairn wrote:
West Bromwich Holme wrote:Should Xi Jinping face trial in the International Court of Justice for releasing COVID into the world, or would that be a step too far?

I doubt he'd even be in court over this.

if it were to face court would it be China vs who?

The US would have to stand trial for releasing influenza (Spanish flu) since it originated from Kansas. I think we shouldn't trial countries simply for being the point of origin of diseases.


Rest assured if the United States were brought before the ICJ, they'd simply invade Belgium.
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Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:16 pm

Kannap wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:I held off on creating yet another Coronavirus Thread on the assumption that Aussie's thread would be unlocked. Which was a Bad assumption :P


I would not bet any amount of money on the deadline not being extended


Extended until May 3rd


only may 3rd? what was the point?

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:18 pm

Picairn wrote:
West Bromwich Holme wrote:Should Xi Jinping face trial in the International Court of Justice for releasing COVID into the world, or would that be a step too far?

I doubt he'd even be in court over this.

if it were to face court would it be China vs who?

The US would have to stand trial for releasing influenza (Spanish flu) since it originated from Kansas. I think we shouldn't trial countries simply for being the point of origin of diseases.

I'm okay with the US facing justice for its reckless endangerment to the rest of the world along with China. We need SOME incentive to make countries avoid the practices that lead to the creation of new contagions, and the current incentives have plainly been inadequate.

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Postby Aggicificicerous » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:26 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:That's a copout. In a democracy, everyone's responsible for what goes on in their society. The public needs to put pressure on their lawmakers to either gradually raise tariffs on Chinese goods, or gradually phase out trade with China. "Manufacturers" are just responding to market incentives, just like everyone else.

As for going to China, is that really any worse than buying Chinese goods? Either way you're contributing somewhat to its economy, but at least if you go to China; at least in the context of an actual work term instead of some guided tour; you can see with your own eyes what the country housing a sixth of the world's population is like, without having to guess completely blindly about which vlogger to believe. (Serpentza's videos, at least those I've seen thus far, are the ones most consistent with my experiences.) If you buy Chinese goods without ever visiting the country that made them, you don't get an irreplaceable first-hand view of the country, just some marginal savings on cost. And then the quality often isn't as high anyway.

Either decision is a deal with the devil, but if it weren't for the current situation, the former would at least be a means to more meaningful ends.

It's like the don't-post-on-4chan half-measure; people rightly point out that they can't lawfully outlaw 4chan altogether, but then they turn around and look for a middle ground between participation and outlawing and decide it's best not to post there at all, but that just gives you less insight into what makes them tick and fewer other ideas on what to do about them.


Gosh, you're a fickle ally. How did you go from loving China and the CCP to this so fast? Why are you so surprised by what's happening in Shanghai? Did you not see their initial response to Covid? This is what the CCP has always been, and you used to love them for it. Now you see Shanghai and your response is 'boycott China.' Oh, and now you're all about democracy. I'm getting second hand whiplash.
Last edited by Aggicificicerous on Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Izandai » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:19 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Picairn wrote:The US would have to stand trial for releasing influenza (Spanish flu) since it originated from Kansas. I think we shouldn't trial countries simply for being the point of origin of diseases.

I'm okay with the US facing justice for its reckless endangerment to the rest of the world along with China. We need SOME incentive to make countries avoid the practices that lead to the creation of new contagions, and the current incentives have plainly been inadequate.

Every country involved in WW1 ignored the existence of the 1918 flu, since doing anything to deal with it would've been bad for the war effort. Blaming the US specifically is unjustified singling out, just like blaming China for COVID-19 is.
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Postby Xmara » Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:45 pm

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only may 3rd? what was the point?

Still a couple of extra weeks. And I suppose it could be extended again.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:49 pm

Aggicificicerous wrote:This is what the CCP has always been, and you used to love them for it.

Any evidence of this? Any? At all? Or are you just strawmanning?

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Postby Aggicificicerous » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:51 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Aggicificicerous wrote:This is what the CCP has always been, and you used to love them for it.

Any evidence of this? Any? At all? Or are you just strawmanning?


Ok, I don't actually know what goes on in your head. But going from singing the praises of the CCP to whatever this is seems rather damning.

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:52 pm

Aggicificicerous wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Any evidence of this? Any? At all? Or are you just strawmanning?


Ok, I don't actually know what goes on in your head. But going from singing the praises of the CCP to whatever this is seems rather damning.

You made the claim, you back it up. What precisely are you referring to as "singing the praises of the CCP?"

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Postby Aggicificicerous » Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:01 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Aggicificicerous wrote:
Ok, I don't actually know what goes on in your head. But going from singing the praises of the CCP to whatever this is seems rather damning.

You made the claim, you back it up. What precisely are you referring to as "singing the praises of the CCP?"


Are you not Infected Mushroom? Your posts and style are so similar. If I'm wrong, then that's a whoopsie and I retract my previous statement.
Last edited by Aggicificicerous on Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:05 pm

Aggicificicerous wrote:Are you not Infected Mushroom? Your posts and style are so similar.

No excuses. You should have asked before you put words in my mouth.


Aggicificicerous wrote:If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and I retract my previous statement.

That's not good enough. You misrepresented my position on one of the most dangerous dictatorships of the 21st century, all based on nothing more than a hunch, without even bothering to ask follow up questions first. Why should anyone ever believe anything you ever say?

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Postby Aggicificicerous » Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:08 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Aggicificicerous wrote:Are you not Infected Mushroom? Your posts and style are so similar.

No excuses. You should have asked before you put words in my mouth.


Guess so. My apologies if I was wrong.


GuessTheAltAccount wrote:That's not good enough. You misrepresented my position on one of the most dangerous dictatorships of the 21st century, all based on nothing more than a hunch, without even bothering to ask follow up questions first. Why should anyone ever believe anything you ever say?


Yeah, I think you'll survive. Whether or not you choose to believe me in the future isn't one of my more pressing concerns.

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