Coronavirus Thread VIII: Shanghai Chokes

[Alternate Garza]

Maybe it was a lab leak. Maybe not. One page, it's discussed as if it's a real possibility, the next page as if it's still something from the Sun or the Star or the Globe or whatever. Or Ancient Aliens, for that matter. Sometimes, it's best to admit that we just don't know. And knowing the secrecy of the Chinese Government, we probably never will.

[Australian rePublic]

Some people who know what they're talking about believe it. Here you go:
FBI Director says Lab Leak theory most likely explanation for Covid
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... 2-pandemic

I'm not saying it's definately what happened, but it's no longer a bat shit insane conspiracy theory.

What would an FBI Director know about it?

The FBI has many virologists amongst its ranks. He would have, obviously, consulted them and formed an opinion based on their general consensus

[The Black Forrest]

What would an FBI Director know about it?

The FBI has many virologists amongst its ranks. He would have, obviously, consulted them and formed an opinion based on their general consensus

Oh really. How many would that be?

The DOE which does have many labs expressed “Low Confidence” with the lab leak theory.

[Rusozak]

My favorite part of this is everyone who wants to believe it's a lab leak theory are ignoring the refutations of every other government department and agency and the "low confidence" part of the DOE's own assessment and just running with it like the Department of Energy is the supreme authority on all things virus-related (Why is the DOE weighing in on infectious diseases anyways?) 50 noes and a maybe mean yes I guess.

[Australian rePublic]

The FBI has many virologists amongst its ranks. He would have, obviously, consulted them and formed an opinion based on their general consensus

Oh really. How many would that be?

The DOE which does have many labs expressed “Low Confidence” with the lab leak theory.

I don't bloody know, I don't work for the FBI. Again, I'm NOT saying that it's the correct theory. I don't know where the virus came from. I'm just saying that the lab leak theory isn't as far fetched as it once was claimed to be

[The Black Forrest]

Oh really. How many would that be?

The DOE which does have many labs expressed “Low Confidence” with the lab leak theory.

I don't bloody know, I don't work for the FBI. Again, I'm NOT saying that it's the correct theory. I don't know where the virus came from. I'm just saying that the lab leak theory isn't as far fetched as it once was claimed to be

The DOE didn’t dismiss the possibility. Low confidence is simply saying they haven’t seen anything to say yes that’s how it happened!

The problem is politics.

It’s valid to figure out how it started and how can we handle this better for future outbreaks. The problem? It’s America and our “solution” is to find something to blame.

For all we know; this could simply be an attempt to distract people from the fact Trump was a complete moron with managing Covid.

It’s just politics at play…..

[The Black Forrest]

My favorite part of this is everyone who wants to believe it's a lab leak theory are ignoring the refutations of every other government department and agency and the "low confidence" part of the DOE's own assessment and just running with it like the Department of Energy is the supreme authority on all things virus-related (Why is the DOE weighing in on infectious diseases anyways?) 50 noes and a maybe mean yes I guess.

The DOE has a section for studying weapons of mass destruction proliferation. Bioweapons fall under that as well.

[Australian rePublic]

I don't bloody know, I don't work for the FBI. Again, I'm NOT saying that it's the correct theory. I don't know where the virus came from. I'm just saying that the lab leak theory isn't as far fetched as it once was claimed to be

The DOE didn’t dismiss the possibility. Low confidence is simply saying they haven’t seen anything to say yes that’s how it happened!

The problem is politics.

It’s valid to figure out how it started and how can we handle this better for future outbreaks. The problem? It’s America and our “solution” is to find something to blame.

For all we know; this could simply be an attempt to distract people from the fact Trump was a complete moron with managing Covid.

It’s just politics at play…..

You're all assuming that the USA is the only country with any hypotheses at all. Surely that's the case. Which other countries have hypotheses and what are those hypotheses? I don't know, I only know about the American ones, but surely some other country must also have a hypothesis should be looked at.

Except of coarse the Chinese. The Chinese ones are outright bullshit and shouldn't be given the time of day

[Neanderthaland]

The DOE didn’t dismiss the possibility. Low confidence is simply saying they haven’t seen anything to say yes that’s how it happened!

The problem is politics.

It’s valid to figure out how it started and how can we handle this better for future outbreaks. The problem? It’s America and our “solution” is to find something to blame.

For all we know; this could simply be an attempt to distract people from the fact Trump was a complete moron with managing Covid.

It’s just politics at play…..

You're all assuming that the USA is the only country with any hypotheses at all. Surely that's the case. Which other countries have hypotheses and what are those hypotheses? I don't know, I only know about the American ones, but surely some other country must also have a hypothesis should be looked at.

Except of coarse the Chinese. The Chinese ones are outright bullshit and shouldn't be given the time of day

This is an argument from ignorance.

[The Black Forrest]

The DOE didn’t dismiss the possibility. Low confidence is simply saying they haven’t seen anything to say yes that’s how it happened!

The problem is politics.

It’s valid to figure out how it started and how can we handle this better for future outbreaks. The problem? It’s America and our “solution” is to find something to blame.

For all we know; this could simply be an attempt to distract people from the fact Trump was a complete moron with managing Covid.

It’s just politics at play…..

You're all assuming that the USA is the only country with any hypotheses at all. Surely that's the case. Which other countries have hypotheses and what are those hypotheses? I don't know, I only know about the American ones, but surely some other country must also have a hypothesis should be looked at.

The fact we are discussing the FBI and the DOE….other countries are not pertinent.

Except of coarse the Chinese. The Chinese ones are outright bullshit and shouldn't be given the time of day

Ahh. Are you one of the “we need something to blame” people?

Why would they be upfront about anything when faced with being blamed right or wrong.

Politics should not be involved with outbreaks and how to handle them better.

[Page]

The Chinese aren't uniquely sinister. Yes, if a pandemic leaked from one of their labs, they would never, ever admit it and would do anything to cover it up, but the exact same could be said of America, Russia, Israel, Iran, Germany, etc.

The next one may very well leak from an American lab and I've no doubt when that happens we'll be told it's not a lab leak long before anybody could possibly know either way.

[Ifreann]

What would an FBI Director know about it?

The FBI has many virologists amongst its ranks. He would have, obviously, consulted them and formed an opinion based on their general consensus

The FBI hires virologists? When their role is nothing to do with virology?

[Page]

The FBI has many virologists amongst its ranks. He would have, obviously, consulted them and formed an opinion based on their general consensus

The FBI hires virologists? When their role is nothing to do with virology?

Their jurisdiction pretty much includes all terrorism that could take place on American soil, including bioterrorism so I am sure the FBI retains virologists, if not as employees then at least paid consultants.

Ultimately though the determination of whether a lab leak had occurred or not is not the exclusive domain of virologists. A virologist can offer expert analysis on the probability of a lab leak but they can neither confirm it nor rule it out. Insight from government insiders could also be valuable, as would be insight from the architects who designed the lab and the engineers who designed the equipment. Even mathematicians might have something to offer, as they could analyze statistics and probabilities.

But to reiterate my point, I don't so much care about whether it was a lab leak or not as I am with the fact that we were basically ordered to believe that it wasn't a lab leak from the start. It's like if we were told the Kennedy assassination was the work of a lone shooter before Oswald was even arrested. Nobody knew either way and yet we were told what to believe, that is deeply concerning. I'd feel exactly the same if the authorities declared it was definitely a lab leak back then.

[Ifreann]

The FBI hires virologists? When their role is nothing to do with virology?

Their jurisdiction pretty much includes all terrorism that could take place on American soil, including bioterrorism so I am sure the FBI retains virologists, if not as employees then at least paid consultants.

Briefings about envelopes of anthrax or essentially fantasy scenarios about al Qaeda releasing smallpox do not give any useful insight into the operation of a research lab in China.

Ultimately though the determination of whether a lab leak had occurred or not is not the exclusive domain of virologists. A virologist can offer expert analysis on the probability of a lab leak but they can neither confirm it nor rule it out. Insight from government insiders could also be valuable, as would be insight from the architects who designed the lab and the engineers who designed the equipment. Even mathematicians might have something to offer, as they could analyze statistics and probabilities.

The FBI, however, are just glorified cops. You might as well ask the dog warden for their official assessment.

But to reiterate my point, I don't so much care about whether it was a lab leak or not as I am with the fact that we were basically ordered to believe that it wasn't a lab leak from the start. It's like if we were told the Kennedy assassination was the work of a lone shooter before Oswald was even arrested. Nobody knew either way and yet we were told what to believe, that is deeply concerning. I'd feel exactly the same if the authorities declared it was definitely a lab leak back then.

I really don't think that's what happened at all. The idea that covid leaked by a lab was being pushed by conspiracy theorists, and plenty of people correctly identified this. That identification is not a command from officialdom to adhere to goodthink.

[San Lumen]

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3 ... dens-desk/

House unanimously sends COVID-19 origins declassification bill to Biden’s desk
BY MYCHAEL SCHNELL - 03

[Spirit of Hope]

An article by the NYT about a new study providing some evidence that COVID jumped from animals to humans. Based on an article from the Atlantic which I don't have access to.

TLDR: Genetic samples posted by a Chinese research team were noticed by an international research team, they included samples of swabs taken from the Huanan market in January 2020. These samples were positive for COVID and also showed samples of some animal DNA. International researchers reached out to Chinese researchers, didn't receive a reply and data was taken down. Not definitive proof but certainly suggestive.

An international team of virus experts said on Thursday that they had found genetic data from a market in Wuhan, China, linking the coronavirus with raccoon dogs for sale there, adding evidence to the case that the worst pandemic in a century could have been ignited by an infected animal that was being dealt through the illegal wildlife trade.

The genetic data was drawn from swabs taken from in and around the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market starting in January 2020, shortly after the Chinese authorities had shut down the market because of suspicions that it was linked to the outbreak of a new virus. By then, the animals had been cleared out, but researchers swabbed walls, floors, metal cages and carts often used for transporting animal cages.

In samples that came back positive for the coronavirus, the international research team found genetic material belonging to animals, including large amounts that were a match for the raccoon dog, three scientists involved in the analysis said.

The jumbling together of genetic material from the virus and the animal does not prove that a raccoon dog itself was infected. And even if a raccoon dog had been infected, it would not be clear that the animal had spread the virus to people. Another animal could have passed the virus to people, or someone infected with the virus could have spread the virus to a raccoon dog.

But the analysis did establish that raccoon dogs — fluffy animals that are related to foxes and are known to be able to transmit the coronavirus — deposited genetic signatures in the same place where genetic material from the virus was left, the three scientists said. That evidence, they said, was consistent with a scenario in which the virus had spilled into humans from a wild animal.

A report with the full details of the international research team’s findings has not yet been published. Their analysis was first reported by The Atlantic.
The new evidence is sure to provide a jolt to the debate over the pandemic’s origins, even if it does not resolve the question of how it began.

In recent weeks, the so-called lab leak theory, which posits that the coronavirus emerged from a research lab in Wuhan, has gained traction thanks to a new intelligence assessment from the U.S. Department of Energy and hearings led by the new Republican House leadership.

But the genetic data from the market offers some of the most tangible evidence yet of how the virus could have spilled into people from wild animals outside a lab. It also suggests that Chinese scientists have given an incomplete account of evidence that could fill in details about how the virus was spreading at the Huanan market.

Jeremy Kamil, a virologist at Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center Shreveport who was not involved in the study, said the findings showed that “the samples from the market that had early Covid lineages in them were contaminated with DNA reads of wild animals.”

Dr. Kamil said that fell short of conclusive evidence that an infected animal had set off the pandemic. But, he said, “it really puts the spotlight on the illegal animal trade in an intimate way.”

Chinese scientists had released a study looking at the same market samples in February 2022. That study had reported that samples were positive for the coronavirus but suggested that the virus had come from infected people who were shopping or working in the market, rather than from animals being sold there.

At some point, those same researchers, including some affiliated with the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, posted the raw data from swabs around the market to GISAID, an international repository of genetic sequences of viruses. (Attempts to reach the Chinese scientists by phone on Thursday were not successful.)

On March 4, Florence Débarre, an evolutionary biologist at the French National Center for Scientific Research, happened to be searching that database for information related to the Huanan market when, she said in an interview, she noticed more sequences than usual popping up. Confused at first about whether they contained new data, Dr. Débarre put them aside, only to log in again last week and discover that they held a trove of raw data.

Virus experts had been awaiting that raw sequence data from the market since they learned of its existence in the Chinese report from February 2022. Dr. Débarre said she had alerted other scientists, including the leaders of a team that had published a set of studies last year pointing to the market as the origin.

An international team — which included Michael Worobey, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Arizona; Kristian Andersen, a virologist at the Scripps Research Institute in California; and Edward Holmes, a biologist at the University of Sydney — started mining the new genetic data last week.

One sample in particular caught their attention. It had been taken from a cart linked to a specific stall at the Huanan market that Dr. Holmes had visited in 2014, scientists involved in the analysis said. That stall, Dr. Holmes found, contained caged raccoon dogs on top of a separate cage holding birds, exactly the sort of environment conducive to the transmission of new viruses.

The swab taken from a cart there in early 2020, the research team found, contained genetic material from the virus and a raccoon dog.

“We were able to figure out relatively quickly that at least in one of these samples, there was a lot of raccoon dog nucleic acid, along with virus nucleic acid,” said Stephen Goldstein, a virologist at the University of Utah who worked on the new analysis. (Nucleic acids are the chemical building blocks that carry genetic information.)

After the international team stumbled upon the new data, they reached out to the Chinese researchers who had uploaded the files with an offer to collaborate, hewing to rules of the online repository, scientists involved with the new analysis said. After that, the sequences disappeared from GISAID.

It is not clear who removed them or why they were taken down.

Dr. Débarre said the research team was seeking more data, including some from market samples that were never made public. “What’s important is there’s still more data,” she said.

Scientists involved with the analysis said that some of the samples had also contained genetic material from other animals and from humans. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan in Canada, who worked on the analysis, said that the human genetic material was to be expected given that people were shopping and working there and that human Covid cases had been linked to the market.

Dr. Goldstein, too, cautioned that “we don’t have an infected animal, and we can’t prove definitively there was an infected animal at that stall.” Genetic material from the virus is stable enough, he said, that it is not clear when exactly it was deposited at the market. He said that the team was still analyzing the data and that it had not intended for its analysis to become public before it had released a report.

“But,” he said, “given that the animals that were present in the market were not sampled at the time, this is as good as we can hope to get.”

[Picairn]

Based on an article from the Atlantic which I don't have access to.

I got your back.

[The Black Forrest]

Based on an article from the Atlantic which I don't have access to.

I got your back.

Thanks!