Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Arkandros]

It’s literally in the publicly available information released *by Ukraine* about joining their volunteer forces. I looked into it at the start of the conflict because why the fuck not go from one warzone to another, but the conditions were incredibly exploitative. To pick a few highlights, you volunteer for an unlimited service duration at the discretion of the Ukrainian military, you are expected to bring your own kit, there will be a nebulous “compensation” (with no mention of quantity, value, or any substantive information regarding said compensation, so they could feasibly compensate you in experience), supplies (to include food, ammo, medical care, etc) is neither guaranteed nor stated to be without cost, and there were veiled statements that broadly implied volunteers should incite mutinies and desertions in other national militaries to bolster the Ukrainian volunteer forces.
This is both a demonstrated act of desperation and exploitation on the part of the Ukrainian government.

Ok, yah I know about the needing to bring your own kit and shit pay but where's the source for literally everything else?

I no longer have the documentation from the Ukrainian embassy, but if you get into contact with them they’ll undoubtedly be willing to provide the enlistment contract for the volunteer forces they provided to me, which covers my above points.

Edit: the economist reported on the indefinite contracts. https://www.economist.com/1843/2022/03/11/fighters-with-ukraines-foreign-legion-are-being-asked-to-sign-indefinite-contracts-some-have-refused

[Washington Resistance Army]

Oh no the conditions are almost certainly awful, there is no warzone on the planet where they're good.

What I'm objecting to is pretty much everything else, because it conflicts with much of the verified reporting, and even much of the articles own reporting. It does 180s between "the Foreign Legion is better than anything Russia can field in combat and we slaughter them" to "the unit doesn't function at all and we're deserting because things are so bad for us". Based on all the other reporting the former part seems to be true but the latter really doesn't. All the glory seeking morons and other untrained types were sent away very quickly and western sources have confirmed the Legion is performing so well it's prioritized by the Ukrainian military for the first shipments of new weapons and systems. These two narratives cannot mix, one of them has to be false.

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

It's a pretty big myth that Russian units in the war are the bottom of the barrel. Many of the units we've seen are contract soldiers (ie, the most profesional units Russia has) using the most modern gear Russia has, and they've still been getting slaughtered. T-72B3 Obr. 2016's, the singular T-80UM2 prototype, T-90A's, BMP-3's, BMD-4's, Su-34's, Ka-52's, Tigr-M's, Tos-1's etc etc. This is Russia's best gear given to their best units and it makes up a disproportionately high amount of the gear they've lost in Ukraine, they sent their most top line guys and they're being slaughtered.

[Wine-loving Chimps]

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

It's a pretty big myth that Russian units in the war are the bottom of the barrel. Many of the units we've seen are contract soldiers (ie, the most profesional units Russia has) using the most modern gear Russia has, and they've still been getting slaughtered. T-72B3 Obr. 2016's, the singular T-80UM2 prototype, T-90A's, BMP-3's, BMD-4's, Su-34's, Ka-52's, Tigr-M's, Tos-1's etc etc. This is Russia's best gear given to their best units and it makes up a disproportionately high amount of the gear they've lost in Ukraine, they sent their most top line guys and they're being slaughtered.

All of that also ignoring how many times the VDV's been sent into Ukraine only to be massacred. If the VDV of all people are bottom of the barrel then we should truly fear the cream of the crop.

[The Two Jerseys]

Oh no the conditions are almost certainly awful, there is no warzone on the planet where they're good.

What I'm objecting to is pretty much everything else, because it conflicts with much of the verified reporting, and even much of the articles own reporting. It does 180s between "the Foreign Legion is better than anything Russia can field in combat and we slaughter them" to "the unit doesn't function at all and we're deserting because things are so bad for us". Based on all the other reporting the former part seems to be true but the latter really doesn't. All the glory seeking morons and other untrained types were sent away very quickly and western sources have confirmed the Legion is performing so well it's prioritized by the Ukrainian military for the first shipments of new weapons and systems. These two narratives cannot mix, one of them has to be false.

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

As well, I'd argue that the narrative you've put forward is one that doesn't mix with what we genuinely *do* know. If they were prioritizing the Foreign Legion, why, praytell, would they require that they bring their own kit? Part of those weapon packages includes body armour and rifles.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 774098.amp
"The new US aid for Ukraine includes a wide range of military equipment, ranging from 25,000 sets each of body armour and helmets to rifles and grenade launchers, thousands of other anti-tank weapons and more than 20m rounds of ammunition."

All infantry is vulnerable to HE. I don't see why you're intent on claiming that this somehow makes knowledge of basic infantry tactics and combat experience useless.

[Kalaron]

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

It's a pretty big myth that Russian units in the war are the bottom of the barrel. Many of the units we've seen are contract soldiers (ie, the most profesional units Russia has) using the most modern gear Russia has, and they've still been getting slaughtered. T-72B3 Obr. 2016's, the singular T-80UM2 prototype, T-90A's, BMP-3's, BMD-4's, Su-34's, Ka-52's, Tigr-M's, Tos-1's etc etc. This is Russia's best gear given to their best units and it makes up a disproportionately high amount of the gear they've lost in Ukraine, they sent their most top line guys and they're being slaughtered.

Russia has sent a lot of people. This includes both the absolute bottom of the barrel (Putin has deployed Cadets, for reference) and the supposedly elite. It still has to be mentioned that many of those units were essentially paper tigers too, before the war, that maintained artificially inflated numbers. A lot of their troops were contract soldiers insofar as they were told "hey sign this contract, we're doing a training exercise near Ukraine" and then got told "Word just came from the top, we're invading".
None of this, by the way, disproves what I've already said. Both sides have exhausted huge amounts of manpower in this war, and the "lesser" units are being used to preserve the "greater" units. If anything, this just reinforces the notion that the Reddit Legion is being used as a sacrifical meatgrinder when necessary.

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

As well, I'd argue that the narrative you've put forward is one that doesn't mix with what we genuinely *do* know. If they were prioritizing the Foreign Legion, why, praytell, would they require that they bring their own kit? Part of those weapon packages includes body armour and rifles.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 774098.amp
"The new US aid for Ukraine includes a wide range of military equipment, ranging from 25,000 sets each of body armour and helmets to rifles and grenade launchers, thousands of other anti-tank weapons and more than 20m rounds of ammunition."

All infantry is vulnerable to HE. I don't see why you're intent on claiming that this somehow makes knowledge of basic infantry tactics and combat experience useless.

I'm not, ironically you're agreeing with me here.
All Infantry, regardless of if they're SOF or not, are vulnerable to HE, thus, simply saying "well, they're SOF" is meaningless more or less for if the casaulties are low or high, because being bombed to death doesn't care about your qualifications.
I've said twice now that they'd run off Russian Conscripts, to note.

If you mean insofar as I've mentioned their prior experiences not being super applicable, well, a lot of people will note that? Fighting insurgents is not really that similar to being pounded by Artillery. So even if you're some hyper HSLD operator, it's really not that comparable to the conditions you'll be fighting under. This isn't a knock on basic training, it's a knock on the idea that shooting goat farmers is the equivalent to fighting an "actual" war against a relatively peer-power.

[Wine-loving Chimps]

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

As well, I'd argue that the narrative you've put forward is one that doesn't mix with what we genuinely *do* know. If they were prioritizing the Foreign Legion, why, praytell, would they require that they bring their own kit? Part of those weapon packages includes body armour and rifles.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 774098.amp
"The new US aid for Ukraine includes a wide range of military equipment, ranging from 25,000 sets each of body armour and helmets to rifles and grenade launchers, thousands of other anti-tank weapons and more than 20m rounds of ammunition."

All infantry is vulnerable to HE. I don't see why you're intent on claiming that this somehow makes knowledge of basic infantry tactics and combat experience useless.

Yeah, pro-Russians on Reddit have been trying the same tactic and I just don't understand it. Like, duh, it's not news to anyone that human beings get blown up and die when bombed, and it doesn't matter if they are Russian, Ukrainian or Foreign Legion.

What matters of course is how likely they are to get bombed, and how they will fare in a combat situation. On both counts, we have no reason to believe that the Foreign Legion are somehow worse than your average infantry formation. And plenty (albeit piecemeal) evidence that they are capable of kicking Russian ass, considering how often Belorussian Moustache Man's been filming himself in front of burning Russian vehicles.

The whole thing is made even weirder by this insistence that they are only beating miserable conscripts. Like, okay, but if that's what Russia's sending then the Foreign Legion literally only needs to be good enough to destroy conscripts to be an effective fighting force for Ukraine. Goalposting about the Russian regulars being better or whatever doesn't change the fact that Russia doesn't hold Kiev, in part because Foreign Legionnaires killed Russian conscripts, mission accomplished.

[Kalaron]

All infantry is vulnerable to HE. I don't see why you're intent on claiming that this somehow makes knowledge of basic infantry tactics and combat experience useless.

Yeah, pro-Russians on Reddit have been trying the same tactic and I just don't understand it. Like, duh, it's not news to anyone that human beings get blown up and die when bombed, and it doesn't matter if they are Russian, Ukrainian or Foreign Legion.

What matters of course is how likely they are to get bombed, and how they will fare in a combat situation. On both counts, we have no reason to believe that the Foreign Legion are somehow worse than your average infantry formation. And plenty (albeit piecemeal) evidence that they are capable of kicking Russian ass, considering how often Belorussian Moustache Man's been filming himself in front of burning Russian vehicles.

The whole thing is made even weirder by this insistence that they are only beating miserable conscripts. Like, okay, but if that's what Russia's sending then the Foreign Legion literally only needs to be good enough to destroy conscripts to be an effective fighting force for Ukraine. Goalposting about the Russian regulars being better or whatever doesn't change the fact that Russia doesn't hold Kiev, in part because Foreign Legionnaires killed Russian conscripts, mission accomplished.

I'll agree that people who are doing that seem a little silly, I just want to also note that it ain't what I'm saying in this thread, either.

[Vistulange]

All infantry is vulnerable to HE. I don't see why you're intent on claiming that this somehow makes knowledge of basic infantry tactics and combat experience useless.

Yeah, pro-Russians on Reddit have been trying the same tactic and I just don't understand it. Like, duh, it's not news to anyone that human beings get blown up and die when bombed, and it doesn't matter if they are Russian, Ukrainian or Foreign Legion.

What matters of course is how likely they are to get bombed, and how they will fare in a combat situation. On both counts, we have no reason to believe that the Foreign Legion are somehow worse than your average infantry formation. And plenty (albeit piecemeal) evidence that they are capable of kicking Russian ass, considering how often Belorussian Moustache Man's been filming himself in front of burning Russian vehicles.

The whole thing is made even weirder by this insistence that they are only beating miserable conscripts. Like, okay, but if that's what Russia's sending then the Foreign Legion literally only needs to be good enough to destroy conscripts to be an effective fighting force for Ukraine. Goalposting about the Russian regulars being better or whatever doesn't change the fact that Russia doesn't hold Kiev, in part because Foreign Legionnaires killed Russian conscripts, mission accomplished.

Part of me wonders if these people—the ones who aren't Russian trolls which are intentionally spreading misinformation—think war in real life is like a video game. It starts off easy, the enemy doesn't send its full strength, then you get to level 2, things get more difficult, then level 3, etc.

Sure, there is something such as probing your enemy's defence and seeing their reactions so you can deploy more experienced and better equipped units where you think they'll be most effective. I don't think that stage of the war would last for one and a half months, though, particularly in a 21st century combat environment where communication is efficient and information processing is very fast, to put it mildly.

[Washington Resistance Army]

None of this, by the way, disproves what I've already said. Both sides have exhausted huge amounts of manpower in this war, and the "lesser" units are being used to preserve the "greater" units. If anything, this just reinforces the notion that the Reddit Legion is being used as a sacrifical meatgrinder when necessary.

This bit does not appear to be true. The only sources alleging huge losses for Ukrainian combat units are Russian state media ones. Other sources allege Ukrainian are, obviously, suffering casualties but depending on the exact date and source the numbers might be as skewed as 2:1 in favor of the Ukrainians. Given Ukraine's significant manpower advantage in the campaign that'd be shocking news if true because they'd be winning both on quantity and quality.

I'll also note you haven't actually posted anything about the Foreign Legion's casualty rates. The only part of the article you posted that really dealt with combat was the end and even that was contradictory. One line says being outnumbered doesn't matter because there's such a quality disparity between the westerners and the Russians and then the other line says they're being sent on suicide missions where they're outnumbered. It can't be both.

[Shofercia]

If Putin would rather destroy the rest of the world for fucking Ukraine, he's even more of a thudding fool than I think he already is.

Not what I said. Putin, and most Russians, would use their nukes to prevent the occupation of their country.

The largest nation on earth with a military far less impressive than it looks, and the formidable political and logistical challenges of running it once Putin and his ilk are deposed, arrested, jailed, tried, and executed.

If by "less impressive than it looks" you mean "perfectly able to glaze the world multiple times", I assume you're also volunteering for the first line.

The time has come for nuclear annihilation, we're unlikely to get another chance at nuclear annihilation, so this chance at nuclear annihilation must not go to waste! /parody

(Image)

Serbia, Turkey, and Myanmar were the three most surprising 'yes' votes for me.

Why? Serbia shouldn't be the only country in Europe to vote "no" or "abstain" - you have to look out for your own national interest. Burma's ambassador is from the previous government that's butthurt at Russia. And Erdogan's unpredictable.

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko feels left out...

The president of Belarus, Russia's main ally, on Thursday urged for Minsk to be included in peace talks aimed at ending the "war" in Ukraine, using a term banned by Moscow.

To be fair, if there's a war on the border of my country, I'd want to be included in the peace talks.

arent the reddit volunteer brigades in ukraine taking absurdly high casaulties

Yeah a Russian tank literally wiped out a whole squad except for one guy who took cover in time.

But that's not how World of Tanks worked!

[Kalaron]

None of this, by the way, disproves what I've already said. Both sides have exhausted huge amounts of manpower in this war, and the "lesser" units are being used to preserve the "greater" units. If anything, this just reinforces the notion that the Reddit Legion is being used as a sacrifical meatgrinder when necessary.

This bit does not appear to be true. The only sources alleging huge losses for Ukrainian combat units are Russian state media ones. Other sources allege Ukrainian are, obviously, suffering casualties but depending on the exact date and source the numbers might be as skewed as 2:1 in favor of the Ukrainians. Given Ukraine's significant manpower advantage in the campaign that'd be shocking news if true because they'd be winning both on quantity and quality.

I'll also note you haven't actually posted anything about the Foreign Legion's casualty rates. The only part of the article you posted that really dealt with combat was the end and even that was contradictory. One line says being outnumbered doesn't matter because there's such a quality disparity between the westerners and the Russians and then the other line says they're being sent on suicide missions where they're outnumbered. It can't be both.

Except they both can be, for exactly the reasons noted by *yourself*. Not all Russian troops are equal, nor is every mission going to be a milk-run about driving some troops off, nor is a hyperbolic statement about the quality of their own forces really disproving that at other times they've been used to soak up a Russian advance with a suicidal mission.

Like there's a huge number of ways that both statements could still be true.

For your latter point, you're right that I haven't. There's a reason, though.

"The legion has already sent units into combat.

"For now, they’re being integrated into local command structures,” said Magrou. He declined to say if any legionaries have been injured or killed, citing the Ukrainian military policy of not commenting on its own casualties."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... f_amp=true

What's most ironic, and probably supportive of the idea that the Foreign Legion is taking a lot of casualties, is Ukraine's abject refusal of the idea any of them got hurt from that strike on their training base. Here's a link with two fighters disagreeing with the Ukrainian assessment that no Foreign Legion members were hurt:

"There, they saw huge numbers of their comrades dead and wounded. “Everything, the mattresses, the beds, shredded by broken glass,” he told me. They decided to get a bus to a gas station and then the border, where they waited more than five hours to get back into Poland. He and Andreas carried only plastic carryall bags, and crossed the border using only their drivers’ licenses because their passports had been taken away (common practice with foreign fighters in Ukraine); their passports were probably destroyed by the explosion."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenat ... ine/tnamp/

[Wine-loving Chimps]

Yeah, pro-Russians on Reddit have been trying the same tactic and I just don't understand it. Like, duh, it's not news to anyone that human beings get blown up and die when bombed, and it doesn't matter if they are Russian, Ukrainian or Foreign Legion.

What matters of course is how likely they are to get bombed, and how they will fare in a combat situation. On both counts, we have no reason to believe that the Foreign Legion are somehow worse than your average infantry formation. And plenty (albeit piecemeal) evidence that they are capable of kicking Russian ass, considering how often Belorussian Moustache Man's been filming himself in front of burning Russian vehicles.

The whole thing is made even weirder by this insistence that they are only beating miserable conscripts. Like, okay, but if that's what Russia's sending then the Foreign Legion literally only needs to be good enough to destroy conscripts to be an effective fighting force for Ukraine. Goalposting about the Russian regulars being better or whatever doesn't change the fact that Russia doesn't hold Kiev, in part because Foreign Legionnaires killed Russian conscripts, mission accomplished.

Part of me wonders if these people—the ones who aren't Russian trolls which are intentionally spreading misinformation—think war in real life is like a video game. It starts off easy, the enemy doesn't send its full strength, then you get to level 2, things get more difficult, then level 3, etc.

Sure, there is something such as probing your enemy's defence and seeing their reactions so you can deploy more experienced and better equipped units where you think they'll be most effective. I don't think that stage of the war would last for one and a half months, though, particularly in a 21st century combat environment where communication is efficient and information processing is very fast, to put it mildly.

Well, these very threads have proven to us that a lot of people think war is like a video game. It's a recurring thing where people spout off comparing the sides to movie factions or what have you. Not going to lie, it's actually pretty fucking gross, but hardly the worst crime we see posted.

But yeah, normally the logic of war is the opposite- send in your best to destroy the enemy, middlings to hold the line and your worst occupy territory. Hell, from what I gather western armies frequently use their best to probe the enemy, seeing as they are better at surviving and retreating if the response is too hard. Putin's generals meanwhile have decided the opposite.... and to continue doing so for over a month now.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Part of me wonders if these people—the ones who aren't Russian trolls which are intentionally spreading misinformation—think war in real life is like a video game. It starts off easy, the enemy doesn't send its full strength, then you get to level 2, things get more difficult, then level 3, etc.

Sure, there is something such as probing your enemy's defence and seeing their reactions so you can deploy more experienced and better equipped units where you think they'll be most effective. I don't think that stage of the war would last for one and a half months, though, particularly in a 21st century combat environment where communication is efficient and information processing is very fast, to put it mildly.

Well, these very threads have proven to us that a lot of people think war is like a video game. It's a recurring thing where people spout off comparing the sides to movie factions or what have you. Not going to lie, it's actually pretty fucking gross, but hardly the worst crime we see posted.

But yeah, normally the logic of war is the opposite- send in your best to destroy the enemy, middlings to hold the line and your worst occupy territory. Hell, from what I gather western armies frequently use their best to probe the enemy, seeing as they are better at surviving and retreating if the response is too hard. Putin's generals meanwhile have decided the opposite.... and to continue doing so for over a month now.

I will actually go to bat for the Russians here and say if you were in their shoes the way things played out actually does make some degree of sense. It's clear they were hoping for a repeat of 2014 where overwhelming force simply broke the will of most of the Ukrainians to fight and Russia would be able to simply occupy and do what it wanted, just like it did with Crimea and Donetsk/Luhansk. The problems came in when their intel seemingly, somehow, missed all the reorganization and foreign training the Ukrainian military had undergone to actually become a competent and even partially westernized fighting force. Rolling over them might have worked in 2014 when it was just "post-Soviet state #7" but I struggle to see how the Kremlin could have predicted the same thing would happen again. The only explanation I can really come up with is that the reporting about Putin being in a bubble with yes-men must be true.

[Port Caverton]

Tbf Poland deserves to expand. Hopefully into Kaliningrad

Kaliningrad Oblast is inhabited by ethnic Russians, none of which want to be part of Poland. Your options are to ethnically cleanse the region and either kill/deport the Russians--which is literally how they got there in the first place; it wasn't right when the USSR did it and it's not right now--or force a territory of 900,000+ people to be part of a country it doesn't to be against their will, in violation of their right to self-determination.

1) We need to liberate kaliningrad from the fascist goverment that is running Russia
2) Kaliningrad is stolen Polish land. Note that this doesn't mean I wanna get rid of the Russians. I just want them to stop living under such an oppresive goverment

Either way it's imperialism. I'm glad you finally admitted that imperialism is okay when it's by countries you like because it shows you're not worth engaging with.

Which is why you continued replying after this

I'm not the one defending Russia at every occasion

I have always supported Ukraine, from the moment the invasion occurred. I do not support the Russian invasion at all. I have never, not once, made a single post that celebrated, praised, justified, or defended the Russian invasion. I have only ever challenged the lie by our governments that Russia and Russia alone is to blame for the current state of affairs, not just in Ukraine but in Eastern Europe in general. This is not in defense of Russia or it's government. Maybe if you could stop suckling at the teats of the State Department you'd be able to understand that the West haven't been the 'good guys' in a conflict since WWII.

1) You are against sactions
2) You don't want Ukraine to be in the EU or NATO even thought this would have prevented the invasion in the first place
3) Russia could have stopped the entire situation by simply not being imperialist
4) I have a bridge to sell you if you thought that the USSR was in the right

[Continental Free States]

1) We need to liberate kaliningrad from the fascist goverment that is running Russia
2) Kaliningrad is stolen Polish land

Whether or not the ethnic Russians living in Kaliningrad have any bearing on whether Kaliningrad should continue to be Russian, but the area of Kaliningrad has never in its history been directly controlled by, much less considered part of, Poland.

[Port Caverton]

1) We need to liberate kaliningrad from the fascist goverment that is running Russia
2) Kaliningrad is stolen Polish land

Whether or not the ethnic Russians living in Kaliningrad have any bearing on whether Kaliningrad should continue to be Russian, but the area of Kaliningrad has never in its history been directly controlled by, much less considered part of, Poland.

Idc. Plus didn't Poland control the city at one point?

[The North Polish Union]

1) We need to liberate kaliningrad from the fascist goverment that is running Russia
2) Kaliningrad is stolen Polish land

Whether or not the ethnic Russians living in Kaliningrad have any bearing on whether Kaliningrad should continue to be Russian, but the area of Kaliningrad has never in its history been directly controlled by, much less considered part of, Poland.

That isn't entirely true. Poland under Kazimierz IV Jagiellończyk incorporated it into the Kingdom in 1454 and it was transferred to Ducal Prussia in 1466, remaining a Polish fiefdom until 1657 gaining independence under the Treaty of Welawa-Bydgoszcz.

The Swedes occupied it for 2 years in there, but for the remainder of the time it was under Polish administration directly for 12 years and indirectly for nearly 200.

[Continental Free States]

Idc. Plus didn't Poland control the city at one point?

No, the Kingdom of Poland held Ducal Prussia as a vassal/client-state, but never directly controlled it outside of wartime occupation, and If we're pulling wartime occupation most of Eastern Europe is stolen German land so I'm not sure why anyone would bring that up.

Whether or not the ethnic Russians living in Kaliningrad have any bearing on whether Kaliningrad should continue to be Russian, but the area of Kaliningrad has never in its history been directly controlled by, much less considered part of, Poland.

That isn't entirely true. Poland under Kazimierz IV Jagiellończyk incorporated it into the Kingdom in 1454 and it was transferred to Ducal Prussia in 1466, remaining a Polish fiefdom until 1657 gaining independence under the Treaty of Welawa-Bydgoszcz.

The Swedes occupied it for 2 years in there, but for the remainder of the time it was under Polish administration directly for 12 years and indirectly for nearly 200.

The first part is untrue. Casimir IV didn't have the authority to "directly incorporate" it in 1454-66, given the State of the Teutonic Order was not just independent but also at war with Poland (a war that at the time Poland had yet to win). The Thirteen Years' War also did not end with the annexation of the eastern half of the Order State (which around half a century later would become Ducal Prussia), but its vassalization. East Prussia (unlike Royal/West Prussia) was never Polish for it to be stolen. If it's stolen from anyone, it's from the Sambians.

[The North Polish Union]

Idc. Plus didn't Poland control the city at one point?

No, the Kingdom of Poland held Ducal Prussia as a vassal/client-state, but never directly controlled it outside of wartime occupation, and If we're pulling wartime occupation most of Eastern Europe is stolen German land so I'm not sure why anyone would bring that up.

That isn't entirely true. Poland under Kazimierz IV Jagiellończyk incorporated it into the Kingdom in 1454 and it was transferred to Ducal Prussia in 1466, remaining a Polish fiefdom until 1657 gaining independence under the Treaty of Welawa-Bydgoszcz.

The Swedes occupied it for 2 years in there, but for the remainder of the time it was under Polish administration directly for 12 years and indirectly for nearly 200.

The first part is untrue. Casimir IV didn't have the authority to "directly incorporate" it in 1454-66, given the State of the Teutonic Order was not just independent but also at war with Poland (a war that at the time Poland had yet to win). The Thirteen Years' War also did not end with the annexation of the eastern half of the Order State (which around half a century later would become Ducal Prussia), but its vassalization. East Prussia (unlike Royal/West Prussia) was never Polish for it to be stolen. If it's stolen from anyone, it's from the Sambians.

In 1454 the city was formally assumed into Poland at the request of the Prussian Confederation that revolted against the Teutonic Order, upon the signing of the II Peace of Toruń which made the Teutonic Order a Polish vassal that would eventually become Ducal Prussia its administration was returned to the newly-vassalized Teutonic Order. Whether one wants to view this as a purely military occupation is up to them

[Continental Free States]

In 1454 the city was formally assumed into Poland at the request of the Prussian Confederation that revolted against the Teutonic Order, upon the signing of the II Peace of Toruń which made the Teutonic Order a Polish vassal that would eventually become Ducal Prussia its administration was returned to the newly-vassalized Teutonic Order. Whether one wants to view this as a purely military occupation is up to them

This is a threadjack, so I'm not going to continue it any longer here, but no. The Prussian Confederation didn't control Prussia for its patrons in Poland to annex it. That's literally why the Thirteen Years' War happened. Though it was one of the participating cities of the Confederation, it was not annexed as part of Royal Prussia as you well know.

[Archinstinct]

Ok, yah I know about the needing to bring your own kit and shit pay but where's the source for literally everything else?

I no longer have the documentation from the Ukrainian embassy, but if you get into contact with them they’ll undoubtedly be willing to provide the enlistment contract for the volunteer forces they provided to me, which covers my above points.

Edit: the economist reported on the indefinite contracts. https://www.economist.com/1843/2022/03/11/fighters-with-ukraines-foreign-legion-are-being-asked-to-sign-indefinite-contracts-some-have-refused

Ignore list for you.

[Antipatros]

Or, both sides are actually awful and drained from a long-running conflict that's killed a ton of their troops.

I repeat, can a bunch of former SOF guys run off a bunch of Russian Conscripts? Yeah. Will that save them from a bomb? Nah.
Russian Ground forces don't want to advance because they're literally the bottom of the barrel, this should give you no reason to think Ukraine isn't also incompetent-ish, especially when it comes to sending units into meat-grinders because they have to stop the Russians from pressing their conscripts forward.

Ukraine has taken a pretty huge amount of casaulties, they really don't care that much about what one more warm body does in the war, so long as they move up.

It's a pretty big myth that Russian units in the war are the bottom of the barrel. Many of the units we've seen are contract soldiers (ie, the most profesional units Russia has) using the most modern gear Russia has, and they've still been getting slaughtered. T-72B3 Obr. 2016's, the singular T-80UM2 prototype, T-90A's, BMP-3's, BMD-4's, Su-34's, Ka-52's, Tigr-M's, Tos-1's etc etc. This is Russia's best gear given to their best units and it makes up a disproportionately high amount of the gear they've lost in Ukraine, they sent their most top line guys and they're being slaughtered.

To add to this:

2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division and 4th Guards Tank Division (both part of 1st Guards Tank Army) deployed around Voronezh and went into Ukraine in the vicinity of Sumy. Those are some of the most elite units in the Russian Army.

Pictures:
https://twitter.com/CITeam_en/status/1492797951952961543
https://twitter.com/HN_Schlottman/status/1497937647418765315
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1498625113260011520
https://mobile.twitter.com/Danspiun/status/1503397729967476743

[Barbbanos]

feel like the conflict and bloodshed dragging on is the worst possible option at this point. will there ever be an end ?

[Archinstinct]

feel like the conflict and bloodshed dragging on is the worst possible option at this point. will there ever be an end ?

Yeah. Not for a while though.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

All right, I have but one question regarding the Bucha- the city’s mayor has released the video joyfully explaining that the Russians have left the city on April 1st- however judging from the sheer number of bodies supposedly scattered everywhere, I think that this would’ve been the subject he would be talking about.

This was probably discussed before but hey I couldn’t find it