Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Is this reasonable?

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ifies-live

Ukraine’s foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, accused Nato of “doing literally nothing” in the face of Russia’s invasion of his country. Speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Kuleba praised the EU for its “revolutionary” decisions to back Kyiv but said the Nato military alliance had been “completely sidelined”...

Zelenskiy rejected the notion that his country should cede territory to make peace with Russia. “Symptomatic editorials began to appear in some Western media stating that Ukraine must allegedly accept so-called difficult compromises by giving up territory in exchange for peace,” he said in his latest nightly address. Those who advise Ukraine to give up territory fail to see the ordinary people, he said, “who actually live in the territory they propose to exchange for the illusion of peace.” Presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych added: “No one is going to trade a gram of our sovereignty or a millimetre of our territory. Our children are dying, soldiers are being blown apart by shells, and they tell us to sacrifice territory. Get lost. It’s never going to happen.”

I am no fan of NATO, having studied its history in some depth (and having lived through most of its history), but, in this case, NATO is trying to avoid becoming embroiled in a world war.

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

Jesus, those aren't great odds in that area.

These are actually pretty ok odds considering who's on the defensive.

Ukraine can also push more forces East from Kharkiv towards Izyum to divert the Russians or just make a general movement of troops to the Donbass. They have options, manpower, and weapons.

[Picairn]

Ukraine appears to have successfully removed the Russians from the Bakhmut-Lysychansk road.

[Sungoldy-China]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

There is not much credibility to this statement ，
There are too many 'sacred' lies in the news from Ukraine

[Ducksberg]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

There is not much credibility to this statement ，
There are too many 'sacred' lies in the news from Ukraine

Such as?

[Infected Mushroom]

There is not much credibility to this statement ，
There are too many 'sacred' lies in the news from Ukraine

Such as?

1 minute he’s mobilized over 1 million men and Russia “will be defeated,” the next minute he’s out numbered 7 to 1. Which is it?

Also, supposedly using/talking about laser weapons means you’re about to lose a war. And Russia will be using chemical weapons soon because it was warning Ukraine not to do so.

[Vassenor]

Such as?

1 minute he’s mobilized over 1 million men and Russia “will be defeated,” the next minute he’s out numbered 7 to 1. Which is it?

Also, supposedly using/talking about laser weapons means you’re about to lose a war. And Russia will be using chemical weapons soon because it was warning Ukraine not to do so.

Still ignoring where we explained in detail what the laser thing actually meant and how badly you got it wrong, I see.

[Ducksberg]

Such as?

1 minute he’s mobilized over 1 million men and Russia “will be defeated,” the next minute he’s out numbered 7 to 1. Which is it?

Also, supposedly using/talking about laser weapons means you’re about to lose a war. And Russia will be using chemical weapons soon because it was warning Ukraine not to do so.

Russia has a lot more people than Ukraine and given their poor performance, Ukraine may come out of the war without having to give too many, if any, concessions. AFAIK the 7:1 ratio is only at a specific place but can't remember off the top of my head. Also how many countries have been invaded and just gone "yeah we're probably going to lose :/"?

[Infected Mushroom]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/europe/live-new ... index.html

Putin makes rare visit to military hospital and meets with soldiers wounded in Ukraine

Russian President Vladimir Putin met Wednesday with soldiers wounded in fighting in Ukraine during a rare visit to a military hospital, according to footage released by the Kremlin.

Putin visited the Mandryk Central Military Clinical Hospital of the Russian Defense Ministry in Moscow and "spoke with members of the Russian Armed Forces undergoing treatment after being wounded during the special military operation, as well as with the hospital’s medical personnel," according to the Kremlin.

Putin, wearing a medical gown, asked the servicemen how they felt, where they were from and how their families were doing, the video showed.

Putin was accompanied by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

On Wednesday, Putin also visited the National Crisis Management Center of the Ministry of Emergencies, according to the Kremlin.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday the president "constantly takes interest in and keeps under his control the topic of conditions provided for those wounded in the course of the special military operation," according to Russian state news agency TASS.

[Ducksberg]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-05-25-22/index.html

Putin makes rare visit to military hospital and meets with soldiers wounded in Ukraine

Russian President Vladimir Putin met Wednesday with soldiers wounded in fighting in Ukraine during a rare visit to a military hospital, according to footage released by the Kremlin.

Putin visited the Mandryk Central Military Clinical Hospital of the Russian Defense Ministry in Moscow and "spoke with members of the Russian Armed Forces undergoing treatment after being wounded during the special military operation, as well as with the hospital’s medical personnel," according to the Kremlin.

Putin, wearing a medical gown, asked the servicemen how they felt, where they were from and how their families were doing, the video showed.

Putin was accompanied by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

On Wednesday, Putin also visited the National Crisis Management Center of the Ministry of Emergencies, according to the Kremlin.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday the president "constantly takes interest in and keeps under his control the topic of conditions provided for those wounded in the course of the special military operation," according to Russian state news agency TASS.

Not like Putin's the reason why there are any injured soldiers at all...

[Phoenii]

^ _ Picairn (I answer to the argument debated in your post, in brief, as a sign of trust, or confort at least, relatively to other posters.

please do not get offended, at least a debate means a portion of plausible hope). no, Zelensky is right and Kissinger's senile attempt is offensive.

please, I suggest to you to go search for Kissinger thesys and for his other speeches. below 'soft touched' statement (which, relatively for him, "renounce to all your country land's profit -and income-

for your treasury, and give it as refund for your imposer" sadly is), his substantial standing is different. Kissinger's policy stands for a partition agreement between supposed 'powers' (same as slices of a pie),

as they shall be permanently recognised in official close-doors ' ' "diplomacy" ' ' depending on their relative, and supposed, brute force.

it has nothing to do with humanitarian preoccupation (as they are to eat 'their' slice of the pie, which is the aim), and it looks toward reciprocity in implicit collaboration between summoned 'powers',

in 'keeping below' peoples living under 'their -supposed- spheres'. so that the show of force can be practiced: without doom, and with satisfaction for the 'powerfuls'.

what else? ..about the so called 'regions', there are so many official maps of it. I can not put it here now, you can look for it everywhere easely.

encompassing the south and the east, the people left in the remnant 'little uckraine' would not have means to substain itself.

sentences that both plead for survaival of people and for renouncing to south and to east altogether do not make any sense, as such is materially impossible.

it is for these reasons that these sort of statement have no clue, they serve merely to plead some anti-historical thesys from some Kissinger (less than mediocre, even at his time),

glod bless us for not having him around again. then, about the nowadays balance, the take of the east, with its rent which comes form mines, amply repays -alone- all the cost of the war for the tyrant.

apart the trascendent, immense, gain from bringing terror; to all people who may even think to break free,
or to bring terror to people who may even try to vote for living less oppressed,

and toward bettering their condition in europe, -apart that said- the territorial gain in his hands makes a net-profit for him, against the easy cost, which other sustained for his pleasure, of the war.

what you propose is, beyond naive wishes, a great handhake and encouragement and sign of respect, appreciation toward the tyrant, in the language of hard facts and economic gain.

european (also american, i may suppose) wheeler-dealer's interest parties exploit such shallow, and i believe also too confident, attitude, and they make smoke of words debating nothing to help their caprice,

and to help their thirst for a master.

[Risottia]

I am no fan of NATO, having studied its history in some depth (and having lived through most of its history), but, in this case, NATO is trying to avoid becoming embroiled in a world war.

Also, NATO isn't required to defend Ukraine as it's not a member country.

“No one is going to trade a gram of our sovereignty or a millimetre of our territory. Our children are dying, soldiers are being blown apart by shells, and they tell us to sacrifice territory. Get lost. It’s never going to happen."

That amounts to saying "no" to any possible peace negotiation BEFORE a defensive victory of Ukraine, though. One of Putin's goals is taking at least a significant part of Ukraine's terriitory.

[Risottia]

how many countries have been invaded and just gone "yeah we're probably going to lose :/"?

Czechoslovakia, Denmark, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, France, Italy would pop up to my mind as examples.

[Fahran]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-05-25-22/index.html

Putin makes rare visit to military hospital and meets with soldiers wounded in Ukraine

Russian President Vladimir Putin met Wednesday with soldiers wounded in fighting in Ukraine during a rare visit to a military hospital, according to footage released by the Kremlin.

Putin visited the Mandryk Central Military Clinical Hospital of the Russian Defense Ministry in Moscow and "spoke with members of the Russian Armed Forces undergoing treatment after being wounded during the special military operation, as well as with the hospital’s medical personnel," according to the Kremlin.

Putin, wearing a medical gown, asked the servicemen how they felt, where they were from and how their families were doing, the video showed.

Putin was accompanied by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

On Wednesday, Putin also visited the National Crisis Management Center of the Ministry of Emergencies, according to the Kremlin.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday the president "constantly takes interest in and keeps under his control the topic of conditions provided for those wounded in the course of the special military operation," according to Russian state news agency TASS.

If Putin cared more about soldiers than his ambitions, he might consider allowing the frozen corpses of the boys he sent to die for Donetsk and Luhansk to be interred with honors so their families may properly mourn what has been lost. Putin did this because it improves morale and gives the impression that he cares. He may well believe he cares on some level. I won't rule that out completely. But the logic is mind-numbing if so.

[Saiwania]

We should perhaps get beyond the concept of burying bodies or making cemeteries and the like. It's a complete waste of perfectly good land and resources. We could instead have an electronic database of names/personnel and the awards they won and etc that is kept in permanent record without having tombstones.

The bodies of those who've fallen, regardless of which side- should be cremated. If this is done, that'd be swiftly taken care of.

[Australian rePublic]

Oh for fuck's sake, are people now denying the occurrence of the war in Ukraine? Goodness gracious me, just when I though that humanity couldn't get any stupider, someone scrapped the bottom of the underside of the barrel to find more stupidity. I didn't think there was any more faith in humanity for me to lose, yet here we are. What is wrong with people?

[Australian rePublic]

We should perhaps get beyond the concept of burying bodies or making cemeteries and the like. It's a complete waste of perfectly good land and resources. We could instead have an electronic database of names/personnel and the awards they won and etc that is kept in permanent record without having tombstones.

The bodies of those who've fallen, regardless of which side- should be cremated. If this is done, that'd be swiftly taken care of.

The religious beliefs of most soldiers from either side forbid cremation

[Saiwania]

The religious beliefs of most soldiers from either side forbid cremation

Then they can bear the cost of buying a plot of land themselves, and paying taxes on it every year. The religious churches/organizations themselves can be put on the hook if there is enough evidence that they're not hurting for finances. Most of it is wasted on private jets and fancy living for specific clergy/officials anyway.

[Australian rePublic]

The religious beliefs of most soldiers from either side forbid cremation

Then they can bear the cost of buying a plot of land themselves, and paying taxes on it every year.

Or, they could be buried properly

[Fahran]

We should perhaps get beyond the concept of burying bodies or making cemeteries and the like. It's a complete waste of perfectly good land and resources. We could instead have an electronic database of names/personnel and the awards they won and etc that is kept in permanent record without having tombstones.

The bodies of those who've fallen, regardless of which side- should be cremated. If this is done, that'd be swiftly taken care of.

The point isn't pragmatism and disposing of bodies quickly and efficiently. The point is respect and honoring the sacrifices of the young men the government and, by proxy, the political community sent to fight and die. The point is offering the families of the fallen the chance to mourn and say goodbye to babies they cradled in swaddling clothes, siblings who taught them to play football or snuck them their first beer, husbands from whom they once stole a nervous first kiss, nephews they played chess with for hours each day, etc. It would exhibit respect for their religious beliefs too. This isn't something that would demand too many resources. What it would demand is acknowledgement of what the Russian state has asked of the Russian public - and that's why it isn't happening.

[Fahran]

The religious beliefs of most soldiers from either side forbid cremation

Then they can bear the cost of buying a plot of land themselves, and paying taxes on it every year.

Can't be buried at home if the state refuses to take your body back.

[Vistulange]

Not really no. It'd be one thing if he was asking for things that have some tangible benefit to him, that could plausibly be enacted. If he was actually trying to gain influence, he would bargain for things that would advance his position. He hasn't. He's called for nonsense and the west has collectively rolled their eyes at him. He's smart enough to know the US and EU members call the shots, but not smart enough to know how to use that to his advantage beyond having a tantrum. Either he's just being a troll, or he has the diplomatic acumen of a 2 year old. Take your pick.

He’s thrown his opponents off balance already. It’s similar to Biden’s continuous random “slips” that the US is “fully committed to militarily defend Taiwan.” It’s not a bad play at all and I’m already anticipating Erdogan will get re-elected.

He probably won't get re-elected, no.

He’s thrown his opponents off balance already. It’s similar to Biden’s continuous random “slips” that the US is “fully committed to militarily defend Taiwan.”

No. It hasn't. Nobody is off balance, the west is shaking their head at him the way one does when your cousin drinks too much at a wedding and takes his pants off. He's made a scene, that's about it.

It’s not a bad play at all and I’m already anticipating Erdogan will get re-elected.

well that would probably happen, but not for his political acumen. Rather it will have everything to do with repressing his opposition.

No, I disagree.

He’s thrown his opponents off balance already. It’s similar to Biden’s continuous random “slips” that the US is “fully committed to militarily defend Taiwan.” It’s not a bad play at all and I’m already anticipating Erdogan will get re-elected.

Assuming the Turkish economy doesn't totally implode and/or Erdoğan doesn't drop dead in the next 12 months his victory is not really in question to anyone anywhere.

well that would probably happen, but not for his political acumen. Rather it will have everything to do with repressing his opposition.

Basically for that reason.

No, you're wrong. It is very much in question. You just don't see it, because it's not in English for you to see.

[Saiwania]

As far as burials go for Russian or Ukrainian soldiers go, none of it will matter in the long run. It could be 100 years from now, it may be 500 years from now. But assuming they're all buried, some descendent or someone different who gets the land is eventually going to say, "bollocks to that- I'm not keeping this land as a cemetery for a bunch of fossils everyone has forgotten about or isn't relevant now. I'm going to instead- bulldoze this place and develop it into something nicer or more profitable. I'm tired of paying taxes on land that otherwise isn't doing anything for my budget or lifestyle."

[Fahran]

As far as burials go for Russian or Ukrainian soldiers go, none of it will matter in the long run. It could be 100 years from now, it may be 500 years from now. But assuming they're all buried, some descendent or someone different who gets the land is eventually going to say, "bollocks to that- I'm not keeping this land as a cemetery for a bunch of fossils everyone has forgotten about or isn't relevant now. I'm going to instead- bulldoze this place and develop it into something nicer or more profitable. I'm tired of paying taxes on land that otherwise isn't doing anything for my budget or lifestyle."

Materialism and social atomization were mistakes.

And, Sai, you don't even pay taxes. I barely pay taxes because ya gurl is poor. I do not mind paying taxes to maintain government institutions that are essential to the function of the state - such as the military, schools, or the bureaucracy. The cost of burials for soldiers is one such cost.

[Picairn]

-snip-

I genuinely don't understand what the hell you're saying. You're better off writing in your native language and let Google Translate do its magic.