Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Infected Mushroom]

No, it doesn't. If the misunderstanding was intentional, he (or whoever in his staff is responsible for it) played the wrong card at the wrong time. I wouldn't call him a troll, at least not for this, but I wouldn't call him shrewd either. He played, and is still playing, on increasing Turkey's influence in the West, getting closer to it again on his terms, not the West's.
This move, he failed. The game of getting Sweden and Finland to join NATO is not over, though.

Not really no. It'd be one thing if he was asking for things that have some tangible benefit to him, that could plausibly be enacted. If he was actually trying to gain influence, he would bargain for things that would advance his position. He hasn't. He's called for nonsense and the west has collectively rolled their eyes at him. He's smart enough to know the US and EU members call the shots, but not smart enough to know how to use that to his advantage beyond having a tantrum. Either he's just being a troll, or he has the diplomatic acumen of a 2 year old. Take your pick.

He’s thrown his opponents off balance already. It’s similar to Biden’s continuous random “slips” that the US is “fully committed to militarily defend Taiwan.” It’s not a bad play at all and I’m already anticipating Erdogan will get re-elected.

[Picairn]

With how absolutely shit the T-62s are I doubt that it'd really do anything to increase combat effectiveness.

Ukraine's Territorial Defense Forces (volunteer militia) are fighting with Maxim guns mounted on Soviet trucks. If Ukraine thinks WW1 vehicles (though the truck in the picture is from the 1960s) are sufficient for modern warfare, there is no reason the T-62M modernized in 1983 isn't.

Though I'll have to see if Russia actually throws them against the Ukrainian veteran forces in the Donbass.

[Tarsonis]

Not really no. It'd be one thing if he was asking for things that have some tangible benefit to him, that could plausibly be enacted. If he was actually trying to gain influence, he would bargain for things that would advance his position. He hasn't. He's called for nonsense and the west has collectively rolled their eyes at him. He's smart enough to know the US and EU members call the shots, but not smart enough to know how to use that to his advantage beyond having a tantrum. Either he's just being a troll, or he has the diplomatic acumen of a 2 year old. Take your pick.

He’s thrown his opponents off balance already. It’s similar to Biden’s continuous random “slips” that the US is “fully committed to militarily defend Taiwan.”

No. It hasn't. Nobody is off balance, the west is shaking their head at him the way one does when your cousin drinks too much at a wedding and takes his pants off. He's made a scene, that's about it.

It’s not a bad play at all and I’m already anticipating Erdogan will get re-elected.

well that would probably happen, but not for his political acumen. Rather it will have everything to do with repressing his opposition.

[Heloin]

Not really no. It'd be one thing if he was asking for things that have some tangible benefit to him, that could plausibly be enacted. If he was actually trying to gain influence, he would bargain for things that would advance his position. He hasn't. He's called for nonsense and the west has collectively rolled their eyes at him. He's smart enough to know the US and EU members call the shots, but not smart enough to know how to use that to his advantage beyond having a tantrum. Either he's just being a troll, or he has the diplomatic acumen of a 2 year old. Take your pick.

He’s thrown his opponents off balance already. It’s similar to Biden’s continuous random “slips” that the US is “fully committed to militarily defend Taiwan.” It’s not a bad play at all and I’m already anticipating Erdogan will get re-elected.

Assuming the Turkish economy doesn't totally implode and/or Erdoğan doesn't drop dead in the next 12 months his victory is not really in question to anyone anywhere.

well that would probably happen, but not for his political acumen. Rather it will have everything to do with repressing his opposition.

Basically for that reason.

[Infected Mushroom]

Putin taking the initiative on economic issues and trying to help the workers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 9.html?amp

Putin announces 10% raise to minimum wage

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday announced a 10% raise to the minimum wage rate and pensions in the coming weeks, a move that comes as the Russian economy faces an unprecedented wave of international sanctions.

Mr Putin said in a government meeting that the minimum cost of living will be up 10 per cent beginning 1 June, and the minimum wage rate and state pensions will go up 10 per cent starting 1 July. The bump will bring the minimum wage to about $250 per month and the average pension to $320, according to the Interfax news agency.

“Our key and unchanging priority is to increase the welfare and quality of life of citizens,” Mr Putin said.

He also tasked government officials with increasing pay for Russian soldiers serving abroad as the Russian military operation in Ukraine enters its fourth month.

[Picairn]

The man has gotten even worse with time.

Henry Kissinger Blasted for Telling Ukraine to Give Territory to Russia

The dude is actually calling for a return to the pre-Feb. 24 border, which isn't too unreasonable.

[Tarsonis]

Putin taking the initiative on economic issues and trying to help the workers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 9.html?amp

Putin announces 10% raise to minimum wage

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday announced a 10% raise to the minimum wage rate and pensions in the coming weeks, a move that comes as the Russian economy faces an unprecedented wave of international sanctions.

Mr Putin said in a government meeting that the minimum cost of living will be up 10 per cent beginning 1 June, and the minimum wage rate and state pensions will go up 10 per cent starting 1 July. The bump will bring the minimum wage to about $250 per month and the average pension to $320, according to the Interfax news agency.

“Our key and unchanging priority is to increase the welfare and quality of life of citizens,” Mr Putin said.

He also tasked government officials with increasing pay for Russian soldiers serving abroad as the Russian military operation in Ukraine enters its fourth month.

that won't help the workers much at all.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Which court has indicted him? If one has, they probably don't have the power to actually detain him.

I know. I forgot to prefix indicted with "un."

[Picairn]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Zelensky has also condemned Kissinger:

Zelensky condemns Kissinger idea for negotiations with Russia as 1938-style appeasement

[Pasong Tirad]

Putin taking the initiative on economic issues and trying to help the workers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 9.html?amp

that won't help the workers much at all.

Probably won't even make up for how much the ruble has dropped in value.

[Hukhalia]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

tbh raw numbers don't really matter as much in modern warfare (especially with how piss-poor the russians have been performing) but at the same time i wouldn't be surprised by a hardcore donbass offensive given these numbers

[Washington Resistance Army]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

tbh raw numbers don't really matter as much in modern warfare (especially with how piss-poor the russians have been performing) but at the same time i wouldn't be surprised by a hardcore donbass offensive given these numbers

Said hardcore offensive has been ongoing for a while now. Russia is very slowly gaining ground but it's a far cry from the likes of the Gulf War or whatever; and if the T-62's do start showing up on the front that'd hint that they've lost so much gear that they're having to resort to Cold War era stockpiles to keep it going. Which wouldn't be great for their long term viability.

[Hukhalia]

Zelensky has also condemned Kissinger:

Zelensky condemns Kissinger idea for negotiations with Russia as 1938-style appeasement

genuinely don't understand kissinger's endgame here, though i suspect he just wants to preserve the current imperial status quo

that being said it's interesting how thoroughly hitler mindfucked the european psyche into thinking concessions on all sides aren't necessary for the maintenance of peace in europe apart from the most extreme of cases lmao

[Hukhalia]

tbh raw numbers don't really matter as much in modern warfare (especially with how piss-poor the russians have been performing) but at the same time i wouldn't be surprised by a hardcore donbass offensive given these numbers

Said hardcore offensive has been ongoing for a while now. Russia is very slowly gaining ground but it's a far cry from the likes of the Gulf War or whatever; and if the T-62's do start showing up on the front that'd hint that they've lost so much gear that they're having to resort to Cold War era stockpiles to keep it going. Which wouldn't be great for their long term viability.

tbh it really depends. ukraine's lost a lot of gear as well, in a war of attrition (and if putin feels he's got more to lose by not mobilising), i think the russians would be able to slog thru eventually

not sure tho. this war's been full of surprises.

[Space Squid]

that won't help the workers much at all.

Probably won't even make up for how much the ruble has dropped in value.

Not even close.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

genuinely don't understand kissinger's endgame here, though i suspect he just wants to preserve the current imperial status quo.

Kissinger's brand of Realpolitik is a conservative institutionalism. As you said, he supports the status quo and wants to preserve it. In this case, the status quo is the balance of power between NATO and Russia. He likely sees Ukrainian resistance to Russia as a threat to the status quo. It was Kissinger's policies during the Nixon and Ford administrations which got him branded as an unindicted war criminal. His views have remained relatively consistent over the years.

[Corrian]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

Jesus, those aren't great odds in that area.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Zelensky's spokesman says that the Russians outnumber Ukrainians 7 to 1 in the Donbass area.

Jesus, those aren't great odds in that area.

These are actually pretty ok odds considering who's on the defensive.

[Infected Mushroom]

Said hardcore offensive has been ongoing for a while now. Russia is very slowly gaining ground but it's a far cry from the likes of the Gulf War or whatever; and if the T-62's do start showing up on the front that'd hint that they've lost so much gear that they're having to resort to Cold War era stockpiles to keep it going. Which wouldn't be great for their long term viability.

tbh it really depends. ukraine's lost a lot of gear as well, in a war of attrition (and if putin feels he's got more to lose by not mobilising), i think the russians would be able to slog thru eventually

not sure tho. this war's been full of surprises.

I believe Russia will slog it through.

[Picairn]

Zelensky has also condemned Kissinger:

Zelensky condemns Kissinger idea for negotiations with Russia as 1938-style appeasement

Really hate how negotiation and diplomacy have been framed as "appeasement" here, it's like the online commentariat short-circuited at Munich and paid no attention to other historical examples, or the specific circumstances of the 1930s in general. Annexation or control of territory has happened many times throughout history without the belligerent opening up a broader war in the short or even long term. That some territory is given up in exchange for peace is not an indication of the aggressor's willingness to go to war again, especially if it has paid an extremely high price for victory & is guaranteed to pay that price again, or it is concerned about the higher ramifications.

The dude is not even saying "Let Russia keep its newly conquered territory", he said "Let's return to the pre-Feb. 24 border", which was the de facto border for 8 years. I don't see Ukraine making a breakthrough and storm Crimea & the 2 republics any time soon. The war could well be grinding for the next 10 years if Ukraine pursues maximalist objectives, at which time the Western public opinion & support may have faded away.

[Infected Mushroom]

Zelensky has also condemned Kissinger:

Zelensky condemns Kissinger idea for negotiations with Russia as 1938-style appeasement

Really hate how negotiation and diplomacy have been framed as "appeasement" here, it's like the online commentariat short-circuited at Munich and paid no attention to other historical examples, or the specific circumstances of the 1930s in general. Annexation or control of territory has happened many times throughout history without the belligerent opening up a broader war in the short or even long term. That some territory is given up in exchange for peace is not an indication of the aggressor's willingness to go to war again, especially if it has paid an extremely high price for victory & is guaranteed to pay that price again, or it is concerned about the higher ramifications.

The dude is not even saying "Let Russia keep its newly conquered territory", he said "Let's return to the pre-Feb. 24 border", which was the de facto border for 8 years. I don't see Ukraine making a breakthrough and storm Crimea & the 2 republics any time soon. The war could well be grinding for the next 10 years if Ukraine pursues maximalist objectives, at which time the Western public opinion & support may have faded away.

Yes. It’s the WWII analogy-making again, even where it’s flawed and reality-detached.

[Infected Mushroom]

Is this reasonable?

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ifies-live

Ukraine’s foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, accused Nato of “doing literally nothing” in the face of Russia’s invasion of his country. Speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Kuleba praised the EU for its “revolutionary” decisions to back Kyiv but said the Nato military alliance had been “completely sidelined”...

Zelenskiy rejected the notion that his country should cede territory to make peace with Russia. “Symptomatic editorials began to appear in some Western media stating that Ukraine must allegedly accept so-called difficult compromises by giving up territory in exchange for peace,” he said in his latest nightly address. Those who advise Ukraine to give up territory fail to see the ordinary people, he said, “who actually live in the territory they propose to exchange for the illusion of peace.” Presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych added: “No one is going to trade a gram of our sovereignty or a millimetre of our territory. Our children are dying, soldiers are being blown apart by shells, and they tell us to sacrifice territory. Get lost. It’s never going to happen.”

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Really hate how negotiation and diplomacy have been framed as "appeasement" here, it's like the online commentariat short-circuited at Munich and paid no attention to other historical examples, or the specific circumstances of the 1930s in general. Annexation or control of territory has happened many times throughout history without the belligerent opening up a broader war in the short or even long term. That some territory is given up in exchange for peace is not an indication of the aggressor's willingness to go to war again, especially if it has paid an extremely high price for victory & is guaranteed to pay that price again, or it is concerned about the higher ramifications.

The history of Kissinger's politics of appeasement is legendary.

[Picairn]

Yes. It’s the WWII analogy-making again, even where it’s flawed and reality-detached.

I don't need your endorsement, given your ignorance of everything from naval warfare to geopolitics and propaganda.