Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Vassenor]

Right when did Ukrainian forces cross into Russia then? Considering you’ve previously stated that Donbas is recognised as either being fully independent or a part of Ukraine and not Russia.

They didn’t. Except for the limited helicopter attack I think.

So you’re saying that Russias actions are justified because Ukrainian forces crossed into Russian territory and then say that Ukrainian forces never entered Russian territory.

[Vassenor]

Also I’m sure it’s totally a coincidence that this whole “they’re doing ethnic cleansing and raids over the border” is almost exactly the same as the false flags and rhetoric used by the Nazis to justify invading Poland.

[Vistulange]

I have to say, this is more of a case of a translation problem. There's a phrase in Turkish along the lines of "so-and-so is no more to me", basically, "I don't even know this dude any more". It obviously doesn't mean that you no longer recognise the person.

That's not to say that such a phrase has a place in any sort of diplomatic discourse, but Erdoğan is a grandstanding buffoon who has seen it fit to dismantle the established MFA bureaucracy which knew how to conduct diplomacy, so we're stuck with his gung-ho, "street-tough", macho politics. He's an idiot in some aspects, and this is one of them.

He’s really pulling quite the move here.

No doubt he foresaw the mistranslations. He knew he’d come across as tough to the West and NATO (“he no longer recognizes the Greek head of state???? He means business.) Meanwhile, his domestic Turkic-speaking audience understands he hasn’t reached a point of no return. They see him as striking a good place between harsh and spineless.

Imagine factoring in even linguistic translations into your foreign policy.

You're taking the piss, right? Please tell me you're taking the piss.

If you think Erdoğan foresaw any sort of mistranslation...oh, boy. Oh boy oh boy.

Look, I get that you have a raging hard-on for authoritarian fucks who screw over the people they govern over for their own benefit. I understand that you love the jackboot. That's not fine, but I don't even know you, so you're really low on my "give a fuck" list.

But really, even you can do better than Erdoğan.

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

[Fahran]

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

No, no. You see... Erdogan has been a Kazakh all along.

[Antipatros]

He’s really pulling quite the move here.

No doubt he foresaw the mistranslations. He knew he’d come across as tough to the West and NATO (“he no longer recognizes the Greek head of state???? He means business.) Meanwhile, his domestic Turkic-speaking audience understands he hasn’t reached a point of no return. They see him as striking a good place between harsh and spineless.

Imagine factoring in even linguistic translations into your foreign policy.

You're taking the piss, right? Please tell me you're taking the piss.

If you think Erdoğan foresaw any sort of mistranslation...oh, boy. Oh boy oh boy.

Look, I get that you have a raging hard-on for authoritarian fucks who screw over the people they govern over for their own benefit. I understand that you love the jackboot. That's not fine, but I don't even know you, so you're really low on my "give a fuck" list.

But really, even you can do better than Erdoğan.

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

Ah, but you see, the guy who is running his country's economy into the ground because he thinks low interest rates stop inflation is actually a super-based, brilliant statesman.

He's totally not an incompetent autocrat, no siree.

[-Astoria-]

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

No, no. You see... Erdogan has been a Kazakh all along.

Or Azeri, perhaps.

[Continental Free States]

No, no. You see... Erdogan has been a Kazakh all along.

Or Azeri, perhaps.

Eh, the distinction between Azeri and Turkish is mostly geopolitical. More accurate would be the Turkmen (actual Turkmen who live mostly Northeast of Iran, not the "Turkmen" of Syria, but still).

[The North Polish Union]

Not sure if this was posted here yet.

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

[The Selkie]

He’s really pulling quite the move here.

No doubt he foresaw the mistranslations. He knew he’d come across as tough to the West and NATO (“he no longer recognizes the Greek head of state???? He means business.) Meanwhile, his domestic Turkic-speaking audience understands he hasn’t reached a point of no return. They see him as striking a good place between harsh and spineless.

Imagine factoring in even linguistic translations into your foreign policy.

You're taking the piss, right? Please tell me you're taking the piss.

If you think Erdoğan foresaw any sort of mistranslation...oh, boy. Oh boy oh boy.

Look, I get that you have a raging hard-on for authoritarian fucks who screw over the people they govern over for their own benefit. I understand that you love the jackboot. That's not fine, but I don't even know you, so you're really low on my "give a fuck" list.

But really, even you can do better than Erdoğan.

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

I hate to say that, but IM might have a point there.
If not Erdogan himself, then someone in his staff would have been aware of the linguistics and the potential of being misunderstood. After all, the German Government does not ask people to go to Canossa only for them to believe they should go to Emilia-Romagna (which is a pretty place, but not what that phrase means). There is a reason why the US President's office hurries time and time again to make clear what the rhetoric giant from the White Hut actually means when he opens his mouth.
No, if that misunderstanding was intentional, and if yes, to which purpose, is a good question, and if no, then it raises the question what the Turkish Government pays its people for. If it was intentional and it was aimed to the effect IM proposed, then it backfired to my current understanding - it confuses people more then anything else. No one thinks he is tougher then before and that he means business was clear beforehand (read, that he wants something for agreeing to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, though the question is, if that something is for himself or for Turkey).

[Adamede]

Not sure if this was posted here yet.

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

Guess sending the young into the meat grinder wasn’t enough.

How long until Russia suffers a total male population collapse?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Russia's war in Ukraine: Live Updates (May 25ᵗʰ, 2022)

[The North Polish Union]

Not sure if this was posted here yet.

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

Guess sending the young into the meat grinder wasn’t enough.

How long until Russia suffers a total male population collapse?

Their age- and sex-demographics are already a disaster. There was suspicion in 2014 that Russia was attempting to secure their periphery now because they won't have the manpower to do so in the future. This is essentially the necessary conclusion of a failure to minimize deaths of young men in that strategic policy.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

That is a really foolish move. I mean, if I were a young guy, I would try to join the International Legion for the Defense of Ukraine. As a senior citizen, however, I would probably be more of a hindrance than a help.

[Corrian]

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

That is a really foolish move. I mean, if I were a young guy, I would try to join the International Legion for the Defense of Ukraine. As a senior citizen, however, I would probably be more of a hindrance than a help.

Don't worry, in Russia I'm sure they'll just abandon you as a senior citizen if you become too much of a hindrance, as they appear to do to any of their colleagues the moment they die.

Edit: Hahaha colleagues, why am I talking about them like casual coworkers?

[Infected Mushroom]

You're taking the piss, right? Please tell me you're taking the piss.

If you think Erdoğan foresaw any sort of mistranslation...oh, boy. Oh boy oh boy.

Look, I get that you have a raging hard-on for authoritarian fucks who screw over the people they govern over for their own benefit. I understand that you love the jackboot. That's not fine, but I don't even know you, so you're really low on my "give a fuck" list.

But really, even you can do better than Erdoğan.

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

I hate to say that, but IM might have a point there.
If not Erdogan himself, then someone in his staff would have been aware of the linguistics and the potential of being misunderstood. After all, the German Government does not ask people to go to Canossa only for them to believe they should go to Emilia-Romagna (which is a pretty place, but not what that phrase means). There is a reason why the US President's office hurries time and time again to make clear what the rhetoric giant from the White Hut actually means when he opens his mouth.
No, if that misunderstanding was intentional, and if yes, to which purpose, is a good question, and if no, then it raises the question what the Turkish Government pays its people for. If it was intentional and it was aimed to the effect IM proposed, then it backfired to my current understanding - it confuses people more then anything else. No one thinks he is tougher then before and that he means business was clear beforehand (read, that he wants something for agreeing to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, though the question is, if that something is for himself or for Turkey).

Thank you!

[Tarsonis]

You're taking the piss, right? Please tell me you're taking the piss.

If you think Erdoğan foresaw any sort of mistranslation...oh, boy. Oh boy oh boy.

Look, I get that you have a raging hard-on for authoritarian fucks who screw over the people they govern over for their own benefit. I understand that you love the jackboot. That's not fine, but I don't even know you, so you're really low on my "give a fuck" list.

But really, even you can do better than Erdoğan.

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

I hate to say that, but IM might have a point there.
If not Erdogan himself, then someone in his staff would have been aware of the linguistics and the potential of being misunderstood. After all, the German Government does not ask people to go to Canossa only for them to believe they should go to Emilia-Romagna (which is a pretty place, but not what that phrase means). There is a reason why the US President's office hurries time and time again to make clear what the rhetoric giant from the White Hut actually means when he opens his mouth.
No, if that misunderstanding was intentional, and if yes, to which purpose, is a good question, and if no, then it raises the question what the Turkish Government pays its people for. If it was intentional and it was aimed to the effect IM proposed, then it backfired to my current understanding - it confuses people more then anything else. No one thinks he is tougher then before and that he means business was clear beforehand (read, that he wants something for agreeing to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, though the question is, if that something is for himself or for Turkey).

even if we assume that's true, that doesn't make him a shrewd leader, it makes him a troll.

[Tarsonis]

Not sure if this was posted here yet.

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

more blood for the blood god I guess

[Continental Free States]

Not sure if this was posted here yet.

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

Wonder if they're easing Russia into a state of general mobilization this way tbh.

[Vistulange]

You're taking the piss, right? Please tell me you're taking the piss.

If you think Erdoğan foresaw any sort of mistranslation...oh, boy. Oh boy oh boy.

Look, I get that you have a raging hard-on for authoritarian fucks who screw over the people they govern over for their own benefit. I understand that you love the jackboot. That's not fine, but I don't even know you, so you're really low on my "give a fuck" list.

But really, even you can do better than Erdoğan.

Also, it's "Turkish", not "Turkic". Go educate yourself.

I hate to say that, but IM might have a point there.
If not Erdogan himself, then someone in his staff would have been aware of the linguistics and the potential of being misunderstood. After all, the German Government does not ask people to go to Canossa only for them to believe they should go to Emilia-Romagna (which is a pretty place, but not what that phrase means). There is a reason why the US President's office hurries time and time again to make clear what the rhetoric giant from the White Hut actually means when he opens his mouth.
No, if that misunderstanding was intentional, and if yes, to which purpose, is a good question, and if no, then it raises the question what the Turkish Government pays its people for. If it was intentional and it was aimed to the effect IM proposed, then it backfired to my current understanding - it confuses people more then anything else. No one thinks he is tougher then before and that he means business was clear beforehand (read, that he wants something for agreeing to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, though the question is, if that something is for himself or for Turkey).

The simple answer is, you're overestimating the care the man puts into the delicate intricacies of giving one message to the foreign audience while giving another to a domestic audience. Rather, more precisely, you're overemphasising the importance of this one statement in the grander scheme of things. IM does this as the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You, I don't know.

Erdoğan is a person who uses that phrase, alongside another one which goes along the lines of "who are you?", less literally translated as "who do you think you are?" constantly. So much so that it's become a meme in Turkish social media, actually. Basically, this being news is the equivalent of saying that Erdoğan doesn't know who Angela Merkel is, when he uses that phrase to essentially tell Germany to back off of Turkey's domestic affairs, because he used the phrase "Who is Angela Merkel?".

The "this being news" bit brings me to another point: I quickly looked through the pro-government media outlets when I saw the post. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. This is literally Erdoğan doing his usual thing and it being another Tuesday for him. It's not this thought-out message, it's not a particular clever misdirection, it's just Erdoğan being Erdoğan.

I mean, I get IM. I don't get people who are able to defend him, particularly when they can't check a quarter of the news, data, etc. in that country.

[The Selkie]

even if we assume that's true, that doesn't make him a shrewd leader, it makes him a troll.

No, it doesn't. If the misunderstanding was intentional, he (or whoever in his staff is responsible for it) played the wrong card at the wrong time. I wouldn't call him a troll, at least not for this, but I wouldn't call him shrewd either. He played, and is still playing, on increasing Turkey's influence in the West, getting closer to it again on his terms, not the West's.
This move, he failed. The game of getting Sweden and Finland to join NATO is not over, though.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Don't worry, in Russia I'm sure they'll just abandon you as a senior citizen if you become too much of a hindrance, as they appear to do to any of their colleagues the moment they die.

Edit: Hahaha colleagues, why am I talking about them like casual coworkers?

Unfortunately, even in Ukraine. That's why that U.S. State Department strongly discouraged individuals to go to Ukraine, only groups.

[Adamede]

Russia's State Duma approves a bill removing the upper age limit for contractual service in the Russian Armed Forces. The bill will now head to President Vladimir Putin to sign into law.

That is a really foolish move. I mean, if I were a young guy, I would try to join the International Legion for the Defense of Ukraine. As a senior citizen, however, I would probably be more of a hindrance than a help.

Never too old to be voluntold to take a bullet in the motherland while storming a fortified position.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Never too old to be voluntold to take a bullet in the motherland while storming a fortified position.

I mean, I am hardly an invalid. But I would need to stop and rest every half hour or so.

[The Selkie]

I hate to say that, but IM might have a point there.
If not Erdogan himself, then someone in his staff would have been aware of the linguistics and the potential of being misunderstood. After all, the German Government does not ask people to go to Canossa only for them to believe they should go to Emilia-Romagna (which is a pretty place, but not what that phrase means). There is a reason why the US President's office hurries time and time again to make clear what the rhetoric giant from the White Hut actually means when he opens his mouth.
No, if that misunderstanding was intentional, and if yes, to which purpose, is a good question, and if no, then it raises the question what the Turkish Government pays its people for. If it was intentional and it was aimed to the effect IM proposed, then it backfired to my current understanding - it confuses people more then anything else. No one thinks he is tougher then before and that he means business was clear beforehand (read, that he wants something for agreeing to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, though the question is, if that something is for himself or for Turkey).

The simple answer is, you're overestimating the care the man puts into the delicate intricacies of giving one message to the foreign audience while giving another to a domestic audience. Rather, more precisely, you're overemphasising the importance of this one statement in the grander scheme of things. IM does this as the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You, I don't know.

Erdoğan is a person who uses that phrase, alongside another one which goes along the lines of "who are you?", less literally translated as "who do you think you are?" constantly. So much so that it's become a meme in Turkish social media, actually. Basically, this being news is the equivalent of saying that Erdoğan doesn't know who Angela Merkel is, when he uses that phrase to essentially tell Germany to back off of Turkey's domestic affairs, because he used the phrase "Who is Angela Merkel?".

The "this being news" bit brings me to another point: I quickly looked through the pro-government media outlets when I saw the post. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. This is literally Erdoğan doing his usual thing and it being another Tuesday for him. It's not this thought-out message, it's not a particular clever misdirection, it's just Erdoğan being Erdoğan.

I mean, I get IM. I don't get people who are able to defend him, particularly when they can't check a quarter of the news, data, etc. in that country.

The problem is, for the Turks it might be old news that Erdogan calls into question the self-perception of his countrymen - this time, he, to use your more liberal translation, asked the Greek Prime Minister, a foreign head of state he should be allied with, who he thinks he is, expressed, that he is irked by growing ties between Greece and the US, and cancelled a meeting aimed at easing tensions between Turkey and Greece.
This is a bit of a different dimension then him yelling at some random dude in his country.

I agree, that this is quite likely not a thought-out message, that it is him swashbuckling and rumbling ("poltern" would be a fitting German term), but... a message not only depends on who sends it and his intentions, but also on who receives it and what he understands.
In this case, amidst disagreement about two new NATO-Members, a war in the Ukraine initiated by Putin (to which Erdogan had a good relationship in the past), and his military adventures in Syria (no matter their success), not to mention the economic crisis in Turkey itself, we simply do not have the nerves for Erdogans usual jokes. His intentions might boil down to "I do what I always do, screw the rest!", but we do not receive the message like that as it is not the time for such things.
But hey, I'm not Turkish, I don't even speak the language. What do I know, right? ; )

[The New California Republic]

Apparently Russia is funneling T-62's into the war now.

Sounds fake, because Russia has 10,000 T-80s and T-72s in reserve. Even if only 10% of them are operational, there is still no need to pull out T-62s yet. I would caution against taking current pictures of T-62s floating around at face value because some of them comes from 2018.

They have been spotted in Russian-occupied Melitopol, so I think the reports are actually genuine: https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/15 ... 7T6rkqAAAA