Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Ifreann]

Is there something you people find confusing about the phrase "with intent to destroy, in whole or in part"?

Where's the destruction?

The best way we could really hinder Russia's ability to keep being an agressor would be to set up a system in North America and Europe to allow Russian women ages 18-40 to get citizenship if they marry a western man removing as much of their child baring aged woman as possible so that they face massive population decline.

[The North Polish Union]

Where's the destruction? If having a half-Russian child is destructive to Russians then having a half-Hungarian child is equally destructive to Hungarians and Orbán has been right this whole time.

What Ifreann is saying is that the active policy of trying to depopulate a country to destroy an ethnic group (in part or as a whole) counts as genocide, even if it's done through non-violent means. I think that's debatable and Thomasi's idea is so delusional it doesn't even merit discussion, but I also think you're wilfully misunderstanding the point.

No ethnic group is being destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside one's ethnic group is genocide, which is a position that I'm aware some people on this forum support

Where's the destruction?

The best way we could really hinder Russia's ability to keep being an agressor would be to set up a system in North America and Europe to allow Russian women ages 18-40 to get citizenship if they marry a western man removing as much of their child baring aged woman as possible so that they face massive population decline.

Sure its a really bad look, and not something I support, but still not genocide. Children born of these marriages are still half-Russian; and their being outside the Russian state is pretty meaningless, especially when one looks at the culture of the literally millions of Russians that their successive governments settled outside of or even within parts of Russia (generally with the explicit intention of dramatically altering local demographics, but that's only tangentially related to the point)

[The Huskar Social Union]

The best way we could really hinder Russia's ability to keep being an agressor would be to set up a system in North America and Europe to allow Russian women ages 18-40 to get citizenship if they marry a western man removing as much of their child baring aged woman as possible so that they face massive population decline.

What in sweet christ are you frakking on about?

[Ifreann]

What Ifreann is saying is that the active policy of trying to depopulate a country to destroy an ethnic group (in part or as a whole) counts as genocide, even if it's done through non-violent means. I think that's debatable and Thomasi's idea is so delusional it doesn't even merit discussion, but I also think you're wilfully misunderstanding the point.

No ethnic group is being destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside one's ethnic group is genocide, which is a position that I'm aware some people on this forum support

Sure its a really bad look, and not something I support, but still not genocide. Children born of these marriages are still half-Russian; and their being outside the Russian state is pretty meaningless, especially when one looks at the culture of the literally millions of Russians that their successive governments settled outside of or even within parts of Russia (generally with the explicit intention of dramatically altering local demographics, but that's only tangentially related to the point)

Being outside Russia is relevant when the express intent is to destroy, in whole or in part, the Russian nation.

[The North Polish Union]

No ethnic group is being destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside one's ethnic group is genocide, which is a position that I'm aware some people on this forum support

Sure its a really bad look, and not something I support, but still not genocide. Children born of these marriages are still half-Russian; and their being outside the Russian state is pretty meaningless, especially when one looks at the culture of the literally millions of Russians that their successive governments settled outside of or even within parts of Russia (generally with the explicit intention of dramatically altering local demographics, but that's only tangentially related to the point)

Being outside Russia is relevant when the express intent is to destroy, in whole or in part, the Russian nation.

You're conflating the nation and the state (somewhat understandable since we are on a game called NationStates ). The Russian Federation is not a nation-state though, its a multinational state including non-Russian nations like Buryats, Tatars, and Kalmyks. Once again, the Russian nation won't be destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside of one's ethnic group is destructive.

[Ifreann]

Being outside Russia is relevant when the express intent is to destroy, in whole or in part, the Russian nation.

You're conflating the nation and the state (somewhat understandable since we are on a game called NationStates ). The Russian Federation is not a nation-state though, its a multinational state including non-Russian nations like Buryats, Tatars, and Kalmyks. Once again, the Russian nation won't be destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside of one's ethnic group is destructive.

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
   
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
   
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
   
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
   
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

[The North Polish Union]

You're conflating the nation and the state (somewhat understandable since we are on a game called NationStates ). The Russian Federation is not a nation-state though, its a multinational state including non-Russian nations like Buryats, Tatars, and Kalmyks. Once again, the Russian nation won't be destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside of one's ethnic group is destructive.

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
   
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
   
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
   
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
   
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

That's a non sequitur. Actually read my post above

[Khurkhogur]

What Ifreann is saying is that the active policy of trying to depopulate a country to destroy an ethnic group (in part or as a whole) counts as genocide, even if it's done through non-violent means. I think that's debatable and Thomasi's idea is so delusional it doesn't even merit discussion, but I also think you're wilfully misunderstanding the point.

No ethnic group is being destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside one's ethnic group is genocide, which is a position that I'm aware some people on this forum support

I said and I quote "that's debatable"
It depends on whether you define an ethnic group in purely racial/genetic terms or if you think there's a cultural component. If you think ethnicity is cultural, destroying a culture could be considered genocide. That's where I think Ifreann is coming from.

[The North Polish Union]

No ethnic group is being destroyed unless you seriously believe that marrying outside one's ethnic group is genocide, which is a position that I'm aware some people on this forum support

I said and I quote "that's debatable"
It depends on whether you define an ethnic group in purely racial/genetic terms or if you think there's a cultural component. If you think ethnicity is cultural, destroying a culture could be considered genocide. That's where I think Ifreann is coming from.

Then would marriages outside of one's cultural group be a form of genocide? Are American and British sexpats in Thailand genociders?

[The Two Jerseys]

I said and I quote "that's debatable"
It depends on whether you define an ethnic group in purely racial/genetic terms or if you think there's a cultural component. If you think ethnicity is cultural, destroying a culture could be considered genocide. That's where I think Ifreann is coming from.

Then would marriages outside of one's cultural group be a form of genocide? Are American and British sexpats in Thailand genociders?

No, because they're not part of a concerted effort to depopulate a country by enticing women of childbearing age to move overseas and marry foreign men.

[Continental Free States]

Then would marriages outside of one's cultural group be a form of genocide? Are American and British sexpats in Thailand genociders?

No, because they're not part of a concerted effort to depopulate a country by enticing women of childbearing age to move overseas and marry foreign men.

That also isn't a genocide. Despite what Ifreann keeps suggesting, the use of force is a perquisite for a genocide. Giving immigration incentives to Russian women is neither.

[The North Polish Union]

Then would marriages outside of one's cultural group be a form of genocide? Are American and British sexpats in Thailand genociders?

No, because they're not part of a concerted effort to depopulate a country by enticing women of childbearing age to move overseas and marry foreign men.

It still conflates the nation and the state. Harming, or seeking to harm, states is not generally genocide and its particularly difficult to make such a claim for a multinational state such as the Russian Federation.

--

As I think about it, complaining about enticing Russian women of childbearing age to marrying foreign men smacks of similar rhetoric that the 'White Genocide' theorists use when they complain that allowing African immigrants is really allowing for those immigrants to seduce and therefore impurify the women of like, France or something.

[Sordhau]

No, because they're not part of a concerted effort to depopulate a country by enticing women of childbearing age to move overseas and marry foreign men.

That also isn't a genocide. Despite what Ifreann keeps suggesting, the use of force is a perquisite for a genocide. Giving immigration incentives to Russian women is neither.

The intent is to destroy the Russian nation through depopulation. The means are irrelevant; that is textbook genocide.

[Fractalnavel]

What if we paid everyone some large amount to just move out and disperse?

[Sordhau]

What if we paid everyone some large amount to just move out and disperse?

How about we not to try to manipulate another country's demographics out of some misguided crusade to destroy an entire nation because we don't like their leadership?

[Fractalnavel]

That was a hypothetical to further frame the genocide definition question, not a proposal.

[Sordhau]

That was a hypothetical to further frame the genocide definition question, not a proposal.

Considering some of the takes in this thread you'll have to forgive me for mistaking it as a serious suggestion.

[Vistulange]

The silliness of taking Thomasi's proposal seriously aside, incentives to immigrate aren't genocide, folks. I know we want to go for the "Westerners don't care about Russian lives" agitprop—I'm looking at two people in specific—but this isn't it.

A lot of countries have schemes intended to pull capital and/or humans (this one is called "immigration")...from, obviously, other countries. None of them are conducting, or even attempting to commit genocide by doing so.

Honestly, this is the best summary. Emphasis mine.

Genocide is coercive. Choosing to not reproduce isn’t coerced. But it’s still dumb to suggest the existence of a Russian nation is inherently bad, or that a population crisis well into the future would make Putin back down. I think it’s more likely he wants “hot Russian singles in [his] area” and is disguising it as a serious policy.

[The North Polish Union]

What if we paid everyone some large amount to just move out and disperse?

How about we not to try to manipulate another country's demographics out of some misguided crusade to destroy an entire nation because we don't like their leadership?

I thought communists were into demographic manipulation because of suspicions about the leadership

[Ulajhan]

From what I understand, what is wanted to be done is not inherently Genocide.

But Thomasi by stating the intent behind the method makes it Genocide. A clearly stated goal against a specific ethnic group.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Can we actually go back to talking about something relevant instead of this dumb shit lol

[Saiwania]

How is Ukraine's Kherson counteroffensive going? I've read that a key bridge is being targeted, if it hasn't been completely destroyed, and that if gone- Russia won't be able to resupply for that area.

[Washington Resistance Army]

How is Ukraine's Kherson counteroffensive going? I've read that a key bridge is being targeted, if it hasn't been completely destroyed, and that if gone- Russia won't be able to resupply for that area.

The bridge appears to be unusable and the Russians are now using a pontoon ferry to move things across the river.

[The Huskar Social Union]

How is Ukraine's Kherson counteroffensive going? I've read that a key bridge is being targeted, if it hasn't been completely destroyed, and that if gone- Russia won't be able to resupply for that area.

The bridge appears to be unusable and the Russians are now using a pontoon ferry to move things across the river.

It would be a real shame if that pontoon bridge disappeared

[Vassenor]

The bridge appears to be unusable and the Russians are now using a pontoon ferry to move things across the river.

It would be a real shame if that pontoon bridge disappeared

HIMARS: DELETE.