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Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

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Dtn
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Founded: Apr 05, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Dtn » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:04 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Dtn wrote:note that Ukraine itself simply succeeded a defunct state.

I am being a little nitpicky here, but Ukraine did not quite succeed a defunct state. It is a continuation of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was a constituent republic of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It voted to secede from the USSR on 1 December 1991, with the Belavezha Accords—where the Soviet Union/Russia declaring the dissolution of the USSR—being signed a week later.

Basically, when Ukraine declared independence, the Soviet Union was a legal entity that existed, though obviously highly dysfunctional, or even existing solely in name.


I'll be even more nitpicky and say that all the former Soviet republics are successor states to the USSR, except the Baltic states who've attempted to implement a theory of restitutio ad integrum that's been mostly successful. Exactly when they became independent doesn't matter.

Russia is both successor and the continuance of the USSR. Ukraine is a successor of the USSR and the Ukrainian SSR, and the continuance of the Ukrainian SSR, which I suppose is more accurately described as a quasi-state although it's certainly defunct.

Since succession and continuance are largely matters of customary law, thirty years of consistent and unanimous recognition of Russia as the continuance of the USSR trump most of the fairly silly arguments in this thread.

Ultimately these arguments are meaningless, because if there was sufficient political will the UNSC could simply eject Russia extralegally - there would be no practical difference between this and some uncertain legal justification. Who's going to stop them? International law professors?

But they have other considerations besides Ukraine and the costs of such an act are easily imagined and quite high.

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Juristonia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Juristonia » Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:16 am

Alternate Garza wrote:
Juristonia wrote:Newp.
Shit sucks, my electricity and grocery bills are going through the roof, and that's not looking to improve anytime soon, but the right thing to do is the right thing to do.


The government should provide emergency relief to those who are paying the price for this conflict, aka the working class, while the wealthy industrialists pocket the war profits.

Aye, but they won't, because they're dicks.
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Vistulange
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Vistulange » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:28 am

Dtn wrote:
Vistulange wrote:I am being a little nitpicky here, but Ukraine did not quite succeed a defunct state. It is a continuation of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was a constituent republic of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It voted to secede from the USSR on 1 December 1991, with the Belavezha Accords—where the Soviet Union/Russia declaring the dissolution of the USSR—being signed a week later.

Basically, when Ukraine declared independence, the Soviet Union was a legal entity that existed, though obviously highly dysfunctional, or even existing solely in name.


I'll be even more nitpicky and say that all the former Soviet republics are successor states to the USSR, except the Baltic states who've attempted to implement a theory of restitutio ad integrum that's been mostly successful. Exactly when they became independent doesn't matter.

Russia is both successor and the continuance of the USSR. Ukraine is a successor of the USSR and the Ukrainian SSR, and the continuance of the Ukrainian SSR, which I suppose is more accurately described as a quasi-state although it's certainly defunct.

Since succession and continuance are largely matters of customary law, thirty years of consistent and unanimous recognition of Russia as the continuance of the USSR trump most of the fairly silly arguments in this thread.

Ultimately these arguments are meaningless, because if there was sufficient political will the UNSC could simply eject Russia extralegally - there would be no practical difference between this and some uncertain legal justification. Who's going to stop them? International law professors?

But they have other considerations besides Ukraine and the costs of such an act are easily imagined and quite high.

Oh, absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly that the arcane "discussion" revolving around the ejection of the Russian Federation from the UNSC based off of some obscure, nitpicky corner of international law is utterly meaningless.
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Perikuresu
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Founded: Jan 02, 2021
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Postby Perikuresu » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:43 am

Considering that I've seen headlines about Italy potentially being run by "far-right" parties/candidates, do y'all think Italy and whoever their new President will be are gonna be moles when it comes to Ukraine, just like Orban and Hungary is right now
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:47 am

Perikuresu wrote:Considering that I've seen headlines about Italy potentially being run by "far-right" parties/candidates, do y'all think Italy and whoever their new President will be are gonna be moles when it comes to Ukraine, just like Orban and Hungary is right now

Isn't Orban prattling on about race mixing these days while being terminally addicted to Russian blood money
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Perikuresu
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Postby Perikuresu » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:49 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Perikuresu wrote:Considering that I've seen headlines about Italy potentially being run by "far-right" parties/candidates, do y'all think Italy and whoever their new President will be are gonna be moles when it comes to Ukraine, just like Orban and Hungary is right now

Isn't Orban prattling on about race mixing these days while being terminally addicted to Russian blood money

Hungary's foreign minister visited Moscow to discuss about gas supply, that's what I meant by mole
A Pacific nation or a MT liberalwank nation whose main premise is composed on a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities
NS Stats looked at Nightmarchers and died- Read my factbooks (NS Policies are canon though)
I comment on F7 way too much
Aerilia is lying! They're not a unicorn, they're a Welsh Dragon!

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:50 am

Perikuresu wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Isn't Orban prattling on about race mixing these days while being terminally addicted to Russian blood money

Hungary's foreign minister visited Moscow to discuss about gas supply, that's what I meant by mole

Ukraine should totally close the border to co-belligerent in all but name Hungary lmao

Seriously though, what does NATO and Ukraine gain from letting Russian blood money flow unhindered to and from NATO member Hungary?
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Perikuresu
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Postby Perikuresu » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:57 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Ukraine should totally close the border to co-belligerent in all but name Hungary lmao

Seriously though, what does NATO and Ukraine gain from letting Russian blood money flow unhindered to and from NATO member Hungary?

I mean, in earlier years before Orban was elected, probably another member which would mean more soldiers to deploy perhaps? Otherwise, NATO can't really kick anyone out unless they have a clause (on a side tangent, even with a clause, Turkey is way too valuable geographically to be kicked out, Hungary has what? Closer roads to Romania from Berlin?)
A Pacific nation or a MT liberalwank nation whose main premise is composed on a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities
NS Stats looked at Nightmarchers and died- Read my factbooks (NS Policies are canon though)
I comment on F7 way too much
Aerilia is lying! They're not a unicorn, they're a Welsh Dragon!

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Port Caverton
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Port Caverton » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:01 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Perikuresu wrote:Hungary's foreign minister visited Moscow to discuss about gas supply, that's what I meant by mole

Ukraine should totally close the border to co-belligerent in all but name Hungary lmao

Seriously though, what does NATO and Ukraine gain from letting Russian blood money flow unhindered to and from NATO member Hungary?

Wouldn't it be just easier to give a free vacation in Gitmo to Orban and replace him with someone else?
Last edited by Port Caverton on Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Perikuresu
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Postby Perikuresu » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:04 am

Port Caverton wrote:Wouldn't it be just easier to give a free vacation in Gitmo to Orban and replace him with someone else?

1. Unfeasible(?)
2. Wouldn't be a good look, NATO would look like backstabbers
3. Further inflame tensions around the region
4. Orban got re-elected, the West would look like hypocrites if we overthrew a democratically elected leader (who from what ik for now, hasn't rigged the vote)
A Pacific nation or a MT liberalwank nation whose main premise is composed on a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities
NS Stats looked at Nightmarchers and died- Read my factbooks (NS Policies are canon though)
I comment on F7 way too much
Aerilia is lying! They're not a unicorn, they're a Welsh Dragon!

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Ifreann
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:04 am

Port Caverton wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Ukraine should totally close the border to co-belligerent in all but name Hungary lmao

Seriously though, what does NATO and Ukraine gain from letting Russian blood money flow unhindered to and from NATO member Hungary?

Wouldn't it be just easier to give a free vacation in Gitmo to Orban and replace him with someone else?

This might be the worst "hurr durr gitmo" idea you've had yet.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:11 am

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... 323197.jpg
So out of these four
Nordstream might as well be dead. The Polish route should be dead since Poland doesn't want to pay for fuel in an useless currency. The only ones left are Greece and... the Slovakian-Ukrainian border.
Are the Slovaks being Putin shills like their southern neighbour? <.<

also isn't Ukraine holding a third of Russia's fossil fuel balls in its hands here
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Thomasi
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Ex-Nation

Postby Thomasi » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:53 am

I wonder if Ukraine will switch to the Latin Alphabet after this war to distance it's self from Russia.

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Port Caverton
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Port Caverton » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:54 am

Thomasi wrote:I wonder if Ukraine will switch to the Latin Alphabet after this war to distance it's self from Russia.

Why would they do that though?
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PhilTech
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Postby PhilTech » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:56 am

Thomasi wrote:I wonder if Ukraine will switch to the Latin Alphabet after this war to distance it's self from Russia.

Latin is now considered a dead language.
-------------------------------------------------------------- ☢ EMBRACE TOXICITY, EMBRACE CORRUPTION ☢ -----------------------------------------------------------------
.....☣ BE PART OF THE GLORIOUS EVOLUTION ☣................THE CHURCH OF THE GLORIOUS EVOLVED.....................THE AUGMENTATION CLINIC.........................

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:57 am

PhilTech wrote:
Thomasi wrote:I wonder if Ukraine will switch to the Latin Alphabet after this war to distance it's self from Russia.

Latin is now considered a dead language.


The Latin alphabet, however, is not. You're using a slightly larger form of it right now.
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PhilTech
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Postby PhilTech » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:58 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
PhilTech wrote:Latin is now considered a dead language.


The Latin alphabet, however, is not. You're using a slightly larger form of it right now.

Oh, I see.
-------------------------------------------------------------- ☢ EMBRACE TOXICITY, EMBRACE CORRUPTION ☢ -----------------------------------------------------------------
.....☣ BE PART OF THE GLORIOUS EVOLUTION ☣................THE CHURCH OF THE GLORIOUS EVOLVED.....................THE AUGMENTATION CLINIC.........................

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:59 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
PhilTech wrote:Latin is now considered a dead language.


The Latin alphabet, however, is not. You're using a slightly larger form of it right now.

Slightly larger Latin alphabet

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Thomasi
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Postby Thomasi » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:00 am

PhilTech wrote:
Thomasi wrote:I wonder if Ukraine will switch to the Latin Alphabet after this war to distance it's self from Russia.

Latin is now considered a dead language.


You do know we are typing in the Latin Alphabet right?

Port Caverton wrote:
Thomasi wrote:I wonder if Ukraine will switch to the Latin Alphabet after this war to distance it's self from Russia.

Why would they do that though?


Because it would be possibly the clearest "We want Europe" signal they could send.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:02 am

Thomasi wrote:
PhilTech wrote:Latin is now considered a dead language.


You do know we are typing in the Latin Alphabet right?

Port Caverton wrote:Why would they do that though?


Because it would be possibly the clearest "We want Europe" signal they could send.

Nothing says "We want Europe" like abandoning your own cultural identity. Maybe they'll drop their language in favour of English while they're at it.

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Port Caverton
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Postby Port Caverton » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:04 am

Thomasi wrote:
PhilTech wrote:Latin is now considered a dead language.


You do know we are typing in the Latin Alphabet right?

Port Caverton wrote:Why would they do that though?


Because it would be possibly the clearest "We want Europe" signal they could send.

Bulgaria is in the EU and uses the Cyrillic script.

So why would they need to change to the Latin one?
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Thomasi
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Postby Thomasi » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:06 am

Port Caverton wrote:
Thomasi wrote:
You do know we are typing in the Latin Alphabet right?



Because it would be possibly the clearest "We want Europe" signal they could send.

Bulgaria is in the EU and uses the Cyrillic script.

So why would they need to change to the Latin one?


Note I'm saying they should or shouldn't I was posting a question.

It's just Cyrilic is currently seen as the "Russian" Alphabet. So I was wondering it we will see that become a political hot topic in a few years in Ukraine.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:07 am

Thomasi wrote:
Port Caverton wrote:Bulgaria is in the EU and uses the Cyrillic script.

So why would they need to change to the Latin one?


Note I'm saying they should or shouldn't I was posting a question.

It's just Cyrilic is currently seen as the "Russian" Alphabet. So I was wondering it we will see that become a political hot topic in a few years in Ukraine.

I doubt it's seen that way by Ukrainians.

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PhilTech
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Postby PhilTech » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:14 am

Thomasi wrote:You do know we are typing in the Latin Alphabet right?

Nope. I know that it is called "The Roman Alphabet", which I also realized by now that it's the same as Latin Alphabet.

So thanks for the info.
-------------------------------------------------------------- ☢ EMBRACE TOXICITY, EMBRACE CORRUPTION ☢ -----------------------------------------------------------------
.....☣ BE PART OF THE GLORIOUS EVOLUTION ☣................THE CHURCH OF THE GLORIOUS EVOLVED.....................THE AUGMENTATION CLINIC.........................

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:25 am

Thomasi wrote:
Port Caverton wrote:Bulgaria is in the EU and uses the Cyrillic script.

So why would they need to change to the Latin one?


Note I'm saying they should or shouldn't I was posting a question.

It's just Cyrilic is currently seen as the "Russian" Alphabet. So I was wondering it we will see that become a political hot topic in a few years in Ukraine.

It's the Kyivan Rus alphabet.

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