Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Sordhau]

Russia closes offices of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, as well as 13 other foreign organisations.

Link?

Not surprising, ofc, but need a link.

[Amnesty International]

Russia closes offices of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, as well as 13 other foreign organisations.

It is decided then. Launch the nukes.

[Gravlen]

Russia closes offices of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, as well as 13 other foreign organisations.

Link?

Not surprising, ofc, but need a link.

No problem, here you go

Guardian live feed

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

[Novus America]

Gorbachev was a die hard socialist, which is why he failed when the far more pragmatic Deng succeeded.
(well economically at least, the Warsaw Pact, the nationality problem, the oversized military (you no when I of all people say your military is oversized you have an issue) were not problems Deng had).

Gorbachev tried to make the self sufficient government owned corporations but retained strict price controls and a government monopoly on raw materials.

If a widget requires 1 unit of aluminum to make, you can only buy that from one source for 10, but have to sell it for 5, and you get no monetary subsidies. How does that even work? Of course it does not and did not. His weird attempt at market socialism was the problem, not capitalism per se.

Gorbachev was trying to reform socialism, not introduce capitalism.

Deng rather gradually liberalized prices while slowly spinning off state assets into a combination of private and state owned corporations which where not expected to be fully profitable right away, and rather got significant subsidies and protections.

Deng ironically at least in part used Hamilton, List, and the American School/American system (which is not the post modern neoliberalism that plagued the US from the 1970s onward with disastrous results) as inspiration.

Of course Deng’s approach led to the zombie company issue later but still, it was definitely a more effective approach.
Deng despite his problems and brutality was actually smart. Gorbachev was actually quite willing to be brutal (ordered several massacres) but he was an idiot.

There is irony here though, you criticizing socialists claiming the Soviet Union was not socialist, saying it is a “no true socialist” argument, while claiming not true socialist against Gorbachev.

My man, when you let McDonald's open up a shop right there in Moscow you officially cease to be a Socialist. End of.

I mean if you assume letting a little private sector activity in limited sectors ceasing to be socialist, then Lenin ceased to be socialist that makes most of the Soviet bloc not socialist.

Most allowed a little tightly controlled, limited private sector activities at various points. As well as some imports from non socialist countries.

The issue is that you disagree with Gorbachev’s version of socialism, to claim he is not a socialist, which is the same complaint you made against others.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

I don't have them on hand at the moment but there's a lot of photos of this floating around and some of them are eerily reminiscent of the Highway of Death. It does not appear to have been an orderly retreat.

[Thermodolia]

Gorbachev was a die hard socialist, which is why he failed when the far more pragmatic Deng succeeded.
(well economically at least, the Warsaw Pact, the nationality problem, the oversized military (you no when I of all people say your military is oversized you have an issue) were not problems Deng had).

Gorbachev tried to make the self sufficient government owned corporations but retained strict price controls and a government monopoly on raw materials.

If a widget requires 1 unit of aluminum to make, you can only buy that from one source for 10, but have to sell it for 5, and you get no monetary subsidies. How does that even work? Of course it does not and did not. His weird attempt at market socialism was the problem, not capitalism per se.

Gorbachev was trying to reform socialism, not introduce capitalism.

Deng rather gradually liberalized prices while slowly spinning off state assets into a combination of private and state owned corporations which where not expected to be fully profitable right away, and rather got significant subsidies and protections.

Deng ironically at least in part used Hamilton, List, and the American School/American system (which is not the post modern neoliberalism that plagued the US from the 1970s onward with disastrous results) as inspiration.

Of course Deng’s approach led to the zombie company issue later but still, it was definitely a more effective approach.
Deng despite his problems and brutality was actually smart. Gorbachev was actually quite willing to be brutal (ordered several massacres) but he was an idiot.

There is irony here though, you criticizing socialists claiming the Soviet Union was not socialist, saying it is a “no true socialist” argument, while claiming not true socialist against Gorbachev.

My man, when you let McDonald's open up a shop right there in Moscow you officially cease to be a Socialist. End of.

That’s a silly definition especially when market socialism exists

[The Reformed American Republic]

My man, when you let McDonald's open up a shop right there in Moscow you officially cease to be a Socialist. End of.

That’s a silly definition especially when market socialism exists

Liberal socialists (Not Liberals, they're capitalist) would also tolerate some private businesses existing, even though most of the economy would be commonly owned.

[Latorik]

War crimes should not be paid with more war crimes

In an ideal world, I would agree with you 100%.

That said, I'm not sure if most of the "soldiers" who have committed war crimes and other crimes against humanity would even face trial, let alone be sentenced. I am very skeptical that any of the higher-ups in the Russian government and military will ever face justice for their crimes against humanity, barring extraordinary rendition like what was done to Eichmann.

If it's unlikely that that they'd be adequately punished for the crimes they have committed, and if it's unlikely that they will even be tried in the first place (which IMO seems very likely), then it would not be surprising if people took matters into their own hands, as was the case with the Georgian Legion and those prisoners of war.

So long as they don't take revenge against Russian civilians for what Russian "soldiers" did to Ukrainian civilians, but instead restrict their revenge to only the "soldiers," Ukrainian revenge for Russian crimes against humanity is a-ok in my books.

I'm sorry but that opens the floodgates to all kinds of human rights abuses

war crimes do not become okay when it just so happens they're performed by YOUR side

[Azania-]

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

This is just terrifying to think about.

[Adamede]

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

I don't have them on hand at the moment but there's a lot of photos of this floating around and some of them are eerily reminiscent of the Highway of Death. It does not appear to have been an orderly retreat.

Medieval routs rarely are.

[Utquiagvik]

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

This is just terrifying to think about.

It feels like we are watching World War 2 happen in modern times.

[The North Polish Union]

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

This is just terrifying to think about.

Ethnic cleansing in Ukraine, Georgia, and Chechnia. And that's just the Russian Federation! Simply a list for the communist and tsarist empires would be an absolute textwall.

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

Link?

Not surprising, ofc, but need a link.

No problem, here you go

Guardian live feed

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

What in God's name is wrong with the Russians?!

This is basically Nazi Germany or USSR tactics.

The Nazis deported Ukrainians and sold them into slavery, the Soviets did the same to the gulags.

Now I am 100% in favor of sending troops (no nukes, think Desert Storm, fire some anti-ground missiles, blow up vehicles, help Ukraine assert sovereignty, leave).

[Continental Free States]

What in God's name is wrong with the Russians?!

This is basically Nazi Germany or USSR tactics.

The Nazis deported Ukrainians and sold them into slavery, the Soviets did the same to the gulags.

"Forced deportations" into their own territories (usually as part of an ongoing ethnic cleansing/genocide campaign) has been doctrine for the Russians for at least two centuries at this point.

[Utquiagvik]

No problem, here you go

Guardian live feed

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

What in God's name is wrong with the Russians?!

This is basically Nazi Germany or USSR tactics.

The Nazis deported Ukrainians and sold them into slavery, the Soviets did the same to the gulags.

Now I am 100% in favor of sending troops (no nukes, think Desert Storm, fire some anti-ground missiles, blow up vehicles, help Ukraine assert sovereignty, leave).

NATO should just intervene at this point. Civilians are being raped and murdered by the hundreds and we aren't doing anything about it. NATO would easily be able to push Russia right out of Ukraine. If we don't intervene, then we are just letting people die. Maybe we can even take out Putin while were at it.

[Continental Free States]

NATO should just intervene at this point. Civilians are being raped and murdered by the hundreds and we aren't doing anything about it. NATO would easily be able to push Russia right out of Ukraine. If we don't intervene, then we are just letting people die. Maybe we can even take out Putin while were at it.

No but you see if NATO waits for Russia to invade NATO countries at a time Russia believes it has the military readiness to do so they will somehow prevent the nuclear war that would happen if they intervened to stop a literal ongoing genocide.

[Kalaron]

No problem, here you go

Guardian live feed

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

What in God's name is wrong with the Russians?!

This is basically Nazi Germany or USSR tactics.

The Nazis deported Ukrainians and sold them into slavery, the Soviets did the same to the gulags.

Now I am 100% in favor of sending troops (no nukes, think Desert Storm, fire some anti-ground missiles, blow up vehicles, help Ukraine assert sovereignty, leave).

And what happens, praytell, when a couple hundred US troops wind up dead? Do you think the US would just go home?

[Novus America]

In an ideal world, I would agree with you 100%.

That said, I'm not sure if most of the "soldiers" who have committed war crimes and other crimes against humanity would even face trial, let alone be sentenced. I am very skeptical that any of the higher-ups in the Russian government and military will ever face justice for their crimes against humanity, barring extraordinary rendition like what was done to Eichmann.

If it's unlikely that that they'd be adequately punished for the crimes they have committed, and if it's unlikely that they will even be tried in the first place (which IMO seems very likely), then it would not be surprising if people took matters into their own hands, as was the case with the Georgian Legion and those prisoners of war.

So long as they don't take revenge against Russian civilians for what Russian "soldiers" did to Ukrainian civilians, but instead restrict their revenge to only the "soldiers," Ukrainian revenge for Russian crimes against humanity is a-ok in my books.

I'm sorry but that opens the floodgates to all kinds of human rights abuses

war crimes do not become okay when it just so happens they're performed by YOUR side

Yes. I understand WHY some Ukrainians have killed Russian POWs. If I was a Ukrainian soldier I would probably be tempted to do so, despite knowing it would be wrong. The sheer fury many Ukrainians have towards the utter depravity and senseless brutality of Russia’s invasion forces is wholly understandable.

But that does not make the action right.
Voluntary manslaughter is still a crime, if not as heinous of one as unprovoked murder.

Although it also not always clear what Russian forces we are dealing with given the fragmented nature.
Russian conscripts should be given POW status if they surrender.

I must say I doubt I would have ANY toleration towards or mercy towards Kadyrovtsy or Wagnerites at all.
I must say I would probably shoot them on sight, surrendered or not.
And it is not clear they morally or legally deserve the same protections.

I still cannot say it is right. But it is almost certainly what I would do regardless. My self control is not perfect.

Even though simply being a member of those groups should be itself a war crime, they still deserve trial.
But I understand why the average Ukrainian soldier might decide to take matters into their own hands.

[Cosmic79]

This is just terrifying to think about.

Ethnic cleansing in Ukraine, Georgia, and Chechnia. And that's just the Russian Federation! Simply a list for the communist and tsarist empires would be an absolute textwall.

They'll be back in the future. There's no doubt about that. Maybe Kazakhstan will be next if they show signs of separation. History shows that Russia has never stopped being an aggressive invader.

[New Baltenstein]

I don't have them on hand at the moment but there's a lot of photos of this floating around and some of them are eerily reminiscent of the Highway of Death. It does not appear to have been an orderly retreat.

I doubt they actually had the fuel capacities to turn the entire convoy around.

No problem, here you go

Guardian live feed

Also from the feed:

Russian troops have “forcibly deported” more than 600,000 Ukrainians, including about 121,000 children, to Russia, Ukraine’s human rights commissioner, Lyudmila Denysova, said. Denysova also said residents of the temporarily occupied city of Izyum in the Kharkiv region are being forcibly moved to Russia.

Russian forces abandoned “a lot” of tanks, vehicles, and artillery in a “hasty” withdrawal from northern Ukraine that may be a sign of a “collapse of the will to fight”, according to a western official. The official confirmed that there are no longer Russian units in northern Ukraine.

What in God's name is wrong with the Russians?!

This is basically Nazi Germany or USSR tactics.

The Nazis deported Ukrainians and sold them into slavery, the Soviets did the same to the gulags.

Now I am 100% in favor of sending troops (no nukes, think Desert Storm, fire some anti-ground missiles, blow up vehicles, help Ukraine assert sovereignty, leave).

It honestly wouldn't surprise them me anymore if they are actually being herded into concentration camps. It would depress and sicken me, but not surprise me.

[Chan Island]

Russia closes offices of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, as well as 13 other foreign organisations.

Ah, yes, the universal symbol that everything is perfectly rational in your country- kicking out Amnesty International.

Fucking hell, Putin really is on that reincarnation of Hitler speedrun, isn’t he? At this rate I might end up supporting military intervention to stop this madness.

[Antipatros]

Russia closes offices of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, as well as 13 other foreign organisations.

Ah, yes, the universal symbol that everything is perfectly rational in your country- kicking out Amnesty International.

Fucking hell, Putin really is on that reincarnation of Hitler speedrun, isn’t he? At this rate I might end up supporting military intervention to stop this madness.

If nuclear weapons weren't involved, I probably would support an intervention (with the goal of ejecting Russia from Ukraine, which would then be added to NATO)

That's not the world we live in, though. We should do what we can: provide support to Ukraine, decouple our economies from Russia, assess/boost our military readiness, and keep lines of communication open with the Kremlin.

[Chan Island]

Ah, yes, the universal symbol that everything is perfectly rational in your country- kicking out Amnesty International.

Fucking hell, Putin really is on that reincarnation of Hitler speedrun, isn’t he? At this rate I might end up supporting military intervention to stop this madness.

If nuclear weapons weren't involved, I probably would support an intervention (with the goal of ejecting Russia from Ukraine, which would then be added to NATO)

That's not the world we live in, though. We should do what we can: provide support to Ukraine, decouple our economies from Russia, assess/boost our military readiness, and keep lines of communication open with the Kremlin.

I’ve said it before, if nukes didn’t exist I’d fully support intervention by now.

Yet, even despite the existence of nuclear weapons, the risk may end up being outweighed by the atrocities. Ethnic cleansing, genocide and massacres on this scale, right on the borders of 4 NATO members, is just completely unacceptable. In the 90s, the west intervened after Serbian militias killed over 8000 people in one day in Srebrenica, despite the risks. I shudder to imagine the scale of atrocity where that logic comes into play again, but these reports of forcibly deporting hundreds of thousands in blatant ethnic cleansing is certainly not step 1 on that path.

[Luziyca]

In an ideal world, I would agree with you 100%.

That said, I'm not sure if most of the "soldiers" who have committed war crimes and other crimes against humanity would even face trial, let alone be sentenced. I am very skeptical that any of the higher-ups in the Russian government and military will ever face justice for their crimes against humanity, barring extraordinary rendition like what was done to Eichmann.

If it's unlikely that that they'd be adequately punished for the crimes they have committed, and if it's unlikely that they will even be tried in the first place (which IMO seems very likely), then it would not be surprising if people took matters into their own hands, as was the case with the Georgian Legion and those prisoners of war.

So long as they don't take revenge against Russian civilians for what Russian "soldiers" did to Ukrainian civilians, but instead restrict their revenge to only the "soldiers," Ukrainian revenge for Russian crimes against humanity is a-ok in my books.

I'm sorry but that opens the floodgates to all kinds of human rights abuses

war crimes do not become okay when it just so happens they're performed by YOUR side

As I said many times before, and will say many times after, if my side committed war crimes against civilians of the opposing side, I would oppose it. It would not matter if the civilians come from a country whose government has committed crimes against humanity or not, because war crimes against any civilian is wrong.

However, if the opposing side did commit war crimes against my side, and harmed civilians in particular, I feel it would be just for revenge to be taken against these "soldiers," especially in circumstances where it is very unlikely that they will face trial for their crimes against humanity. And in this war, it is safe to say that even if Ukraine delivers a complete military victory against Russia, I am not sure if the current government in Russia would ever permit war criminals on their side to face trial for their crimes.

[Chan Island]

I'm sorry but that opens the floodgates to all kinds of human rights abuses

war crimes do not become okay when it just so happens they're performed by YOUR side

As I said many times before, and will say many times after, if my side committed war crimes against civilians of the opposing side, I would oppose it. It would not matter if the civilians come from a country whose government has committed crimes against humanity or not, because war crimes against any civilian is wrong.

However, if the opposing side did commit war crimes against my side, and harmed civilians in particular, I feel it would be just for revenge to be taken against these "soldiers," especially in circumstances where it is very unlikely that they will face trial for their crimes against humanity. And in this war, it is safe to say that even if Ukraine delivers a complete military victory against Russia, I am not sure if the current government in Russia would ever permit war criminals on their side to face trial for their crimes.

Okay, but that still means that your side risks losing the moral high ground, one of Ukraine’s greatest assets in this war. If people become disgusted with Ukraine’s behaviour and turn on them, they will lose, point blank.

As I have said before, the rules of war exist because there are active, military advantages to complying with them, otherwise they wouldn’t be government policy. Violate them at your peril.