Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Sejny]

Remember Sergei Beseda, head of the FSB's 5th Service, who misled Putin with his faulty intel? He got transferred to the infamous Lefortovo Prison.

I see Putin took lessons from Kim Jong Un in imprisoning his cronies.

The Kims took lessons from Putin's predecessors on that exact topic. It seems its all a cycle up there in north Asia.

-The North Polish Union

[Sordhau]

Remember Sergei Beseda, head of the FSB's 5th Service, who misled Putin with his faulty intel? He got transferred to the infamous Lefortovo Prison.

I see Putin took lessons from Kim Jong Un in imprisoning his cronies.

Until he blows up his own uncle with an artillery piece he hasn't learned shit smh.

[Rusozak]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

[Ifreann]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

The better tomorrow fascists hope for is one of tyranny and atrocities.

[Utquiagvik]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

If Russia had continued with Gorbachev-like leadership after the fall of the Soviet Union, then the entire war with Ukraine would have never happened. Putin has trouble accepting the reality that Ukraine is independent and should remain that way. If Russia had a leader like Gorbachev, then that leader would be completely fine with Ukraine being independent. Luckily, Putin's Military has become a complete joke at this point, and the chance of Putin actually winning this war is pretty low.

[Deblar]

About 30 people killed in Russian strike on a packed train station in eastern Ukraine

About 30 people have been killed after a Russian missile hit a train station in Eastern Ukraine, according to the Ukrainian government.

In a statement, Pavlo Kyrylenko, the head of the Donetsk Regional Military Administration, said the station was full of people trying to evacuate when it was allegedly hit by a missile. In his statement, Krylenko says the missile, an Iskander, was loaded with cluster munitions. NPR has not been able to verify that independently.

Photos shared by Krylenko show the station on fire and bloodied bodies strewn amid abandoned luggage.

The Kremlin and the Russian Ministry of Defense deny any involvement in the attack.

Ukraine says Russian troops have retreated from the capital region and are regrouping in Belarus, and will move on Eastern Ukraine soon.

When those attacks begin, regional authorities warn, civilians may not have a chance to flee, so they have been urging civilians in Donbas and Kharkiv regions to evacuate. From the beginning of this conflict, trains have been used to carry millions of Ukrainians out of country.

In his own statement, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said rescue workers were on the scene and that more than 100 people were injured. "This is an evil that has no limits," he said. "And if it is not punished it will never stop."

[Sejny]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

Ending genocidal states is never a mistake. Replacing them with a weakened but still genocidal state could be viewed as a moderate improvement to the incredibly limited extent that any genocidal state can be considered an improvement over another.

The best option is what the French wanted to do at Versailles, which is regrettably not what we got.

-The North Polish Union

[Sordhau]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

Capitalism. They regressed toward capitalism.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

If Russia had continued with Gorbachev-like leadership after the fall of the Soviet Union, then the entire war with Ukraine would have never happened. Putin has trouble accepting the reality that Ukraine is independent and should remain that way. If Russia had a leader like Gorbachev, then that leader would be completely fine with Ukraine being independent. Luckily, Putin's Military has become a complete joke at this point, and the chance of Putin actually winning this war is pretty low.

Russia did continue with a Gorbachev-like leadership after the dissolution of the USSR. Gorbachev was a Capitalist. He brought capitalism to Russia. The same Capitalism Yeltsin used to pillage his country. The same Capitalism Putin uses to terrorize and pillage his country, and that of other countries.

[Perikuresu]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

I think Gorbachev was trying to prevent the fall of the USSR, however hardline communists didn't like his reforms, and politicians like Yeltsin jumped at the opportunity to grasp power were part of the reasons why it did ultimately collapse (plus decades of overspending on the military)

[Utquiagvik]

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

Capitalism. They regressed toward capitalism.

If Russia had continued with Gorbachev-like leadership after the fall of the Soviet Union, then the entire war with Ukraine would have never happened. Putin has trouble accepting the reality that Ukraine is independent and should remain that way. If Russia had a leader like Gorbachev, then that leader would be completely fine with Ukraine being independent. Luckily, Putin's Military has become a complete joke at this point, and the chance of Putin actually winning this war is pretty low.

Russia did continue with a Gorbachev-like leadership after the dissolution of the USSR. Gorbachev was a Capitalist. He brought capitalism to Russia. The same Capitalism Yeltsin used to pillage his country. The same Capitalism Putin uses to terrorize and pillage his country, and that of other countries.

They do have the same system, but i wish they had a less corrupt leader overall. Yes, Gorbachev was a capitalist, just like Putin, but he wasnt a paranoid sociopath like Putin. Gorbachev wanted to make a more democratic Soviet Union and even allowed countries to break away from the Soviet Union. Putin keeps the nation under a dictator rule, and he wants the Post-Soviet nations to be part of Russia.

[Sejny]

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

If Russia had continued with Gorbachev-like leadership after the fall of the Soviet Union, then the entire war with Ukraine would have never happened. Putin has trouble accepting the reality that Ukraine is independent and should remain that way. If Russia had a leader like Gorbachev, then that leader would be completely fine with Ukraine being independent. Luckily, Putin's Military has become a complete joke at this point, and the chance of Putin actually winning this war is pretty low.

The only redeeming factor of Gorby was his incompetence limited his ability for ethnic violence. He definitely tried his hardest to stoke ethnic tensions in the Caucasus and is partly responsible for the continuing instability there today.

-NPU

[Chan Island]

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

Ending totalitarian governments is never a mistake. It’s not always going to work, but some hope for improvement is always better than a guarantee of the totalitarianism continuing.

Sure, they might not have been as bad, but back in the 1980s there was no way of knowing for sure what would happen, and there was definitely a real chance of something good coming out of it. Just because it didn’t work doesn’t mean this current conflict and Putin’s fascism were preordained. Best to learn from the mistakes, apply those lessons, and hope for better next time.

As for believing in something… eh, debatable that one. Communist parties took over over 50 countries- by 1980 1 in 3 people alive were in communist countries. And every single one of them was some degree of totalitarian autocracy, if not an outright genocidal nightmare. Russia’s communists had 70 years to make their country into the planned Communist utopia- and it was a dictatorship throughout with no sign of intending to let up, save for the tepid liberalising moves that were forced upon them by economics.

The question of course is what to do now, and what lessons we learned from 1991 so that we don’t repeat the mistakes of our fathers.

[Sordhau]

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

I think Gorbachev was trying to prevent the fall of the USSR, however hardline communists didn't like his reforms, and politicians like Yeltsin jumped at the opportunity to grasp power were part of the reasons why it did ultimately collapse (plus decades of overspending on the military)

Gorbachev tried to preserve the USSR at the expense of the one thing that made the USSR what it was: Socialism.

It's perfectly understandable that many Communists in the Party didn't want to see all their hard work wasted by allowing the USSR to embrace the very ideology it was founded to oppose.

Capitalism. They regressed toward capitalism.



Russia did continue with a Gorbachev-like leadership after the dissolution of the USSR. Gorbachev was a Capitalist. He brought capitalism to Russia. The same Capitalism Yeltsin used to pillage his country. The same Capitalism Putin uses to terrorize and pillage his country, and that of other countries.

They do have the same system, but i wish they had a less corrupt leader overall. Yes, Gorbachev was a capitalist, just like Putin, but he wasnt a paranoid sociopath like Putin. Gorbachev wanted to make a more democratic Soviet Union and even allowed countries to break away from the Soviet Union. Putin keeps the nation under a dictator rule, and he wants the Post-Soviet nations to be part of Russia.

This issue is it doesn't matter how many Gorbachev you have. Gorbachev was a weak leader. His weakness led to Yeltsin, whose incompetence led to Putin and his ruthlessness. You can have 1,000 Gorbachevs in quick succession; there will always be a Yeltsin to take their place, and then a Putin to take his place.

We've already had several Gorbachevs and Yeltsins here in the States. It's only a matter of time before we get our own Putin.

[Tarsonis]

I'm beginning to think ending the Soviet Union was a mistake. They were also totalitarians with a record of human rights abuses, but it wasn't as bad in the 1980's, and at least they stood for something then. They had a cause to believe in towards making a better world even if it backfired horribly. Now Russia has regressed to dark age barbarianism where the only motive is spoils from pillaging and spite towards your enemies. All the tyranny and atrocities, none of the hope for a better tomorrow.

Capitalism. They regressed progressed toward capitalism.

ftfy

[Sordhau]

Capitalism. They regressed progressed toward capitalism.

ftfy

Tfw you're in such a hurry to snub someone on the Internet that you fuck up the quotes lmao

[Tarsonis]

Capitalism. They regressed progressed toward capitalism.

ftfy

Tfw you're in such a hurry to snub someone on the Internet that you fuck up the quotes lmao

Tfw you have no real counter so you go for the post to pitifully claim a false victory. How very Soviet of you.

[Ifreann]

Tfw you're in such a hurry to snub someone on the Internet that you fuck up the quotes lmao

Tfw you have no real counter so you go for the post to pitifully claim a false victory. How very Soviet of you.

That very well known Soviet trait of...claiming false victories?

[Tarsonis]

Tfw you have no real counter so you go for the post to pitifully claim a false victory. How very Soviet of you.

That very well known Soviet trait of...claiming false victories?

willful ignorance is up there too. Thanks for adding

[Novus America]

I think Gorbachev was trying to prevent the fall of the USSR, however hardline communists didn't like his reforms, and politicians like Yeltsin jumped at the opportunity to grasp power were part of the reasons why it did ultimately collapse (plus decades of overspending on the military)

Gorbachev tried to preserve the USSR at the expense of the one thing that made the USSR what it was: Socialism.

It's perfectly understandable that many Communists in the Party didn't want to see all their hard work wasted by allowing the USSR to embrace the very ideology it was founded to oppose.

They do have the same system, but i wish they had a less corrupt leader overall. Yes, Gorbachev was a capitalist, just like Putin, but he wasnt a paranoid sociopath like Putin. Gorbachev wanted to make a more democratic Soviet Union and even allowed countries to break away from the Soviet Union. Putin keeps the nation under a dictator rule, and he wants the Post-Soviet nations to be part of Russia.

This issue is it doesn't matter how many Gorbachev you have. Gorbachev was a weak leader. His weakness led to Yeltsin, whose incompetence led to Putin and his ruthlessness. You can have 1,000 Gorbachevs in quick succession; there will always be a Yeltsin to take their place, and then a Putin to take his place.

We've already had several Gorbachevs and Yeltsins here in the States. It's only a matter of time before we get our own Putin.

Gorbachev was a die hard socialist, which is why he failed when the far more pragmatic Deng succeeded.
(well economically at least, the Warsaw Pact, the nationality problem, the oversized military (you no when I of all people say your military is oversized you have an issue) were not problems Deng had).

Gorbachev tried to make the self sufficient government owned corporations but retained strict price controls and a government monopoly on raw materials.

If a widget requires 1 unit of aluminum to make, you can only buy that from one source for 10, but have to sell it for 5, and you get no monetary subsidies. How does that even work? Of course it does not and did not. His weird attempt at market socialism was the problem, not capitalism per se.

Gorbachev was trying to reform socialism, not introduce capitalism.

Deng rather gradually liberalized prices while slowly spinning off state assets into a combination of private and state owned corporations which where not expected to be fully profitable right away, and rather got significant subsidies and protections.

Deng ironically at least in part used Hamilton, List, and the American School/American system (which is not the post modern neoliberalism that plagued the US from the 1970s onward with disastrous results) as inspiration.

Of course Deng’s approach led to the zombie company issue later but still, it was definitely a more effective approach.
Deng despite his problems and brutality was actually smart. Gorbachev was actually quite willing to be brutal (ordered several massacres) but he was an idiot.

There is irony here though, you criticizing socialists claiming the Soviet Union was not socialist, saying it is a “no true socialist” argument, while claiming not true socialist against Gorbachev.

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

About 30 people killed in Russian strike on a packed train station in eastern Ukraine

About 30 people have been killed after a Russian missile hit a train station in Eastern Ukraine, according to the Ukrainian government.

In a statement, Pavlo Kyrylenko, the head of the Donetsk Regional Military Administration, said the station was full of people trying to evacuate when it was allegedly hit by a missile. In his statement, Krylenko says the missile, an Iskander, was loaded with cluster munitions. NPR has not been able to verify that independently.

Photos shared by Krylenko show the station on fire and bloodied bodies strewn amid abandoned luggage.

The Kremlin and the Russian Ministry of Defense deny any involvement in the attack.

Ukraine says Russian troops have retreated from the capital region and are regrouping in Belarus, and will move on Eastern Ukraine soon.

When those attacks begin, regional authorities warn, civilians may not have a chance to flee, so they have been urging civilians in Donbas and Kharkiv regions to evacuate. From the beginning of this conflict, trains have been used to carry millions of Ukrainians out of country.

In his own statement, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said rescue workers were on the scene and that more than 100 people were injured. "This is an evil that has no limits," he said. "And if it is not punished it will never stop."

(Image)

That meme is a very apt description of the Russian Army. My father's old boss (who is a Belarusian Jew who escaped the USSR BTW) told me how his grandfather came home with a motorcycle and a bed stolen from Germany. He told me how the Red Army looted everything. Even an Opel car factory was taken by Russia and became the Pobeda (Victory) car company. Worst was when he said "Sadly, many of the babies born in Eastern Europe after the war were half-Russian." in reference to mass rape. Just goes to show that the Russian Army has a pretty bad, far-reaching history of war crimes. All they did was replace the oppressive evil of Nazi Germany with their own oppressive evil. They even re-opened concentration camps as gulags and the Soviets hated and killed Jews too. Only difference is the flag. (For reference, I am also Jewish and the part of my family that survived the Nazi concentration camps had all their property stolen by the Russians, hence why they all left Poland/Lithuania/Germany. My Ukrainian side left before the war, thankfully.)

[Tarsonis]

About 30 people killed in Russian strike on a packed train station in eastern Ukraine

About 30 people have been killed after a Russian missile hit a train station in Eastern Ukraine, according to the Ukrainian government.

In a statement, Pavlo Kyrylenko, the head of the Donetsk Regional Military Administration, said the station was full of people trying to evacuate when it was allegedly hit by a missile. In his statement, Krylenko says the missile, an Iskander, was loaded with cluster munitions. NPR has not been able to verify that independently.

Photos shared by Krylenko show the station on fire and bloodied bodies strewn amid abandoned luggage.

The Kremlin and the Russian Ministry of Defense deny any involvement in the attack.

Ukraine says Russian troops have retreated from the capital region and are regrouping in Belarus, and will move on Eastern Ukraine soon.

When those attacks begin, regional authorities warn, civilians may not have a chance to flee, so they have been urging civilians in Donbas and Kharkiv regions to evacuate. From the beginning of this conflict, trains have been used to carry millions of Ukrainians out of country.

In his own statement, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said rescue workers were on the scene and that more than 100 people were injured. "This is an evil that has no limits," he said. "And if it is not punished it will never stop."

(Image)

That meme is a very apt description of the Russian Army. My father's old boss (who is a Belarusian Jew who escaped the USSR BTW) told me how his grandfather came home with a motorcycle and a bed stolen from Germany. He told me how the Red Army looted everything. Even an Opel car factory was taken by Russia and became the Pobeda (Victory) car company. Worst was when he said "Sadly, many of the babies born in Eastern Europe after the war were half-Russian." in reference to mass rape. Just goes to show that the Russian Army has a pretty bad, far-reaching history of war crimes. All they did was replace the oppressive evil of Nazi Germany with their own oppressive evil. They even re-opened concentration camps as gulags and the Soviets hated and killed Jews too. Only difference is the flag. (For reference, I am also Jewish and the part of my family that survived the Nazi concentration camps had all their property stolen by the Russians, hence why they all left Poland/Lithuania/Germany. My Ukrainian side left before the war, thankfully.)

not the only difference. The antifascist go out of their way to defend or deny the atrocities of the Soviet Union, for no other reason than fascism bad communism good

[Sordhau]

Tfw you're in such a hurry to snub someone on the Internet that you fuck up the quotes lmao

Tfw you have no real counter so you go for the post to pitifully claim a false victory. How very Soviet of you.

I can't counter when you don't have an argument to counter lol.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Oh, well, in that case.

I wish that there were a significant Proletariat throughout the world. IMO, class-conscious Proletarians would not have fallen for Putin's BS.

[Sordhau]

Gorbachev tried to preserve the USSR at the expense of the one thing that made the USSR what it was: Socialism.

It's perfectly understandable that many Communists in the Party didn't want to see all their hard work wasted by allowing the USSR to embrace the very ideology it was founded to oppose.



This issue is it doesn't matter how many Gorbachev you have. Gorbachev was a weak leader. His weakness led to Yeltsin, whose incompetence led to Putin and his ruthlessness. You can have 1,000 Gorbachevs in quick succession; there will always be a Yeltsin to take their place, and then a Putin to take his place.

We've already had several Gorbachevs and Yeltsins here in the States. It's only a matter of time before we get our own Putin.

Gorbachev was a die hard socialist, which is why he failed when the far more pragmatic Deng succeeded.
(well economically at least, the Warsaw Pact, the nationality problem, the oversized military (you no when I of all people say your military is oversized you have an issue) were not problems Deng had).

Gorbachev tried to make the self sufficient government owned corporations but retained strict price controls and a government monopoly on raw materials.

If a widget requires 1 unit of aluminum to make, you can only buy that from one source for 10, but have to sell it for 5, and you get no monetary subsidies. How does that even work? Of course it does not and did not. His weird attempt at market socialism was the problem, not capitalism per se.

Gorbachev was trying to reform socialism, not introduce capitalism.

Deng rather gradually liberalized prices while slowly spinning off state assets into a combination of private and state owned corporations which where not expected to be fully profitable right away, and rather got significant subsidies and protections.

Deng ironically at least in part used Hamilton, List, and the American School/American system (which is not the post modern neoliberalism that plagued the US from the 1970s onward with disastrous results) as inspiration.

Of course Deng’s approach led to the zombie company issue later but still, it was definitely a more effective approach.
Deng despite his problems and brutality was actually smart. Gorbachev was actually quite willing to be brutal (ordered several massacres) but he was an idiot.

There is irony here though, you criticizing socialists claiming the Soviet Union was not socialist, saying it is a “no true socialist” argument, while claiming not true socialist against Gorbachev.

My man, when you let McDonald's open up a shop right there in Moscow you officially cease to be a Socialist. End of.

[Gravlen]

Russia closes offices of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, as well as 13 other foreign organisations.