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Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

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Diuhon
Diplomat
 
Posts: 711
Founded: Jan 05, 2022
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Diuhon » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:02 am

Gallia- wrote:
Diuhon wrote:The problem with running on and then trying to enact a platform of reconciliation when your deluded gloryhound of a neighbor is right next door chomping at every bit it can is that you tend to keep on pushing on solutions that won't work, even as you ramp up your military preparedness in the most inoffensive manner possible. But no use crying over this milk this spilt -- all that needs to be done now is to fuck Putin, smash the Russian military in Ukraine, fuck his authoritarianism, attack and occupy Russia as a prelude to a proper imposition of liberal democracy, and fuck authoritarianism.


Liberal interventionism is the Putinism of the West. It's the same brand of imperialistic moral universalism. It even looks identical when viewed up in action close! Russia and Ukraine need a mediator with an actual interest in a long-lasting peace, not one side taken to appeal to Ukrainian nationalists and the other side taken to appeal to Russian nationalists. The PRC and Israel are the obvious candidates here.

Long-lasting peace can be had if Putin stops agitating for its co-prosperity sphere of satellites mired in authoritarian penury.

Oh, and squint harder -- maybe next time you'll see a baobab.

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:08 am

If Russia were a liberal democracy it would probably invade Ukraine on the pretenses of toppling a corrupt oligarch regime and turning it into Estonia I guess. Because that's how liberal democracies be. "Democratization" would replace "deNazification" and "Operation Ukrainian Freedom" would replace "Operation Dnieper".

Russia's issues with Ukraine have nothing to do with politics, at least the systems, as they're both incredibly corrupt kleptocracies. One being a liberal democracy doesn't change the matters at hand, it would just change the excuses used to justify it. The issues are related to long-standing territorial concerns dating back to Khrushchev's era and the local rights of Crimean Russians foremost, with Donbas being something of a thing Russia really doesn't want and wants Ukraine to take back, and that have all just been exacerbated to varying degrees over the past 30 years.

The only real solution is to have a genuine neutral mediator, like Israel or PRC, come in with stakes in both sides and negotiate a long-lasting peace using its levers to pull its weight around. This is the least likely outcome.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:18 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Diuhon
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Founded: Jan 05, 2022
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Diuhon » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:17 am

Ukraine is not Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Please.

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Laka Strolistandiler
Senator
 
Posts: 4848
Founded: Jul 14, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:32 am

Archinstinct wrote:
Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Yes- and why almost no discussion of this massacre supposedly rivaling Katyn has taken place, given the nearly 4-day delay between first publications and Russians leaving the area


The answer to that is you probably got misinformation.

All right- you’ve got me now. God I wish I wasn’t spoon-fed Russian propaganda by people that I know.
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I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
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Page
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:37 am

Gallia- wrote:If Russia were a liberal democracy it would probably invade Ukraine on the pretenses of toppling a corrupt oligarch regime and turning it into Estonia I guess. Because that's how liberal democracies be. "Democratization" would replace "deNazification" and "Operation Ukrainian Freedom" would replace "Operation Dnieper".

Russia's issues with Ukraine have nothing to do with politics, at least the systems, as they're both incredibly corrupt kleptocracies. One being a liberal democracy doesn't change the matters at hand, it would just change the excuses used to justify it. The issues are related to long-standing territorial concerns dating back to Khrushchev's era and the local rights of Crimean Russians foremost, with Donbas being something of a thing Russia really doesn't want and wants Ukraine to take back, and that have all just been exacerbated to varying degrees over the past 30 years.

The only real solution is to have a genuine neutral mediator, like Israel or PRC, come in with stakes in both sides and negotiate a long-lasting peace using its levers to pull its weight around. This is the least likely outcome.


The PRC is nowhere close to neutral on the Russian invasion.
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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:38 am

Page wrote:
Gallia- wrote:If Russia were a liberal democracy it would probably invade Ukraine on the pretenses of toppling a corrupt oligarch regime and turning it into Estonia I guess. Because that's how liberal democracies be. "Democratization" would replace "deNazification" and "Operation Ukrainian Freedom" would replace "Operation Dnieper".

Russia's issues with Ukraine have nothing to do with politics, at least the systems, as they're both incredibly corrupt kleptocracies. One being a liberal democracy doesn't change the matters at hand, it would just change the excuses used to justify it. The issues are related to long-standing territorial concerns dating back to Khrushchev's era and the local rights of Crimean Russians foremost, with Donbas being something of a thing Russia really doesn't want and wants Ukraine to take back, and that have all just been exacerbated to varying degrees over the past 30 years.

The only real solution is to have a genuine neutral mediator, like Israel or PRC, come in with stakes in both sides and negotiate a long-lasting peace using its levers to pull its weight around. This is the least likely outcome.


The PRC is nowhere close to neutral on the Russian invasion.


It's the literal definition of "neutral" since it's complying with Western sanctions regimes and miffed at Russia.

If the PLA sent tank divisions to Kharkiv I guess it would stop being neutral but that isn't going to happen lol. It has too much to lose if Russia breaks all of Ukraine since it's a major thoroughfare for the OBOR and it's going to try to play USA and Germany against each other instead. Since USA and Germany have mutually opposed worldviews this will probably work to an extent.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Page
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:42 am

Gallia- wrote:
Page wrote:
The PRC is nowhere close to neutral on the Russian invasion.


It's the literal definition of "neutral" since it's complying with Western sanctions regimes and miffed at Russia.

If the PLA sent tank divisions to Kharkiv I guess it would stop being neutral but that isn't going to happen lol. It has too much to lose if Russia breaks all of Ukraine since it's a major thoroughfare for the OBOR and it's going to try to play USA and Germany against each other instead. Since USA and Germany have mutually opposed worldviews this will probably work to an extent.


Have you seen how Chinese state media covers this war? Their response to the Bucha massacre was basically "might have been a false flag that the Ukranians did themselves, either way it's all America's fault."
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Gallia-
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:45 am

Page wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
It's the literal definition of "neutral" since it's complying with Western sanctions regimes and miffed at Russia.

If the PLA sent tank divisions to Kharkiv I guess it would stop being neutral but that isn't going to happen lol. It has too much to lose if Russia breaks all of Ukraine since it's a major thoroughfare for the OBOR and it's going to try to play USA and Germany against each other instead. Since USA and Germany have mutually opposed worldviews this will probably work to an extent.


Have you seen how Chinese state media covers this war? Their response to the Bucha massacre was basically "might have been a false flag that the Ukranians did themselves, either way it's all America's fault."


Yes and I'm sure Fox News is saying the same thing.

The actual guys in charge are taking a very neutral tack: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/17/business ... index.html

China has extremely important political-economic interests in both Ukraine, since that is the gateway to Germany and France and Sweden, which are important industrial hubs in the European Union, and Russia, which supplies a lot of energy and wheat and fertilizer to it, among other things. The EU has a vested interest in wresting itself away from America because it wants the Euro to become a powerful currency to trade in baskets and not be shadowed by the dollar, which will help Europe become more prosperous in the future, because trade is zero-sum. To do that they also kind of need access to China's market.

India is also neutral but it's too incompetent, buffoonish, and most importantly it entirely lacks any real stake outside of Russia proper (and Israel weirdly), who it depends on for spare parts and some other stuff.

Only the PRC can be a true mediator since its interests are more important than vague ethnic ties to two small minorities in either country I think. But it isn't quite interested in that at the moment, as it's perfectly happy to not do anything about it and just let Turkey and Israel and France do the heavy lifting of negotiating an unwinnable peace deal.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Democratic Communist Federation
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Posts: 5295
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:19 am

Ifreann wrote:Tell us more about how the working class must be held responsible for the crimes of those who oppress and exploit them.


The lumpenproletariat, not the Proletariat.
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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:53 am

I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.
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Ifreann
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Posts: 159079
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:57 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Tell us more about how the working class must be held responsible for the crimes of those who oppress and exploit them.


The lumpenproletariat, not the Proletariat.

Oh, well, in that case. :roll:

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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:57 am

.
Last edited by Picairn on Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
Kyrusia's words live on forever!

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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:01 am

Picairn wrote:Anarcho-nazi Russian soldier captured in Ukraine

No, I did not make that shit up.

I feel like this man's political education has been somewhat lacking.

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The Selkie
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16925
Founded: Sep 17, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Selkie » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:17 am

According to the ORF, NATO says, that they could deliver weapons to Ukraine for years on end. That apparently will include heavy equipment.
The Ursel out of the Ice apparently likes trains, for she is taking one to Kiev. Hopefully it's not one of the DB...
The Americans say, that Putin gave up on Kiev.
And there was an attack on a train station in Kramatorsk. One full of refugees, of which 30 were dead and 100 wounded, at the time of the publishing of the report.
(All links in Austrian German.)
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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:18 am

Picairn wrote:Anarcho-nazi Russian soldier captured in Ukraine

No, I did not make that shit up.

Correction: This is an old photo from 2015. Apparently this soldier was in Donbass back then. I'll erase the initial post.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
Kyrusia's words live on forever!

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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11653
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:24 am

Picairn wrote:
Picairn wrote:Anarcho-nazi Russian soldier captured in Ukraine

No, I did not make that shit up.

Correction: This is an old photo from 2015. Apparently this soldier was in Donbass back then. I'll erase the initial post.

Time to denazify the Donbas then.

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Raskana
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Founded: Mar 29, 2022
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Raskana » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:27 am

Well, seems Putin has learned from Kim Jong Un when it comes to the news.
Pray for Ukraine and Moldova.
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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:34 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Picairn wrote:Correction: This is an old photo from 2015. Apparently this soldier was in Donbass back then. I'll erase the initial post.

Time to denazify the Donbas then.

Denazify 2015.

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Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:01 am

Picairn wrote:I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.


First war in Europe, then Fukuyama, then a new Srebeniza and now Bill Clinton.

Can the 90s just fuck off and not give us this highlights tour of things we never wanted to see again?!
Last edited by Chan Island on Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Picairn
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8827
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:21 am

Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
Kyrusia's words live on forever!

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New Baltenstein
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 398
Founded: Jan 07, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby New Baltenstein » Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:43 am

Chan Island wrote:
Picairn wrote:I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.


First war in Europe, then Fukuyama, then a new Srebeniza and now Bill Clinton.

Can the 90s just fuck off and not give us this highlights tour of things we never wanted to see again?!


Don't forget that the Fresh Prince of Bel Air got into one little fight with a guy who was up to no good again.
Old nation has been lost in the void

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Diuhon
Diplomat
 
Posts: 711
Founded: Jan 05, 2022
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Diuhon » Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:54 am

Chan Island wrote:
Picairn wrote:I Tried to Put Russia on Another Path

Bill Clinton just dropped a new essay defending his move to expand NATO.

Can the 90s just fuck off and not give us this highlights tour of things we never wanted to see again?!

look, the '90s wasn't an existential crisis for me, as the next two decades have become

can we not?

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Picairn
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8827
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:09 am

Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
Kyrusia's words live on forever!

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81270
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:04 am

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/tw ... 022-04-08/


Ukraine says dozens killed in missile strike on railway station used by evacuees

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Independent Cossack Ukraine
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 370
Founded: Mar 07, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Independent Cossack Ukraine » Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:16 am


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