Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Diuhon]

If anybody had any thought that we are not dealing with the revival of Nazism in the Russian Federation, sanctioned from the very heart of the Kremlin, here's Dmitry Medvedev quashing them by arguing for a lebensraum from Lisbon to Vladivostok.

Medvedev is the new Zhirinovsky yes.

With leaders like these, is it any wonder the Russian electorate, such as it were, can harbor thoughts toxic to the idea of coexistence, of democracy?

[Thermodolia]

Got a source for any of that?

It’s literally in the publicly available information released *by Ukraine* about joining their volunteer forces. I looked into it at the start of the conflict because why the fuck not go from one warzone to another, but the conditions were incredibly exploitative. To pick a few highlights, you volunteer for an unlimited service duration at the discretion of the Ukrainian military, you are expected to bring your own kit, there will be a nebulous “compensation” (with no mention of quantity, value, or any substantive information regarding said compensation, so they could feasibly compensate you in experience), supplies (to include food, ammo, medical care, etc) is neither guaranteed nor stated to be without cost, and there were veiled statements that broadly implied volunteers should incite mutinies and desertions in other national militaries to bolster the Ukrainian volunteer forces.
This is both a demonstrated act of desperation and exploitation on the part of the Ukrainian government.

The fact that there was zero organization and zero care (healthcare, logistics, kit provided, etc) was one of the big reasons I didn’t go over. The other being my injuries both physical and physiological from my service to Uncle Sam. Didn’t need more of that

[Vistulange]

Medvedev is the new Zhirinovsky yes.

With leaders like these, is it any wonder the Russian electorate, such as it were, can harbor thoughts toxic to the idea of coexistence, of democracy?

Well yes, that's partially the point. The whole reason Zhirinovsky and the LDPR is permitted to operate in Russia is precisely to foster this sort of thinking in some number of people.

[Thermodolia]

Serbia, Turkey, and Myanmar were the three most surprising 'yes' votes for me.

Serbia is trying to join the EU so that makes sense, Turkey is NATO so they gotta show a united front. But Myanmar is extremely shocking

[Diuhon]

Myanmar's ousted government has its UN rep casting a vote in favor. No surprise, as Putin's one of the more visible supporters of the Tatmadaw in the leadup to the election and the subsequent coup.

[USSR Impery]

Congratulations on having the last post in Part II and the first post in Part III.

Thank you.

Everyone thought Ukraine would fall like Poland did. But no, Ukraine stands strong!

Yep. Ukraine has a strong military and brave citizens, along with the Ukrainian President being one of the bravest leaders we have in the world right now. The country has shown that the military is quite strong, maybe even more efficient then Russia's military, where as Russia's military has only shown signs of weakening.

Вы считаете Зеленского одним из храбрейших лидеров? Не смешите мои коммунистические нападки, он глупец раз допустил начало войны. Возможно ничего бы не было если бы он не лез со своим Крымом и правами. Да Россия тоже поступила ужасно и начала данный конфлик. Но никто из вас по настоящему не знает что там происходит, вы что воевали на Украине?! Не думаю. Больше всего меня поражает ситуация с Санкциями кинутых на Россию. Зачем задевать игры и фильмы которые к политике никак не относятся. Вы думаете что мы выйдем на митинги и нас кто то будет слушать? Нас просто загонят по тюрьмам и всё, только один раз война останавливались благодаря митингах и то в Америке, где права людей интересны правительству.

[Ducksberg]

snip.

"Do you consider Zelensky one of the bravest leaders? Do not laugh at my communist attacks, he was a fool once he allowed the outbreak of war. Perhaps nothing would have happened if he had not climbed with his Crimea and rights. Yes, Russia also acted horribly and started this conflict. But none of you really knows what is happening there, did you fight in Ukraine?! I do not think. Most of all, I am struck by the situation with the Sanctions thrown on Russia. Why bother with games and films that have nothing to do with politics. Do you think that we will go to rallies and someone will listen to us? We will simply be driven to prisons and that's it, only once the war was stopped thanks to rallies, and then in America, where the rights of people are of interest to the government."

according to google translate

[El Lazaro]

snip.

"Do you consider Zelensky one of the bravest leaders? Do not laugh at my communist attacks, he was a fool once he allowed the outbreak of war. Perhaps nothing would have happened if he had not climbed with his Crimea and rights. Yes, Russia also acted horribly and started this conflict. But none of you really knows what is happening there, did you fight in Ukraine?! I do not think. Most of all, I am struck by the situation with the Sanctions thrown on Russia. Why bother with games and films that have nothing to do with politics. Do you think that we will go to rallies and someone will listen to us? We will simply be driven to prisons and that's it, only once the war was stopped thanks to rallies, and then in America, where the rights of people are of interest to the government."

according to google translate

That’s a bot from a Russian troll farm, don’t engage with them.
EDIT: didn’t see the nation was founded so early, still suspicious as it’s a first post though.

[Luna Amore]

Thank you.

Yep. Ukraine has a strong military and brave citizens, along with the Ukrainian President being one of the bravest leaders we have in the world right now. The country has shown that the military is quite strong, maybe even more efficient then Russia's military, where as Russia's military has only shown signs of weakening.

Вы считаете Зеленского одним из храбрейших лидеров? Не смешите мои коммунистические нападки, он глупец раз допустил начало войны. Возможно ничего бы не было если бы он не лез со своим Крымом и правами. Да Россия тоже поступила ужасно и начала данный конфлик. Но никто из вас по настоящему не знает что там происходит, вы что воевали на Украине?! Не думаю. Больше всего меня поражает ситуация с Санкциями кинутых на Россию. Зачем задевать игры и фильмы которые к политике никак не относятся. Вы думаете что мы выйдем на митинги и нас кто то будет слушать? Нас просто загонят по тюрьмам и всё, только один раз война останавливались благодаря митингах и то в Америке, где права людей интересны правительству.

This is primarily and English speaking site. Please stick to English for posts.

[Luziyca]

I'm going to put this here: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/07/europe/u ... index.html

I don't feel joy over seeing that, but I do feel a small bit of relief. Four Russian prisoners were executed like the one civilian in bucha with a gray hoodie and hands tied. May they all rest in peace.

War crimes should not be paid with more war crimes

In an ideal world, I would agree with you 100%.

That said, I'm not sure if most of the "soldiers" who have committed war crimes and other crimes against humanity would even face trial, let alone be sentenced. I am very skeptical that any of the higher-ups in the Russian government and military will ever face justice for their crimes against humanity, barring extraordinary rendition like what was done to Eichmann.

If it's unlikely that that they'd be adequately punished for the crimes they have committed, and if it's unlikely that they will even be tried in the first place (which IMO seems very likely), then it would not be surprising if people took matters into their own hands, as was the case with the Georgian Legion and those prisoners of war.

So long as they don't take revenge against Russian civilians for what Russian "soldiers" did to Ukrainian civilians, but instead restrict their revenge to only the "soldiers," Ukrainian revenge for Russian crimes against humanity is a-ok in my books.

[Gallia-]

Thank you.

Yep. Ukraine has a strong military and brave citizens, along with the Ukrainian President being one of the bravest leaders we have in the world right now. The country has shown that the military is quite strong, maybe even more efficient then Russia's military, where as Russia's military has only shown signs of weakening.

Вы считаете Зеленского одним из храбрейших лидеров? Не смешите мои коммунистические нападки, он глупец раз допустил начало войны. Возможно ничего бы не было если бы он не лез со своим Крымом и правами. Да Россия тоже поступила ужасно и начала данный конфлик. Но никто из вас по настоящему не знает что там происходит, вы что воевали на Украине?! Не думаю. Больше всего меня поражает ситуация с Санкциями кинутых на Россию. Зачем задевать игры и фильмы которые к политике никак не относятся. Вы думаете что мы выйдем на митинги и нас кто то будет слушать? Нас просто загонят по тюрьмам и всё, только один раз война останавливались благодаря митингах и то в Америке, где права людей интересны правительству.

Pretty accurate take. Though it's even worse than this, since sanctioning specific oligarchs like they're doing just pushes them closer to Putin. There isn't even an incentive for the people with real power to change the system, but I suspect that isn't the point. Sanctions are never about enforcing real change, they're just about making people feel good in the moment. Even if the oligarchs lead a palace coup, which they won't, they won't be getting those yachts back in all likelihood, because they'll have been scrapped or left to rot for a year or more and they aren't getting compensated to fix them, whereas if they do nothing they can at least keep the private dachas in the forest 100% because Putin will reward people who stand by him.

And yeah, I've spoke to a few Ukrainians (foreign and in the country itself) and read Telegram posts and they think Zelenskyy is at best a bumbling buffoon in over his head for not anticipating the invasion earlier and at worst a genuine traitor for negotiating with Russia.

I'm not entirely sure that America today is the same one of the '60's that would stop a war over rallies. It seems like it has a much savvier control over the media that would ensure that 60-70% of the population self-police the other 30% with counter-protests and violence, like what happened in 2003, and it still has sufficient economic clout it can stomp around like a elephant and crush random countries without being punished for it. It turns out that just getting the majority of people to agree with your war as a just cause is far more effective than shooting kids on a college campus, despite the latter being considered more authoritarian.

That really makes you wonder what the difference is, since if it just boils down to a correlation of forces and means ratio at the end of the day, is there any meaningful difference if the anticipated end results are the same?

"Do you consider Zelensky one of the bravest leaders? Do not laugh at my communist attacks, he was a fool once he allowed the outbreak of war. Perhaps nothing would have happened if he had not climbed with his Crimea and rights. Yes, Russia also acted horribly and started this conflict. But none of you really knows what is happening there, did you fight in Ukraine?! I do not think. Most of all, I am struck by the situation with the Sanctions thrown on Russia. Why bother with games and films that have nothing to do with politics. Do you think that we will go to rallies and someone will listen to us? We will simply be driven to prisons and that's it, only once the war was stopped thanks to rallies, and then in America, where the rights of people are of interest to the government."

according to google translate

That’s a bot from a Russian troll farm, don’t engage with them.
EDIT: didn’t see the nation was founded so early, still suspicious as it’s a first post though.

Ah yes the Russian bot who says "is zelenskyy super brave because he got caught with his pants down though" and "Russia is the aggressor in this conflict" and "none of you westerners who are over there in your heated homes know what is going on" and "sanctioning Netflix and iphones isn't going to do anything when the maybe 10,000 people who show up to a rally get arrested like every weekend after a Pussy Riot concert" and "only in America can that happen".

Clearly.

Anyway I disagree mainly with his point about America being such a good place that you can stop a unjust war of lies with protests. Most Americans supported Iraq, which was a sort of prototype for Putinist information controls. They still do, too, and the people who had the power to change it did nothing whatsoever. Everything else seems more just general whinging about Western conceited moral smugness hiding behind possibly the most braindead takes outside of actually obscure minorities with a huge axe to grind because Russia's federal government didn't give them the same treatment it gave Chechens.

[Australian rePublic]

Whenever any serious crime is committed, I usually like to say that it's an alleged perpetrator, because if the person is found innocent, acting as if they are guilty could ruin their lives. For this war, however, I'll make an exception, because there is just too much evidence. Fuck me dead! How can anyone who isn't under the direct control of Vladamir Putin support such a genocidal war criminal. I would normally call him an "alleged" genocidal war criminal, but there's nothing alleged about it. The guy's a fucking genocidal war criminal. How does he sleep with himself?

[Corrian]

Serbia, Turkey, and Myanmar were the three most surprising 'yes' votes for me.

Serbia is trying to join the EU so that makes sense, Turkey is NATO so they gotta show a united front. But Myanmar is extremely shocking

Why does Serbia want to join the EU when they're being and having pro-Russia rallies?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Serbia is trying to join the EU so that makes sense, Turkey is NATO so they gotta show a united front. But Myanmar is extremely shocking

Why does Serbia want to join the EU when they're being and having pro-Russia rallies?

Sweet, sweet money. Serbia wants the best of both worlds but at this rate I don't think it'll ever be accepted to the EU.

[Vistulange]

Serbia is trying to join the EU so that makes sense, Turkey is NATO so they gotta show a united front. But Myanmar is extremely shocking

Why does Serbia want to join the EU when they're being and having pro-Russia rallies?

Why does Hungary under Viktor Orban stay in the EU despite railing against Brussels day and night?

[Corrian]

Why does Serbia want to join the EU when they're being and having pro-Russia rallies?

Why does Hungary under Viktor Orban stay in the EU despite railing against Brussels day and night?

Yeah, I've been surprised they haven't voted to leave yet.

[Continental Free States]

Why does Hungary under Viktor Orban stay in the EU despite railing against Brussels day and night?

Yeah, I've been surprised they haven't voted to leave yet.

Really? Remaining in the EU (thus getting EU money and its economic benefits) while continuing to act in bad faith, thus hindering whatever the EU itself wants to do, is the best thing for Orban's ideology. It'd be surprising if he actually tried to withdraw when the status quo is only beneficial to him.

[New Baltenstein]

Why does Serbia want to join the EU when they're being and having pro-Russia rallies?

Sweet, sweet money. Serbia wants the best of both worlds but at this rate I don't think it'll ever be accepted to the EU.

We made that mistake with Hungary and hopefully won't repeat it anytime soon.

[Diuhon]

You Europeans made the mistake of not wholeheartedly supporting a democratic Russia. That was one.

The second is in not enforcing EU-wide laws for all member-states, or else.

[Gallia-]

You Europeans made the mistake of not wholeheartedly supporting a democratic Russia. That was one.

The second is in not enforcing EU-wide laws for all member-states, or else.

The last two bald guys who tried to reconcile Russia with democracy died of strokes. Proof there is true forbidden knowledge and killer thoughts.

[Diuhon]

Thank you.

Yep. Ukraine has a strong military and brave citizens, along with the Ukrainian President being one of the bravest leaders we have in the world right now. The country has shown that the military is quite strong, maybe even more efficient then Russia's military, where as Russia's military has only shown signs of weakening.

Вы считаете Зеленского одним из храбрейших лидеров? Не смешите мои коммунистические нападки, он глупец раз допустил начало войны. Возможно ничего бы не было если бы он не лез со своим Крымом и правами. Да Россия тоже поступила ужасно и начала данный конфлик. Но никто из вас по настоящему не знает что там происходит, вы что воевали на Украине?! Не думаю. Больше всего меня поражает ситуация с Санкциями кинутых на Россию. Зачем задевать игры и фильмы которые к политике никак не относятся. Вы думаете что мы выйдем на митинги и нас кто то будет слушать? Нас просто загонят по тюрьмам и всё, только один раз война останавливались благодаря митингах и то в Америке, где права людей интересны правительству.

The problem with running on and then trying to enact a platform of reconciliation when your deluded gloryhound of a neighbor is right next door chomping at every bit it can is that you tend to keep on pushing on solutions that won't work, even as you ramp up your military preparedness in the most inoffensive manner possible. But no use crying over this milk this spilt -- all that needs to be done now is to fuck Putin, smash the Russian military in Ukraine, fuck his authoritarianism, attack and occupy Russia as a prelude to a proper imposition of liberal democracy, and fuck authoritarianism.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

The second is in not enforcing EU-wide laws for all member-states, or else.

The problem there is that the different European countries have vastly divergent ideals of what a free, democratic society should look like. Just ask the Poles.

[Gallia-]

Вы считаете Зеленского одним из храбрейших лидеров? Не смешите мои коммунистические нападки, он глупец раз допустил начало войны. Возможно ничего бы не было если бы он не лез со своим Крымом и правами. Да Россия тоже поступила ужасно и начала данный конфлик. Но никто из вас по настоящему не знает что там происходит, вы что воевали на Украине?! Не думаю. Больше всего меня поражает ситуация с Санкциями кинутых на Россию. Зачем задевать игры и фильмы которые к политике никак не относятся. Вы думаете что мы выйдем на митинги и нас кто то будет слушать? Нас просто загонят по тюрьмам и всё, только один раз война останавливались благодаря митингах и то в Америке, где права людей интересны правительству.

The problem with running on and then trying to enact a platform of reconciliation when your deluded gloryhound of a neighbor is right next door chomping at every bit it can is that you tend to keep on pushing on solutions that won't work, even as you ramp up your military preparedness in the most inoffensive manner possible. But no use crying over this milk this spilt -- all that needs to be done now is to fuck Putin, smash the Russian military in Ukraine, fuck his authoritarianism, attack and occupy Russia as a prelude to a proper imposition of liberal democracy, and fuck authoritarianism.

Liberal interventionism is the Putinism of the West. It's the same brand of imperialistic moral universalism. It even looks identical when viewed up in action close! Russia and Ukraine need a mediator with an actual interest in a long-lasting peace, not one side taken to appeal to Ukrainian nationalists and the other side taken to appeal to Russian nationalists. The PRC and Israel are the obvious candidates here. Israel for its stake in both Russian and Ukrainian Jewish diaspora and PRC for its business interests.

[Risottia]

Why does Serbia want to join the EU when they're being and having pro-Russia rallies?

Sweet, sweet money. Serbia wants the best of both worlds but at this rate I don't think it'll ever be accepted to the EU.

Actually the accession and alignment process is going on, and EU members would support Albanian and Serbian accession as it would provide a lessening of tensions in the Balkans.

[Gallia-]

The second is in not enforcing EU-wide laws for all member-states, or else.

The problem there is that the different European countries have vastly divergent ideals of what a free, democratic society should look like. Just ask the Poles.

It would be hilarious if Poland had to be subject to the exact same laws as France or Sweden tbh.