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Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:02 am

Alright, so a lot more evidence just came out that proves Amnesty International's "report" was very poorly researched and rushed, including statements from field reporters who interacted with their report team and legal professors on this matter. I'll compile it here for NSG's benefit. Government sources are obviously excluded to prevent any accusation of bias.

1. Out-of-context claims

Tom Mutch, a New Zealander reporter who personally met and discussed the report with Donatella Rovera, the lead author of the report and Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher, and the Amnesty staff in Kramatorsk:
I was sat around a table with Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher predicting their upcoming report would land like a lead balloon. We were in the kitchen of our hotel in Kramatorsk, the administrative capital of Ukrainian controlled Donetsk and we could hear the boom of artillery outside our windows every hour.

Rather than expressing shock at the relentless Russian bombardment, the Amnesty staff seemed much more concerned with the fact that a Ukrainian army unit had taken refuge in the basement of a college building.

We’d all been to the building: an abandoned language school in the frontline town of Bakhmut which had been turned into a temporary barracks for a Ukrainian unit. This is not a war crime. A military is perfectly entitled to set up in an evacuated educational institution, although of course that building can no longer claim civilian protection and there was a mainly abandoned civilian apartment block over the road, which had not been fully evacuated.

But Rovera was insistent that this military presence in a populated area was a “violation of international humanitarian law”’. When I pressed her on how the Ukrainian Army was supposed to defend a populated area, she said that it was irrelevant.

By that logic, I continued, Ukraine would have to abandon the major locations such as the city of Kharkiv. “Well, they must avoid as far as possible taking positions in a populated area,” she replied. “International humanitarian law is very clear on this.”

I suggested her coming Amnesty International report would be received badly if it failed to differentiate between defensive and offensive operations in urban areas. But it appeared the authors’ minds had been made up: Ukraine was endangering its own civilians by the mere act of attempting to defend its cities.

[...] I was in one of the locations mentioned in the Amnesty report, a school block in the under-fire city of Lysychansk, with Ukrainian soldiers as they offered an evacuation ride to any civilian residents who wished to leave. Three did, and we traveled with them as we returned to safer locations. I had reported this all at the time.

If what Tom Mutch said is true, Amnesty committed an egregious error by omitting critical context that some of the buildings occupied by Ukrainian soldiers were already abandoned or evacuated at the time of research.

Bakhmut, one of the cities which Amnesty accused Ukraine of failing to evacuate, was in fact the subject of one of APNews' articles on Ukrainian evacuations.
“The Russians are right over there, and they’re closing in on this location,” Mark Poppert, an American volunteer working with British charity RefugEase, said during an evacuation in the town of Bakhmut on Friday.

“Bakhmut is a high-risk area right now,” he said. “We’re trying to get as many people out as we can in case the Ukrainians have to fall back.”

He and other Ukrainian and foreign volunteers working with the Ukrainian charity Vostok SOS, which was coordinating the evacuation effort, were hoping to get about 100 people out of Bakhmut on Friday, Poppert said.

[...] Most people have already fled Bakhmut: only around 30,000 remain from a pre-war population of 85,000. And more are leaving each day.

Amnesty saying they have no info or were not aware of Ukrainian evacuations of civilians from the frontline is horribly wrong and ignorant. This isn't even a contest.

Russian attacks halt plans to evacuate Ukrainian civilians | March 6

Civilians in eastern Ukraine told to evacuate as Russian forces regroup | April 6

Ukraine Rushes to Evacuate Civilians in East as Russia’s Offensive Pushes Forward | April 19

Third Humanitarian Convoy Under Way to Evacuate Civilians from Besieged Ukraine City, Secretary-General Tells Security Council | May 6

All civilians evacuate Mariupol’s Azovstal | May 8

Ukraine struggles to evacuate civilians from devastated eastern city | June 14

Ukraine evacuates civilians from Sloviansk as Russian troops advance | July 6

Zelensky orders civilians to evacuate Donetsk region | July 31

2. Misrepresentations of international law

Amnesty's claim on this subject is maximalist.
We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.

In other words, Ukrainians are committing war crimes.

Here is what the International Red Cross says about criminal liability under international law:
In fact, it is generally recognized that the defender’s obligations do not create individual criminal liability.

A current imbalance in individual criminal responsibility exists, where an attacker can commit a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions in at least five different ways, but the defender who is in the best position to protect civilians in urban environments faces no such liability.

As the Red Cross publishes, it is legally impossible for Ukraine to have committed war crimes in this context. They may, however, have other obligations.

In Article 58 and 59 of Additional Protocol I, the defender's obligations are detailed.
It is important to underline that a party is not required to evacuate civilians or civilian objects from any built-up area as such, but only to remove them from the vicinity of military objectives.

A defending party may go further and evacuate civilians in accordance with Article 17 of the Fourth Geneva Convention—a point reinforced by the reference to Article 49 of the Convention made in Article 58(a)—but it is not obliged to do so.

And Article 58 either does not apply to urban warfare or gives plenty of leeway for the defenders due to its wording around feasibility:
Article 58(b) directs the parties to avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas. At the diplomatic conference, several states voiced concerns that this obligation could curtail their right to take the most efficient measures necessary for the defence of their national territory. Since the precautionary duties under Article 58 apply only to the maximum extent feasible, France suggested in the case of densely populated territories such as those of metropolitan France, Article 58(b) “could not really become operative” at all (Official Records of the Diplomatic Conference, Vol 6, 213). Italy declared that “it is clear that a State with a densely populated territory could not allow that provision to hamper the organization of its defence” (ibid, 235).

... as France emphasized, the obligation extends only to what is feasible—which is generally understood to demand only measures that are “practicable or practically possible, taking into account all circumstances existing at the relevant time, including those circumstances relevant to the success of military operations” (ibid, 232).

Parties to the conflict will have to weigh whether they can avoid placing military objectives within or near densely populated areas without compromising the successful defense of the area. This decision has more to do with a judgment as to what is practicable—all things considered—rather than what is practically possible. Factors that should feed into this assessment include the nature of the military objectives involved, the military significance of the populated area, the hostile action expected from an adversary and the extent and nature of the civilian harm that the placement of military objectives would pose, as well as the availability and effect of any mitigating measures.

In short, Ukrainians can't be criminally liable for placing civilians near military objectives, and they have no legal obligation to move their military units if the military objective is important enough.

Amnesty attempted to address this with two sentences in their report:
Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas.

They provide no other evidence as to what viable alternatives were available. They neglected to mention that these built-up areas were military objectives precisely because they were civilian areas that the Russians wanted to take. And they did not make an assessment that balances the military objective with the risk to civilians in those situations. How could they? They're not experts on the Ukrainian military.

Here's what Jack Watling, Senior Research Fellow - Land Warfare, says about that:
The Amnesty report demonstrates a weak understanding of the laws of armed conflict, no understanding of military operations, and indulges in insinuations without supplying supporting evidence.

It is not a violation of IHL for Ukrainian military personnel to situate themselves in the terrain they are tasked to defend rather than in some random piece of adjacent woodland where they can be bypassed.

The Ukrainian military has regularly urged civilians to leave areas of fighting and facilitated them doing so. Forcing displacement is itself a violation of IHL and throughout history many civilians have chosen to remain in areas where there are ongoing military operations.

In setting unattainable expectations of civilian protection, Amnesty trivialises an important issue.

Here is what UN war crimes investigator Marc Garlasco says:
They got the law wrong. Protocol 1 states militaries shall to the maximum extent feasible AVOID locating military objects near populated areas.

Ukraine can place forces in areas they are defending - especially in urban warfare. There is no requirement to stand shoulder to shoulder in a field - this isn’t the 19th century. Ukraine still has an OBLIGATION to protect civilians - but they are taking steps to do so like helping civilians relocate.

And here is what Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt says:

Amnesty International’s allegation of unlawful conduct by Ukraine is unconvincing. IHL is a nuanced body of law because it must carefully balance two sometimes competing interests – military necessity and humanitarian considerations.

In my estimation, Amnesty International has acted irresponsibly by making the claim without providing supporting evidence, citing the specific rules that it believes have been violated, or laying out its legal analysis. These failures have deprived Ukraine of a meaningful opportunity to respond and the international community of an ability to properly assess it.

I urge the organization to immediately remedy the situation by releasing its evidence and explaining the legal basis for its conclusion that the conduct violates IHL. As the entity leveling a charge of unlawful conduct, some of which could qualify as a grave breach of IHL, Amnesty International bears the burdens of persuasion and proof. It has not met that burden.

Given that the entire obligation here hinges on the balance between military and civilian needs, and that the civilian needs are intertwined with military objectives in urban combat, the most important question of whether Ukraine failed to fulfill their obligation went unaddressed in Amnesty's report.

Instead, Amnesty merely claims they failed them. This is poor reporting and worse advocacy.

3. Military units in hospitals

Amnesty claims that Ukraine set up military bases in hospitals. This is one part of their claim which could constitute criminal liability, as it's clear in international law that the misuse of protected symbols such as the red cross is a war crime.

Their report goes:
Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.

Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.

Their claim is factually incorrect. Using hospitals for military purposes is not a clear violation of IHL. There are many permissible military uses for hospitals.

One of them is military hospitals. Many of them exist throughout the world, and there is nothing war criminal about them. Some of them exist in war zones as well. For example, the Egyptian Field Hospital at Bagram Airbase that treated 7,000 patients at its peak (for free) was set up in about as "military objective" a place as could be in Afghanistan. It was located right next to the tarmac where the US Air Force was flying missions out of.

It is also perfectly acceptable that civilian hospitals are used to treat and house military personnel. They have in the past, and there is no specific prohibition against that in IHL, as long as there is no intent to shield the combatants inside from enemies.

Another legal military use for hospitals is for the treatment of captured prisoners of war. In fact, IHL specifically obligates militaries to provide adequate medical treatment for POWs.

As Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt writes:
The critical provision with respect to the reported behavior is Article 12(4) of Additional Protocol I. It provides, “Under no circumstances shall medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack.” But the rule is limited. The mere presence of military personnel in or near medical facilities (aside from those guarding the facility or being treated) is not unlawful absent an intent to shield. Amnesty International cites no facts unambiguously demonstrating such an intent, leaving only speculation as to why they were there.

The DoD Law of War Manual provides, “[f]or example, a hospital may not be used as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition depot, or as a military observation post” (§ 7.10.3.1). Setting up a base in a medical compound would certainly qualify, but whether “resting, milling about, and eating” would is questionable.

Yet the rule simply removes the special protection medical facilities enjoy; absent intent to shield, there is no IHL violation.

I suspect that the brief nature of this section in the Amnesty report indicates that they KNOW that this is not a real IHL violation because using hospitals to shield military targets from attack is a very serious charge. If there were any validity to this, they would (and should) have spent more ink detailing their accusation.

Bonus: Neil Hauer, a reporter who spent a few days staying with Tom Mutch and Donatella Rovera in the same hotel in Kramatorsk in May, says that the latter has a pre-set agenda:
Donatella stayed in the same hotel as us for several days in Kramatorsk in May. It was quite clear from conversations that she had an agenda already - to be contrarian and 'well akshually Ukraine is just as bad' before she even began her fieldwork there.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:00 am

Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas.

gotta say "why dont they go innawoods" is the most crass and tone deaf statement regarding urban warfare i have seen lmao
and according to this maxim we should now charge the Bosnians defending Sarajevo with war crimes for defending the city
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:11 am

This is why the OHCHR and friends are the only sources I trust on human rights.

~~~~~~~~~~

Instanthub is a little-heralded website which - for the most part - appears to serve as a repository for British royal family facts you neither wanted nor needed to know. (It is not known if it is a Ukrainian website, like some of the other sites I've seen getting promoted in Outbrain-style ads: a WHOIS search reveals that Instanthub is using a WHOIS privacy service called Domains by Proxy, most of the staff appear to be Americans with Anglo-sounding names and little obvious connection to the country, and the staff list appears to have a ton in common with other clickbaity sites.)

From time to time, however, it publishes tidbits about eastern Europe. According to this article, "“vladimir putin” and “russia” are not capitalized in this article per Ukraine’s official stance to no longer capitalize these words due to the atrocity of putin’s crimes against humanity". No further source is provided and Instanthub capitalises "Russia" in at least one recent article by the same author, Chris Snellgrove (who just so happens to not be mentioned on Instanthub's masthead).

I've seen a lot of showboating from the Ukrainian government about urging Western companies to withdraw from Russia, withdrawing Moscow's city status, the Fenerbahce chant and all the usual shit - but I haven't heard hide or hair about this particular policy. Does anybody have any more information or is Instanthub just making this up on the fly?
Last edited by Tinhampton on Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:03 am

I was reading through that Neil Hauer tweet thread, sounds like Amnesty International has some real piece of shit tankies on their payroll.
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Postby Gravlen » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:37 am

Picairn wrote:Alright, so a lot more evidence just came out that proves Amnesty International's "report" was very poorly researched and rushed, including statements from field reporters who interacted with their report team and legal professors on this matter. I'll compile it here for NSG's benefit. Government sources are obviously excluded to prevent any accusation of bias.
1. Out-of-context claims

Tom Mutch, a New Zealander reporter who personally met and discussed the report with Donatella Rovera, the lead author of the report and Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher, and the Amnesty staff in Kramatorsk:
I was sat around a table with Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher predicting their upcoming report would land like a lead balloon. We were in the kitchen of our hotel in Kramatorsk, the administrative capital of Ukrainian controlled Donetsk and we could hear the boom of artillery outside our windows every hour.

Rather than expressing shock at the relentless Russian bombardment, the Amnesty staff seemed much more concerned with the fact that a Ukrainian army unit had taken refuge in the basement of a college building.

We’d all been to the building: an abandoned language school in the frontline town of Bakhmut which had been turned into a temporary barracks for a Ukrainian unit. This is not a war crime. A military is perfectly entitled to set up in an evacuated educational institution, although of course that building can no longer claim civilian protection and there was a mainly abandoned civilian apartment block over the road, which had not been fully evacuated.

But Rovera was insistent that this military presence in a populated area was a “violation of international humanitarian law”’. When I pressed her on how the Ukrainian Army was supposed to defend a populated area, she said that it was irrelevant.

By that logic, I continued, Ukraine would have to abandon the major locations such as the city of Kharkiv. “Well, they must avoid as far as possible taking positions in a populated area,” she replied. “International humanitarian law is very clear on this.”

I suggested her coming Amnesty International report would be received badly if it failed to differentiate between defensive and offensive operations in urban areas. But it appeared the authors’ minds had been made up: Ukraine was endangering its own civilians by the mere act of attempting to defend its cities.

[...] I was in one of the locations mentioned in the Amnesty report, a school block in the under-fire city of Lysychansk, with Ukrainian soldiers as they offered an evacuation ride to any civilian residents who wished to leave. Three did, and we traveled with them as we returned to safer locations. I had reported this all at the time.

If what Tom Mutch said is true, Amnesty committed an egregious error by omitting critical context that some of the buildings occupied by Ukrainian soldiers were already abandoned or evacuated at the time of research.

Bakhmut, one of the cities which Amnesty accused Ukraine of failing to evacuate, was in fact the subject of one of APNews' articles on Ukrainian evacuations.
“The Russians are right over there, and they’re closing in on this location,” Mark Poppert, an American volunteer working with British charity RefugEase, said during an evacuation in the town of Bakhmut on Friday.

“Bakhmut is a high-risk area right now,” he said. “We’re trying to get as many people out as we can in case the Ukrainians have to fall back.”

He and other Ukrainian and foreign volunteers working with the Ukrainian charity Vostok SOS, which was coordinating the evacuation effort, were hoping to get about 100 people out of Bakhmut on Friday, Poppert said.

[...] Most people have already fled Bakhmut: only around 30,000 remain from a pre-war population of 85,000. And more are leaving each day.

Amnesty saying they have no info or were not aware of Ukrainian evacuations of civilians from the frontline is horribly wrong and ignorant. This isn't even a contest.

Russian attacks halt plans to evacuate Ukrainian civilians | March 6

Civilians in eastern Ukraine told to evacuate as Russian forces regroup | April 6

Ukraine Rushes to Evacuate Civilians in East as Russia’s Offensive Pushes Forward | April 19

Third Humanitarian Convoy Under Way to Evacuate Civilians from Besieged Ukraine City, Secretary-General Tells Security Council | May 6

All civilians evacuate Mariupol’s Azovstal | May 8

Ukraine struggles to evacuate civilians from devastated eastern city | June 14

Ukraine evacuates civilians from Sloviansk as Russian troops advance | July 6

Zelensky orders civilians to evacuate Donetsk region | July 31

2. Misrepresentations of international law

Amnesty's claim on this subject is maximalist.
We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.

In other words, Ukrainians are committing war crimes.

Here is what the International Red Cross says about criminal liability under international law:
In fact, it is generally recognized that the defender’s obligations do not create individual criminal liability.

A current imbalance in individual criminal responsibility exists, where an attacker can commit a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions in at least five different ways, but the defender who is in the best position to protect civilians in urban environments faces no such liability.

As the Red Cross publishes, it is legally impossible for Ukraine to have committed war crimes in this context. They may, however, have other obligations.

In Article 58 and 59 of Additional Protocol I, the defender's obligations are detailed.
It is important to underline that a party is not required to evacuate civilians or civilian objects from any built-up area as such, but only to remove them from the vicinity of military objectives.

A defending party may go further and evacuate civilians in accordance with Article 17 of the Fourth Geneva Convention—a point reinforced by the reference to Article 49 of the Convention made in Article 58(a)—but it is not obliged to do so.

And Article 58 either does not apply to urban warfare or gives plenty of leeway for the defenders due to its wording around feasibility:
Article 58(b) directs the parties to avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas. At the diplomatic conference, several states voiced concerns that this obligation could curtail their right to take the most efficient measures necessary for the defence of their national territory. Since the precautionary duties under Article 58 apply only to the maximum extent feasible, France suggested in the case of densely populated territories such as those of metropolitan France, Article 58(b) “could not really become operative” at all (Official Records of the Diplomatic Conference, Vol 6, 213). Italy declared that “it is clear that a State with a densely populated territory could not allow that provision to hamper the organization of its defence” (ibid, 235).

... as France emphasized, the obligation extends only to what is feasible—which is generally understood to demand only measures that are “practicable or practically possible, taking into account all circumstances existing at the relevant time, including those circumstances relevant to the success of military operations” (ibid, 232).

Parties to the conflict will have to weigh whether they can avoid placing military objectives within or near densely populated areas without compromising the successful defense of the area. This decision has more to do with a judgment as to what is practicable—all things considered—rather than what is practically possible. Factors that should feed into this assessment include the nature of the military objectives involved, the military significance of the populated area, the hostile action expected from an adversary and the extent and nature of the civilian harm that the placement of military objectives would pose, as well as the availability and effect of any mitigating measures.

In short, Ukrainians can't be criminally liable for placing civilians near military objectives, and they have no legal obligation to move their military units if the military objective is important enough.

Amnesty attempted to address this with two sentences in their report:
Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas.

They provide no other evidence as to what viable alternatives were available. They neglected to mention that these built-up areas were military objectives precisely because they were civilian areas that the Russians wanted to take. And they did not make an assessment that balances the military objective with the risk to civilians in those situations. How could they? They're not experts on the Ukrainian military.

Here's what Jack Watling, Senior Research Fellow - Land Warfare, says about that:
The Amnesty report demonstrates a weak understanding of the laws of armed conflict, no understanding of military operations, and indulges in insinuations without supplying supporting evidence.

It is not a violation of IHL for Ukrainian military personnel to situate themselves in the terrain they are tasked to defend rather than in some random piece of adjacent woodland where they can be bypassed.

The Ukrainian military has regularly urged civilians to leave areas of fighting and facilitated them doing so. Forcing displacement is itself a violation of IHL and throughout history many civilians have chosen to remain in areas where there are ongoing military operations.

In setting unattainable expectations of civilian protection, Amnesty trivialises an important issue.

Here is what UN war crimes investigator Marc Garlasco says:
They got the law wrong. Protocol 1 states militaries shall to the maximum extent feasible AVOID locating military objects near populated areas.

Ukraine can place forces in areas they are defending - especially in urban warfare. There is no requirement to stand shoulder to shoulder in a field - this isn’t the 19th century. Ukraine still has an OBLIGATION to protect civilians - but they are taking steps to do so like helping civilians relocate.

And here is what Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt says:

Amnesty International’s allegation of unlawful conduct by Ukraine is unconvincing. IHL is a nuanced body of law because it must carefully balance two sometimes competing interests – military necessity and humanitarian considerations.

In my estimation, Amnesty International has acted irresponsibly by making the claim without providing supporting evidence, citing the specific rules that it believes have been violated, or laying out its legal analysis. These failures have deprived Ukraine of a meaningful opportunity to respond and the international community of an ability to properly assess it.

I urge the organization to immediately remedy the situation by releasing its evidence and explaining the legal basis for its conclusion that the conduct violates IHL. As the entity leveling a charge of unlawful conduct, some of which could qualify as a grave breach of IHL, Amnesty International bears the burdens of persuasion and proof. It has not met that burden.

Given that the entire obligation here hinges on the balance between military and civilian needs, and that the civilian needs are intertwined with military objectives in urban combat, the most important question of whether Ukraine failed to fulfill their obligation went unaddressed in Amnesty's report.

Instead, Amnesty merely claims they failed them. This is poor reporting and worse advocacy.

3. Military units in hospitals

Amnesty claims that Ukraine set up military bases in hospitals. This is one part of their claim which could constitute criminal liability, as it's clear in international law that the misuse of protected symbols such as the red cross is a war crime.

Their report goes:
Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.

Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.

Their claim is factually incorrect. Using hospitals for military purposes is not a clear violation of IHL. There are many permissible military uses for hospitals.

One of them is military hospitals. Many of them exist throughout the world, and there is nothing war criminal about them. Some of them exist in war zones as well. For example, the Egyptian Field Hospital at Bagram Airbase that treated 7,000 patients at its peak (for free) was set up in about as "military objective" a place as could be in Afghanistan. It was located right next to the tarmac where the US Air Force was flying missions out of.

It is also perfectly acceptable that civilian hospitals are used to treat and house military personnel. They have in the past, and there is no specific prohibition against that in IHL, as long as there is no intent to shield the combatants inside from enemies.

Another legal military use for hospitals is for the treatment of captured prisoners of war. In fact, IHL specifically obligates militaries to provide adequate medical treatment for POWs.

As Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt writes:
The critical provision with respect to the reported behavior is Article 12(4) of Additional Protocol I. It provides, “Under no circumstances shall medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack.” But the rule is limited. The mere presence of military personnel in or near medical facilities (aside from those guarding the facility or being treated) is not unlawful absent an intent to shield. Amnesty International cites no facts unambiguously demonstrating such an intent, leaving only speculation as to why they were there.

The DoD Law of War Manual provides, “[f]or example, a hospital may not be used as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition depot, or as a military observation post” (§ 7.10.3.1). Setting up a base in a medical compound would certainly qualify, but whether “resting, milling about, and eating” would is questionable.

Yet the rule simply removes the special protection medical facilities enjoy; absent intent to shield, there is no IHL violation.

I suspect that the brief nature of this section in the Amnesty report indicates that they KNOW that this is not a real IHL violation because using hospitals to shield military targets from attack is a very serious charge. If there were any validity to this, they would (and should) have spent more ink detailing their accusation.

Bonus: Neil Hauer, a reporter who spent a few days staying with Tom Mutch and Donatella Rovera in the same hotel in Kramatorsk in May, says that the latter has a pre-set agenda:
Donatella stayed in the same hotel as us for several days in Kramatorsk in May. It was quite clear from conversations that she had an agenda already - to be contrarian and 'well akshually Ukraine is just as bad' before she even began her fieldwork there.

Thank you for this very detailed post. It was an interesting read.

(Edited to include spoilers to reduce the sice of the quote - since you've used spolier tags I can't spoiler all of it)
Last edited by Gravlen on Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:08 pm

Picairn wrote:Alright, so a lot more evidence just came out that proves Amnesty International's "report" was very poorly researched and rushed, including statements from field reporters who interacted with their report team and legal professors on this matter. I'll compile it here for NSG's benefit. Government sources are obviously excluded to prevent any accusation of bias.

1. Out-of-context claims

Tom Mutch, a New Zealander reporter who personally met and discussed the report with Donatella Rovera, the lead author of the report and Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher, and the Amnesty staff in Kramatorsk:
I was sat around a table with Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher predicting their upcoming report would land like a lead balloon. We were in the kitchen of our hotel in Kramatorsk, the administrative capital of Ukrainian controlled Donetsk and we could hear the boom of artillery outside our windows every hour.

Rather than expressing shock at the relentless Russian bombardment, the Amnesty staff seemed much more concerned with the fact that a Ukrainian army unit had taken refuge in the basement of a college building.

We’d all been to the building: an abandoned language school in the frontline town of Bakhmut which had been turned into a temporary barracks for a Ukrainian unit. This is not a war crime. A military is perfectly entitled to set up in an evacuated educational institution, although of course that building can no longer claim civilian protection and there was a mainly abandoned civilian apartment block over the road, which had not been fully evacuated.

But Rovera was insistent that this military presence in a populated area was a “violation of international humanitarian law”’. When I pressed her on how the Ukrainian Army was supposed to defend a populated area, she said that it was irrelevant.

By that logic, I continued, Ukraine would have to abandon the major locations such as the city of Kharkiv. “Well, they must avoid as far as possible taking positions in a populated area,” she replied. “International humanitarian law is very clear on this.”

I suggested her coming Amnesty International report would be received badly if it failed to differentiate between defensive and offensive operations in urban areas. But it appeared the authors’ minds had been made up: Ukraine was endangering its own civilians by the mere act of attempting to defend its cities.

[...] I was in one of the locations mentioned in the Amnesty report, a school block in the under-fire city of Lysychansk, with Ukrainian soldiers as they offered an evacuation ride to any civilian residents who wished to leave. Three did, and we traveled with them as we returned to safer locations. I had reported this all at the time.

If what Tom Mutch said is true, Amnesty committed an egregious error by omitting critical context that some of the buildings occupied by Ukrainian soldiers were already abandoned or evacuated at the time of research.

Bakhmut, one of the cities which Amnesty accused Ukraine of failing to evacuate, was in fact the subject of one of APNews' articles on Ukrainian evacuations.
“The Russians are right over there, and they’re closing in on this location,” Mark Poppert, an American volunteer working with British charity RefugEase, said during an evacuation in the town of Bakhmut on Friday.

“Bakhmut is a high-risk area right now,” he said. “We’re trying to get as many people out as we can in case the Ukrainians have to fall back.”

He and other Ukrainian and foreign volunteers working with the Ukrainian charity Vostok SOS, which was coordinating the evacuation effort, were hoping to get about 100 people out of Bakhmut on Friday, Poppert said.

[...] Most people have already fled Bakhmut: only around 30,000 remain from a pre-war population of 85,000. And more are leaving each day.

Amnesty saying they have no info or were not aware of Ukrainian evacuations of civilians from the frontline is horribly wrong and ignorant. This isn't even a contest.

Russian attacks halt plans to evacuate Ukrainian civilians | March 6

Civilians in eastern Ukraine told to evacuate as Russian forces regroup | April 6

Ukraine Rushes to Evacuate Civilians in East as Russia’s Offensive Pushes Forward | April 19

Third Humanitarian Convoy Under Way to Evacuate Civilians from Besieged Ukraine City, Secretary-General Tells Security Council | May 6

All civilians evacuate Mariupol’s Azovstal | May 8

Ukraine struggles to evacuate civilians from devastated eastern city | June 14

Ukraine evacuates civilians from Sloviansk as Russian troops advance | July 6

Zelensky orders civilians to evacuate Donetsk region | July 31

2. Misrepresentations of international law

Amnesty's claim on this subject is maximalist.
We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.

In other words, Ukrainians are committing war crimes.

Here is what the International Red Cross says about criminal liability under international law:
In fact, it is generally recognized that the defender’s obligations do not create individual criminal liability.

A current imbalance in individual criminal responsibility exists, where an attacker can commit a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions in at least five different ways, but the defender who is in the best position to protect civilians in urban environments faces no such liability.

As the Red Cross publishes, it is legally impossible for Ukraine to have committed war crimes in this context. They may, however, have other obligations.

In Article 58 and 59 of Additional Protocol I, the defender's obligations are detailed.
It is important to underline that a party is not required to evacuate civilians or civilian objects from any built-up area as such, but only to remove them from the vicinity of military objectives.

A defending party may go further and evacuate civilians in accordance with Article 17 of the Fourth Geneva Convention—a point reinforced by the reference to Article 49 of the Convention made in Article 58(a)—but it is not obliged to do so.

And Article 58 either does not apply to urban warfare or gives plenty of leeway for the defenders due to its wording around feasibility:
Article 58(b) directs the parties to avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas. At the diplomatic conference, several states voiced concerns that this obligation could curtail their right to take the most efficient measures necessary for the defence of their national territory. Since the precautionary duties under Article 58 apply only to the maximum extent feasible, France suggested in the case of densely populated territories such as those of metropolitan France, Article 58(b) “could not really become operative” at all (Official Records of the Diplomatic Conference, Vol 6, 213). Italy declared that “it is clear that a State with a densely populated territory could not allow that provision to hamper the organization of its defence” (ibid, 235).

... as France emphasized, the obligation extends only to what is feasible—which is generally understood to demand only measures that are “practicable or practically possible, taking into account all circumstances existing at the relevant time, including those circumstances relevant to the success of military operations” (ibid, 232).

Parties to the conflict will have to weigh whether they can avoid placing military objectives within or near densely populated areas without compromising the successful defense of the area. This decision has more to do with a judgment as to what is practicable—all things considered—rather than what is practically possible. Factors that should feed into this assessment include the nature of the military objectives involved, the military significance of the populated area, the hostile action expected from an adversary and the extent and nature of the civilian harm that the placement of military objectives would pose, as well as the availability and effect of any mitigating measures.

In short, Ukrainians can't be criminally liable for placing civilians near military objectives, and they have no legal obligation to move their military units if the military objective is important enough.

Amnesty attempted to address this with two sentences in their report:
Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas.

They provide no other evidence as to what viable alternatives were available. They neglected to mention that these built-up areas were military objectives precisely because they were civilian areas that the Russians wanted to take. And they did not make an assessment that balances the military objective with the risk to civilians in those situations. How could they? They're not experts on the Ukrainian military.

Here's what Jack Watling, Senior Research Fellow - Land Warfare, says about that:
The Amnesty report demonstrates a weak understanding of the laws of armed conflict, no understanding of military operations, and indulges in insinuations without supplying supporting evidence.

It is not a violation of IHL for Ukrainian military personnel to situate themselves in the terrain they are tasked to defend rather than in some random piece of adjacent woodland where they can be bypassed.

The Ukrainian military has regularly urged civilians to leave areas of fighting and facilitated them doing so. Forcing displacement is itself a violation of IHL and throughout history many civilians have chosen to remain in areas where there are ongoing military operations.

In setting unattainable expectations of civilian protection, Amnesty trivialises an important issue.

Here is what UN war crimes investigator Marc Garlasco says:
They got the law wrong. Protocol 1 states militaries shall to the maximum extent feasible AVOID locating military objects near populated areas.

Ukraine can place forces in areas they are defending - especially in urban warfare. There is no requirement to stand shoulder to shoulder in a field - this isn’t the 19th century. Ukraine still has an OBLIGATION to protect civilians - but they are taking steps to do so like helping civilians relocate.

And here is what Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt says:

Amnesty International’s allegation of unlawful conduct by Ukraine is unconvincing. IHL is a nuanced body of law because it must carefully balance two sometimes competing interests – military necessity and humanitarian considerations.

In my estimation, Amnesty International has acted irresponsibly by making the claim without providing supporting evidence, citing the specific rules that it believes have been violated, or laying out its legal analysis. These failures have deprived Ukraine of a meaningful opportunity to respond and the international community of an ability to properly assess it.

I urge the organization to immediately remedy the situation by releasing its evidence and explaining the legal basis for its conclusion that the conduct violates IHL. As the entity leveling a charge of unlawful conduct, some of which could qualify as a grave breach of IHL, Amnesty International bears the burdens of persuasion and proof. It has not met that burden.

Given that the entire obligation here hinges on the balance between military and civilian needs, and that the civilian needs are intertwined with military objectives in urban combat, the most important question of whether Ukraine failed to fulfill their obligation went unaddressed in Amnesty's report.

Instead, Amnesty merely claims they failed them. This is poor reporting and worse advocacy.

3. Military units in hospitals

Amnesty claims that Ukraine set up military bases in hospitals. This is one part of their claim which could constitute criminal liability, as it's clear in international law that the misuse of protected symbols such as the red cross is a war crime.

Their report goes:
Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.

Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.

Their claim is factually incorrect. Using hospitals for military purposes is not a clear violation of IHL. There are many permissible military uses for hospitals.

One of them is military hospitals. Many of them exist throughout the world, and there is nothing war criminal about them. Some of them exist in war zones as well. For example, the Egyptian Field Hospital at Bagram Airbase that treated 7,000 patients at its peak (for free) was set up in about as "military objective" a place as could be in Afghanistan. It was located right next to the tarmac where the US Air Force was flying missions out of.

It is also perfectly acceptable that civilian hospitals are used to treat and house military personnel. They have in the past, and there is no specific prohibition against that in IHL, as long as there is no intent to shield the combatants inside from enemies.

Another legal military use for hospitals is for the treatment of captured prisoners of war. In fact, IHL specifically obligates militaries to provide adequate medical treatment for POWs.

As Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt writes:
The critical provision with respect to the reported behavior is Article 12(4) of Additional Protocol I. It provides, “Under no circumstances shall medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack.” But the rule is limited. The mere presence of military personnel in or near medical facilities (aside from those guarding the facility or being treated) is not unlawful absent an intent to shield. Amnesty International cites no facts unambiguously demonstrating such an intent, leaving only speculation as to why they were there.

The DoD Law of War Manual provides, “[f]or example, a hospital may not be used as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition depot, or as a military observation post” (§ 7.10.3.1). Setting up a base in a medical compound would certainly qualify, but whether “resting, milling about, and eating” would is questionable.

Yet the rule simply removes the special protection medical facilities enjoy; absent intent to shield, there is no IHL violation.

I suspect that the brief nature of this section in the Amnesty report indicates that they KNOW that this is not a real IHL violation because using hospitals to shield military targets from attack is a very serious charge. If there were any validity to this, they would (and should) have spent more ink detailing their accusation.

Bonus: Neil Hauer, a reporter who spent a few days staying with Tom Mutch and Donatella Rovera in the same hotel in Kramatorsk in May, says that the latter has a pre-set agenda:
Donatella stayed in the same hotel as us for several days in Kramatorsk in May. It was quite clear from conversations that she had an agenda already - to be contrarian and 'well akshually Ukraine is just as bad' before she even began her fieldwork there.


Just logging on to say that this post was amazing, and the detail this explanation goes to is something to be commended. Kudos.
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Postby Luminesa » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:13 pm

Picairn wrote:Alright, so a lot more evidence just came out that proves Amnesty International's "report" was very poorly researched and rushed, including statements from field reporters who interacted with their report team and legal professors on this matter. I'll compile it here for NSG's benefit. Government sources are obviously excluded to prevent any accusation of bias.

1. Out-of-context claims

Tom Mutch, a New Zealander reporter who personally met and discussed the report with Donatella Rovera, the lead author of the report and Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher, and the Amnesty staff in Kramatorsk:
I was sat around a table with Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher predicting their upcoming report would land like a lead balloon. We were in the kitchen of our hotel in Kramatorsk, the administrative capital of Ukrainian controlled Donetsk and we could hear the boom of artillery outside our windows every hour.

Rather than expressing shock at the relentless Russian bombardment, the Amnesty staff seemed much more concerned with the fact that a Ukrainian army unit had taken refuge in the basement of a college building.

We’d all been to the building: an abandoned language school in the frontline town of Bakhmut which had been turned into a temporary barracks for a Ukrainian unit. This is not a war crime. A military is perfectly entitled to set up in an evacuated educational institution, although of course that building can no longer claim civilian protection and there was a mainly abandoned civilian apartment block over the road, which had not been fully evacuated.

But Rovera was insistent that this military presence in a populated area was a “violation of international humanitarian law”’. When I pressed her on how the Ukrainian Army was supposed to defend a populated area, she said that it was irrelevant.

By that logic, I continued, Ukraine would have to abandon the major locations such as the city of Kharkiv. “Well, they must avoid as far as possible taking positions in a populated area,” she replied. “International humanitarian law is very clear on this.”

I suggested her coming Amnesty International report would be received badly if it failed to differentiate between defensive and offensive operations in urban areas. But it appeared the authors’ minds had been made up: Ukraine was endangering its own civilians by the mere act of attempting to defend its cities.

[...] I was in one of the locations mentioned in the Amnesty report, a school block in the under-fire city of Lysychansk, with Ukrainian soldiers as they offered an evacuation ride to any civilian residents who wished to leave. Three did, and we traveled with them as we returned to safer locations. I had reported this all at the time.

If what Tom Mutch said is true, Amnesty committed an egregious error by omitting critical context that some of the buildings occupied by Ukrainian soldiers were already abandoned or evacuated at the time of research.

Bakhmut, one of the cities which Amnesty accused Ukraine of failing to evacuate, was in fact the subject of one of APNews' articles on Ukrainian evacuations.
“The Russians are right over there, and they’re closing in on this location,” Mark Poppert, an American volunteer working with British charity RefugEase, said during an evacuation in the town of Bakhmut on Friday.

“Bakhmut is a high-risk area right now,” he said. “We’re trying to get as many people out as we can in case the Ukrainians have to fall back.”

He and other Ukrainian and foreign volunteers working with the Ukrainian charity Vostok SOS, which was coordinating the evacuation effort, were hoping to get about 100 people out of Bakhmut on Friday, Poppert said.

[...] Most people have already fled Bakhmut: only around 30,000 remain from a pre-war population of 85,000. And more are leaving each day.

Amnesty saying they have no info or were not aware of Ukrainian evacuations of civilians from the frontline is horribly wrong and ignorant. This isn't even a contest.

Russian attacks halt plans to evacuate Ukrainian civilians | March 6

Civilians in eastern Ukraine told to evacuate as Russian forces regroup | April 6

Ukraine Rushes to Evacuate Civilians in East as Russia’s Offensive Pushes Forward | April 19

Third Humanitarian Convoy Under Way to Evacuate Civilians from Besieged Ukraine City, Secretary-General Tells Security Council | May 6

All civilians evacuate Mariupol’s Azovstal | May 8

Ukraine struggles to evacuate civilians from devastated eastern city | June 14

Ukraine evacuates civilians from Sloviansk as Russian troops advance | July 6

Zelensky orders civilians to evacuate Donetsk region | July 31

2. Misrepresentations of international law

Amnesty's claim on this subject is maximalist.
We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.

In other words, Ukrainians are committing war crimes.

Here is what the International Red Cross says about criminal liability under international law:
In fact, it is generally recognized that the defender’s obligations do not create individual criminal liability.

A current imbalance in individual criminal responsibility exists, where an attacker can commit a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions in at least five different ways, but the defender who is in the best position to protect civilians in urban environments faces no such liability.

As the Red Cross publishes, it is legally impossible for Ukraine to have committed war crimes in this context. They may, however, have other obligations.

In Article 58 and 59 of Additional Protocol I, the defender's obligations are detailed.
It is important to underline that a party is not required to evacuate civilians or civilian objects from any built-up area as such, but only to remove them from the vicinity of military objectives.

A defending party may go further and evacuate civilians in accordance with Article 17 of the Fourth Geneva Convention—a point reinforced by the reference to Article 49 of the Convention made in Article 58(a)—but it is not obliged to do so.

And Article 58 either does not apply to urban warfare or gives plenty of leeway for the defenders due to its wording around feasibility:
Article 58(b) directs the parties to avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas. At the diplomatic conference, several states voiced concerns that this obligation could curtail their right to take the most efficient measures necessary for the defence of their national territory. Since the precautionary duties under Article 58 apply only to the maximum extent feasible, France suggested in the case of densely populated territories such as those of metropolitan France, Article 58(b) “could not really become operative” at all (Official Records of the Diplomatic Conference, Vol 6, 213). Italy declared that “it is clear that a State with a densely populated territory could not allow that provision to hamper the organization of its defence” (ibid, 235).

... as France emphasized, the obligation extends only to what is feasible—which is generally understood to demand only measures that are “practicable or practically possible, taking into account all circumstances existing at the relevant time, including those circumstances relevant to the success of military operations” (ibid, 232).

Parties to the conflict will have to weigh whether they can avoid placing military objectives within or near densely populated areas without compromising the successful defense of the area. This decision has more to do with a judgment as to what is practicable—all things considered—rather than what is practically possible. Factors that should feed into this assessment include the nature of the military objectives involved, the military significance of the populated area, the hostile action expected from an adversary and the extent and nature of the civilian harm that the placement of military objectives would pose, as well as the availability and effect of any mitigating measures.

In short, Ukrainians can't be criminally liable for placing civilians near military objectives, and they have no legal obligation to move their military units if the military objective is important enough.

Amnesty attempted to address this with two sentences in their report:
Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas.

They provide no other evidence as to what viable alternatives were available. They neglected to mention that these built-up areas were military objectives precisely because they were civilian areas that the Russians wanted to take. And they did not make an assessment that balances the military objective with the risk to civilians in those situations. How could they? They're not experts on the Ukrainian military.

Here's what Jack Watling, Senior Research Fellow - Land Warfare, says about that:
The Amnesty report demonstrates a weak understanding of the laws of armed conflict, no understanding of military operations, and indulges in insinuations without supplying supporting evidence.

It is not a violation of IHL for Ukrainian military personnel to situate themselves in the terrain they are tasked to defend rather than in some random piece of adjacent woodland where they can be bypassed.

The Ukrainian military has regularly urged civilians to leave areas of fighting and facilitated them doing so. Forcing displacement is itself a violation of IHL and throughout history many civilians have chosen to remain in areas where there are ongoing military operations.

In setting unattainable expectations of civilian protection, Amnesty trivialises an important issue.

Here is what UN war crimes investigator Marc Garlasco says:
They got the law wrong. Protocol 1 states militaries shall to the maximum extent feasible AVOID locating military objects near populated areas.

Ukraine can place forces in areas they are defending - especially in urban warfare. There is no requirement to stand shoulder to shoulder in a field - this isn’t the 19th century. Ukraine still has an OBLIGATION to protect civilians - but they are taking steps to do so like helping civilians relocate.

And here is what Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt says:

Amnesty International’s allegation of unlawful conduct by Ukraine is unconvincing. IHL is a nuanced body of law because it must carefully balance two sometimes competing interests – military necessity and humanitarian considerations.

In my estimation, Amnesty International has acted irresponsibly by making the claim without providing supporting evidence, citing the specific rules that it believes have been violated, or laying out its legal analysis. These failures have deprived Ukraine of a meaningful opportunity to respond and the international community of an ability to properly assess it.

I urge the organization to immediately remedy the situation by releasing its evidence and explaining the legal basis for its conclusion that the conduct violates IHL. As the entity leveling a charge of unlawful conduct, some of which could qualify as a grave breach of IHL, Amnesty International bears the burdens of persuasion and proof. It has not met that burden.

Given that the entire obligation here hinges on the balance between military and civilian needs, and that the civilian needs are intertwined with military objectives in urban combat, the most important question of whether Ukraine failed to fulfill their obligation went unaddressed in Amnesty's report.

Instead, Amnesty merely claims they failed them. This is poor reporting and worse advocacy.

3. Military units in hospitals

Amnesty claims that Ukraine set up military bases in hospitals. This is one part of their claim which could constitute criminal liability, as it's clear in international law that the misuse of protected symbols such as the red cross is a war crime.

Their report goes:
Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.

Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.

Their claim is factually incorrect. Using hospitals for military purposes is not a clear violation of IHL. There are many permissible military uses for hospitals.

One of them is military hospitals. Many of them exist throughout the world, and there is nothing war criminal about them. Some of them exist in war zones as well. For example, the Egyptian Field Hospital at Bagram Airbase that treated 7,000 patients at its peak (for free) was set up in about as "military objective" a place as could be in Afghanistan. It was located right next to the tarmac where the US Air Force was flying missions out of.

It is also perfectly acceptable that civilian hospitals are used to treat and house military personnel. They have in the past, and there is no specific prohibition against that in IHL, as long as there is no intent to shield the combatants inside from enemies.

Another legal military use for hospitals is for the treatment of captured prisoners of war. In fact, IHL specifically obligates militaries to provide adequate medical treatment for POWs.

As Distinguished Professor of International Law Michael Schmitt writes:
The critical provision with respect to the reported behavior is Article 12(4) of Additional Protocol I. It provides, “Under no circumstances shall medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack.” But the rule is limited. The mere presence of military personnel in or near medical facilities (aside from those guarding the facility or being treated) is not unlawful absent an intent to shield. Amnesty International cites no facts unambiguously demonstrating such an intent, leaving only speculation as to why they were there.

The DoD Law of War Manual provides, “[f]or example, a hospital may not be used as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition depot, or as a military observation post” (§ 7.10.3.1). Setting up a base in a medical compound would certainly qualify, but whether “resting, milling about, and eating” would is questionable.

Yet the rule simply removes the special protection medical facilities enjoy; absent intent to shield, there is no IHL violation.

I suspect that the brief nature of this section in the Amnesty report indicates that they KNOW that this is not a real IHL violation because using hospitals to shield military targets from attack is a very serious charge. If there were any validity to this, they would (and should) have spent more ink detailing their accusation.

Bonus: Neil Hauer, a reporter who spent a few days staying with Tom Mutch and Donatella Rovera in the same hotel in Kramatorsk in May, says that the latter has a pre-set agenda:
Donatella stayed in the same hotel as us for several days in Kramatorsk in May. It was quite clear from conversations that she had an agenda already - to be contrarian and 'well akshually Ukraine is just as bad' before she even began her fieldwork there.

So Amnesty proved what we already knew about most pro-Russian propaganda: that it was incorrect.
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Postby Picairn » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:23 pm

More deeper strikes behind the frontline by Ukraine: A Russian ammunition depot near Novooleksiivka, Kherson Oblast and the Novofedorivka Airbase in Crimea have been attacked.
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:49 pm

Picairn wrote:More deeper strikes behind the frontline by Ukraine: A Russian ammunition depot near Novooleksiivka, Kherson Oblast and the Novofedorivka Airbase in Crimea have been attacked.


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Postby Prima Scriptura » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:31 pm

The borders, language and culture crowd should be pulling for Ukraine. Instead they support Russia because cause they believe Putin is fighting the “gLoBal HoMo”
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:32 pm

What is the likelihood that Ukraine would or could, pull off a Mossad? Where the Ukrainian state sends assassination teams/agents into Russia to intentionally try to eliminate everyone behind or connected to pushing war against Ukraine (who are sufficiently high ranking) within Russia?
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:27 pm

Saiwania wrote:What is the likelihood that Ukraine would or could, pull off a Mossad? Where the Ukrainian state sends assassination teams/agents into Russia to intentionally try to eliminate everyone behind or connected to pushing war against Ukraine (who are sufficiently high ranking) within Russia?

Average. Just enough to make folks paranoid enough to make sweeping purges.
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:36 pm

Saiwania wrote:What is the likelihood that Ukraine would or could, pull off a Mossad? Where the Ukrainian state sends assassination teams/agents into Russia to intentionally try to eliminate everyone behind or connected to pushing war against Ukraine (who are sufficiently high ranking) within Russia?


I say the possibility is less than 10%. It would be based if Ukraine did that, but it looks like it’s only concern about it’s own borders and sovereignty.
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Continental Free States
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Postby Continental Free States » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:45 pm

Picairn wrote:More deeper strikes behind the frontline by Ukraine: A Russian ammunition depot near Novooleksiivka, Kherson Oblast and the Novofedorivka Airbase in Crimea have been attacked.

Isn't Crimea like, almost as well-defended as Moscow itself at this point? Wonder why anyone's actually buying Russian air defense systems if Ukraine can just strike Crimea at will.
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Based Illinois
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Postby Based Illinois » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:51 pm

Saiwania wrote:What is the likelihood that Ukraine would or could, pull off a Mossad? Where the Ukrainian state sends assassination teams/agents into Russia to intentionally try to eliminate everyone behind or connected to pushing war against Ukraine (who are sufficiently high ranking) within Russia?


Considering the fact that Ukraine is kind of collapsing at the moment, and Russia boasts one of the most formidable intelligence services on the planet, I'd say pretty unlikely.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:01 pm

Based Illinois wrote:
Saiwania wrote:What is the likelihood that Ukraine would or could, pull off a Mossad? Where the Ukrainian state sends assassination teams/agents into Russia to intentionally try to eliminate everyone behind or connected to pushing war against Ukraine (who are sufficiently high ranking) within Russia?


Considering the fact that Ukraine is kind of collapsing at the moment, and Russia boasts one of the most formidable intelligence services on the planet, I'd say pretty unlikely.


Also, the Russian high command likely employs some of the best trained elite guards in the world.

It’s highly unlikely Ukrainian special forces could outshoot them in a protracted gun battle.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:14 pm

Based Illinois wrote:
Saiwania wrote:What is the likelihood that Ukraine would or could, pull off a Mossad? Where the Ukrainian state sends assassination teams/agents into Russia to intentionally try to eliminate everyone behind or connected to pushing war against Ukraine (who are sufficiently high ranking) within Russia?


Considering the fact that Ukraine is kind of collapsing at the moment, and Russia boasts one of the most formidable intelligence services on the planet, I'd say pretty unlikely.


If Ukraine is collapsing how is Russia on the back foot everywhere?
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:19 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Based Illinois wrote:
Considering the fact that Ukraine is kind of collapsing at the moment, and Russia boasts one of the most formidable intelligence services on the planet, I'd say pretty unlikely.


If Ukraine is collapsing how is Russia on the back foot everywhere?

According to the Russians themselves their military is just so incompetent it regularly destroys its own ships and airfields because they can’t stop smoking around ammo dumps.

Regardless a country on the verge of collapse Ukraine is not.
Last edited by Adamede on Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:27 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivPost/sta ... cKfUA&s=34
Welp
Some ppl are running for their lives... in the other direction... away from Crimea
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Based Illinois
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Postby Based Illinois » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:31 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Based Illinois wrote:
Considering the fact that Ukraine is kind of collapsing at the moment, and Russia boasts one of the most formidable intelligence services on the planet, I'd say pretty unlikely.


If Ukraine is collapsing how is Russia on the back foot everywhere?


Where is Russia on the backfoot... anywhere?

The only place I could think of where Ukraine is making any progress is in the southern counter offensive, and after almost a month they've only managed to liberate like three villages. Even the Ukrainian military has admitted that they're running dangerously low on munitions, which they'll need if they plan on actually standing a chance on retaking Kherson.

So, where did you get the idea that Russia is on the backfoot?

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:58 pm

Based Illinois wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
If Ukraine is collapsing how is Russia on the back foot everywhere?


Where is Russia on the backfoot... anywhere?

The only place I could think of where Ukraine is making any progress is in the southern counter offensive, and after almost a month they've only managed to liberate like three villages. Even the Ukrainian military has admitted that they're running dangerously low on munitions, which they'll need if they plan on actually standing a chance on retaking Kherson.

So, where did you get the idea that Russia is on the backfoot?


Where did you get the idea that Ukraine is collapsing?

Or is that another "they'll fold any day now Russia said so"?
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Based Illinois
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Postby Based Illinois » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:25 am

Vassenor wrote:
Based Illinois wrote:
Where is Russia on the backfoot... anywhere?

The only place I could think of where Ukraine is making any progress is in the southern counter offensive, and after almost a month they've only managed to liberate like three villages. Even the Ukrainian military has admitted that they're running dangerously low on munitions, which they'll need if they plan on actually standing a chance on retaking Kherson.

So, where did you get the idea that Russia is on the backfoot?


Where did you get the idea that Ukraine is collapsing?

Or is that another "they'll fold any day now Russia said so"?


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/08/04/uk ... lapse-aid/

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 433146.cms

https://www.axios.com/2022/03/20/ukrain ... ssian-ties

https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine

In addition to the economic collapse, the fledgling efficiency of western aid, enormous depopulation from refugees, grave munitions shortages, and the politically hostile climate which Zelensky has been fermenting behind his own frontlines, I've heard that the Ukrainian army is beginning suffer sever manpower shortages as well ( though without as much means of making up for it like what the russians have been experiencing ). Ukraine is not in a good position, and at this point seems to be propt up entirely by what western aid it can get. The recent counter offensive in the south seems less to me like a comeback, and more like their version of the Ardennes offensive.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:32 am

https://www.axios.com/2022/03/20/ukrain ... ssian-ties

You know who else banned parties in wartime?
Sweden, when we banned the progenitor of the Left Party in 1939.
Britain, who carted the Duke of Windsor off to Bahamas and put Mosley in house arrest.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Based Illinois
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Postby Based Illinois » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:38 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
https://www.axios.com/2022/03/20/ukrain ... ssian-ties

You know who else banned parties in wartime?
Sweden, when we banned the progenitor of the Left Party in 1939.
Britain, who carted the Duke of Windsor off to Bahamas and put Mosley in house arrest.


Sweden and Britain were highly stable democracies that didn't have massive criminal organzations and violent internal seperatist movements threatening their government.

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:01 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Also, the Russian high command likely employs some of the best trained elite guards in the world.

It’s highly unlikely Ukrainian special forces could outshoot them in a protracted gun battle.

Is this from real life or from the movies?
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