Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Thermodolia]

I don’t even have a Ukrainian sticker or whatever lol.


Ah there you go denying genocide again. Nice to know that you are no better than Turks who deny the genocide of Armenians, Japanese who deny they genocided Chinese, and neo Nazis who deny that the Jews where executed in mass by the Nazi regime.


Then why is Russia invading Ukraine and killing Ukrainians?

Why don't you learn about what happened in Donbas, NATO's gradual and illegal expansion?

What the fact that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine in 2014 to claim that a bunch of “Russian minorities” wanted to break away?

Also there’s nothing wrong with nations wanting protection from a bully who invades its neighbors at random

[The Two Jerseys]

We literally are seeing rape and death everywhere in Ukraine where the Russians occupied it

No, you're reading about it in the newspapers because, you know, they never lie.

Bucha was bullshit. I have previously explained in what context.

Newspapers?

This is the West, unlike Russia we've moved beyond the 19th Century...

[Fahran]

Mass graves is a skew of the truth. First they claimed they were cremating civilian casualties, now they just bury them?

412 people were murdered in Bucha - many shot or tortured to death with their arms bound behind their backs. Girls as young as fourteen were gang-raped by Russian soldiers. While this has been the most talked about massacre, and act of genocide, throughout the duration of the war, the UN and humanitarian organizations have detailed multiple such instances of massacres and war-rape. In Manhush. In Mariupol. In and around Kyiv.

Source.

Normally, I'd be a touch annoyed by the blatant falsehoods, but, perhaps, people might stumble upon our discussion and look at the evidence themselves. I can link to reporters, satellite images, first-hand accounts of soldiers and foreign volunteers, humanitarian organizations, the UN, multiple governments, etc. We can rest assured not all of them are lying.

Where do you think happens to Ukrainian soldiers who give their lives for nothing?

G-d judges them according to their actions. That said, to die in defense of one's homeland is a mark of courage, honor, and sacrifice, and I do not believe G-d would judge them harshly on that account. The Russian soldiers who have raped or murdered children? They will be judged accordingly when their bodies become fertilizer for sunflowers.

Why don't you pass a state media article?

I have already. I'll link it again though.

Russian internal propaganda seems to indicate a broader genocidal outlook and intent on the part of the Kremlin.

This is the situation Ukraine has found itself in. The fact that the Ukrainian voter was choosing between the “Poroshenko peace” and the “Zelenskyy peace” must not deceive you: Ukrainians were quite happy with the shortest way to peace via a blitzkrieg, which was strongly alluded to by the last two Ukrainian presidents when they were elected. This was the method used to “pacify” home antifascists in Odesa, Kharkiv, Dnipro[the RU original uses the city’s former name “Dnipropetrovsk”], Mariupol, and other Russian cities — the method of total terror. And ordinary Ukrainians were fine with it. Denazification is a set of actions aimed at the nazified bulk of the population, who technically cannot be directly punished as war criminals.

Those Nazis who took up arms must be destroyed on the battlefield, as many of them as possible. No significant distinction should be made between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called “nationalist battalions,” as well as the Territorial Defense, who have joined the two other types of military units. They are all equally complicit in the horrendous violence towards civilians, equally complicit in the genocide of the Russian people, and they don’t comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis must be punished in such a way as to provide an example and a demonstration. A total lustration must be conducted. All organizations involved in Nazi actions must be eliminated and prohibited. However, besides the highest ranks, a significant number of common people are also guilty of being passive Nazis and Nazi accomplices. They supported the Nazi authorities and pandered to them. A just punishment for this part of the population can only be possible through bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and sparingly as possible relates civilians. The further denazification of this bulk of the population will take the form of re-education through ideological repressions (suppression) of Nazi paradigms and a harsh censorship not only in the political sphere but also in the spheres of culture and education. It was through culture and education that the pervasive large-scale Nazification of the population was conducted, ensured by the guarantees of dividends from the Nazi regime victory over Russia, by the Nazi propaganda, internal violence and terror, and the 8-year-long war against the people of Donbas, who have rebelled against the Ukrainian Nazism.

Denazification can only be conducted by the winner, which means (1) their unconditional control over the denazification process and (2) the authority that can ensure such control. For this purpose, a country that is being denazified cannot possess sovereignty. The denazifier state, Russia, cannot take a liberal approach towards denazification. The denazifier ideology cannot be challenged by the guilty party that is being denazified. When Russia admits that Ukraine needs to be denazified, it essentially admits that the Crimea scenario cannot be applied to the whole Ukraine. In all fairness, this scenario was also not possible in the insurgent Donbas in 2014. Only the 8-year-long rebellion against the Nazi violence and terror managed to result in an internal unification and deliberate, explicit, broad-scale refusal of retaining any association with or relation to Ukraine, who has identified itself as a Nazi community.

The period of denazification can take no less than one generation that has to be born, brought upm and mature under the conditions of denazification. The nazification of Ukraine has been going on for more than 30 years — starting from as early as 1989, when Ukrainian nationalism was given legal and legitimate forms of political self-expression and led the movement for “independence”, setting a course for Nazism.

The current nazified Ukraine is characterized by its formlessness and ambivalence, which allow it to disguise Nazism as the aspiration to “independence” and the “European” (Western, pro-American) path of “development” (in reality, to degradation) and claim that “there is no Nazism” in Ukraine, “only few sporadic incidents.” Indeed, there isn’t a main Nazi party, no Führer, no full-fledged racial laws (only a cutdown version in the form of repressions against the Russian language). As a result — no opposition or resistance against the regime.

However, all listed above doesn’t make Ukrainian Nazism a “light version” of the German Nazism of the first half of the 20th century. Quite the opposite: since Ukrainian Nazism is free from such “genre” norms and limitations (which are essentially a product of political technologies), it can spread freely just like a basis for any Nazism — both European and, in its most developed form, the American racism. That’s why there can be no compromise during denazification, as in the case of the “no to NATO, yes to EU” formula. The collective West is in itself the architect, source, and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Banderite supporters from Western Ukraine and their “historical memory” is just one of the tools of the nazification of Ukraine. Ukronazism poses a much bigger threat to the world and Russia than the Hitler version of German Nazism.

Apparently, the name “Ukraine” cannot be kept as a title of any fully denazified state entity on the territory liberated from the Nazi regime. The people’s republics, newly created on the territories free from Nazism, must and will develop on the basis of practices of economic self-government and social security, restoration and modernization of systems of essential services for the population.

Their political direction cannot be neutral in practice: the redemption of their guilt before Russia for treating it like an enemy can be manifested only by relying on Russia in the processes of restoration, revival, and development. No “Marshall Plans” can be allowed to happen on these territories. No “neutrality” in the ideological and practical sense that is compatible with denazification can be possible. Individuals and organizations who are to become tools of denazification in the new denazified republics cannot but rely on the direct organizational and force support from Russia.

Denazification will inevitably include de-ukrainization — the rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component in the self-identification of the population of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya territories, which was started by the Soviet authorities. Being a tool of the Communist superpower, this artificial ethnocentrism was not left unclaimed after its fall. It was transferred in its subservient role to a different superpower (the power above states) — the superpower of the West. It needs to be brought back within its natural boundaries and stripped of political functionality.

Unlike, for example, Georgia or the Baltic States, history has proved it impossible for Ukraine to exist as a nation-state, and any attempts to “build” such a nation-state naturally lead to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construct that has no civilizational substance of its own, a subordinate element of an extraneous and alien civilization. Debanderization alone will not be enough for denazification: the Banderite element is only a hand and a screen, a disguise for the European project of the Nazi Ukraine, which is why the denazification of Ukraine means its inevitable de-europeanization.

The Banderite elites must be eliminated; their re-education is impossible. The social “bog,” which has actively and passively supported them through action and inaction, must go through the hardships of war and internalize the lived experience as a historical lesson and the redemption of its guilt. Those who didn’t support the Nazi regime and suffered from it and the war it started in Donbas must be consolidated and organized, must become the backbone of the new authorities, their vertical and horizontal framework. History has shown that the tragedies and dramas of the war time benefit the peoples who were tempted and carried away by their role as the enemy of Russia.

Essentially, the author, who it must be stressed is presenting state-approved propaganda and narratives intended for internal consumption, conflates Ukrainian identity and self-determination with Nazism, going on to assert that the Denazification of Ukraine necessarily entails the de-Ukrainization of Ukraine. We're not left unilluminated on the meaning here either - since the author goes on to spell out his meaning in explicit terms. He means to advocate the rejection of Ukrainian independence and self-determination, as well as the existence of Ukrainian ethnic identity in what he previously refers to as Russian cities and territories. The Russian government is spreading propaganda that can be very easily perceived as genocidal in nature at a time when it is carrying out war crimes against civilians.

[Thermodolia]

We literally are seeing rape and death everywhere in Ukraine where the Russians occupied it

No, you're reading about it in the newspapers because, you know, they never lie.

No I saw it on the internet, Reddit, & via my buddies in country days before the media picked it up. I don’t read the news unless friends send me things and I share it here.

Bucha was bullshit. I have previously explained in what context.

Ah yes Bucha was faked just like the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of others was faked.

Do you really want to be forever known as a genocide denier?

[Samudera Darussalam]

have you heard of hakko ichiu? Literally the same shit you tried to cram down our throats rn but with Russians at the top instead of Japanese.

Back then they could hide everything. Not anymore. If this was worse than Nanking, we would see rape and death everywhere, which is not the case.

There are literally multiple news articles about that.

[Ethel mermania]

Its about time, Biden asks xi, through appropriate channels, if the war becomes nuclear, who's side will they be on?

[Fahran]

Why don't you learn about what happened in Donbas, NATO's gradual and illegal expansion?

I'm aware of Russia's policy of weaponizing Russian minorities in neighboring states to create satellite republics. This is often done with extensive support from Russian intelligence and military assets, often with a very thin veneer of plausible deniability. This particular conflict, which was instigated by Russia, began as early as 2014.

And NATO's expansion isn't illegal. A verbal promise made to the premier of the USSR and related to East Germany has no legal basis when we're discussing a formal alliance voluntarily joined by multiple states wary of Russian, not Soviet, aggression.

[Kot Unduk]

No, you're reading about it in the newspapers because, you know, they never lie.

No I saw it on the internet, Reddit, & via my buddies in country days before the media picked it up. I don’t read the news unless friends send me things and I share it here.

Bucha was bullshit. I have previously explained in what context.

Ah yes Bucha was faked just like the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of others was faked.

Do you really want to be forever known as a genocide denier?

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

[Thermodolia]

Its about time, Biden asks xi, through appropriate channels, if the war becomes nuclear, who's side will they be on?

Id assume that China would want to be on the side that butters their bread. But what do i know. Maybe Xi is fine with his economic going to shit without the US

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Its about time, Biden asks xi, through appropriate channels, if the war becomes nuclear, who's side will they be on?

Id assume that China would want to be on the side that butters their bread. But what do i know. Maybe Xi is fine with his economic going to shit without the US

If Chairman Xi shits on his own economy he has nothing left. They've already ran out of money to feed the retired party elders with their "retirement funds" years ago and is currently figuring out how to make more taxable serfs.

[Heloin]

Its about time, Biden asks xi, through appropriate channels, if the war becomes nuclear, who's side will they be on?

I can’t imagine Biden asking Xi a more idiotic question. This is a war that has nothing to do with China or their interests so what would a question that sounds like a threat accomplish?

[Thermodolia]

No I saw it on the internet, Reddit, & via my buddies in country days before the media picked it up. I don’t read the news unless friends send me things and I share it here.


Ah yes Bucha was faked just like the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of others was faked.

Do you really want to be forever known as a genocide denier?

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

Multiple people literally did film what happened and uploaded it to the internet. Unless you are legitimately blind I’m not sure how you didn’t see it.

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

So do we.

Back then they could hide everything. Not anymore. If this was worse than Nanking, we would see rape and death everywhere, which is not the case.

There are literally multiple news articles about that.

Mass graves is a skew of the truth. First they claimed they were cremating civilian casualties, now they just bury them?

412 people were murdered in Bucha - many shot or tortured to death with their arms bound behind their backs. Girls as young as fourteen were gang-raped by Russian soldiers. While this has been the most talked about massacre, and act of genocide, throughout the duration of the war, the UN and humanitarian organizations have detailed multiple such instances of massacres and war-rape. In Manhush. In Mariupol. In and around Kyiv.

Source.

Normally, I'd be a touch annoyed by the blatant falsehoods, but, perhaps, people might stumble upon our discussion and look at the evidence themselves. I can link to reporters, satellite images, first-hand accounts of soldiers and foreign volunteers, humanitarian organizations, the UN, multiple governments, etc. We can rest assured not all of them are lying.

Where do you think happens to Ukrainian soldiers who give their lives for nothing?

G-d judges them according to their actions. That said, to die in defense of one's homeland is a mark of courage, honor, and sacrifice, and I do not believe G-d would judge them harshly on that account. The Russian soldiers who have raped or murdered children? They will be judged accordingly when their bodies become fertilizer for sunflowers.

Why don't you pass a state media article?

I have already. I'll link it again though.

Russian internal propaganda seems to indicate a broader genocidal outlook and intent on the part of the Kremlin.

This is the situation Ukraine has found itself in. The fact that the Ukrainian voter was choosing between the “Poroshenko peace” and the “Zelenskyy peace” must not deceive you: Ukrainians were quite happy with the shortest way to peace via a blitzkrieg, which was strongly alluded to by the last two Ukrainian presidents when they were elected. This was the method used to “pacify” home antifascists in Odesa, Kharkiv, Dnipro[the RU original uses the city’s former name “Dnipropetrovsk”], Mariupol, and other Russian cities — the method of total terror. And ordinary Ukrainians were fine with it. Denazification is a set of actions aimed at the nazified bulk of the population, who technically cannot be directly punished as war criminals.

Those Nazis who took up arms must be destroyed on the battlefield, as many of them as possible. No significant distinction should be made between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called “nationalist battalions,” as well as the Territorial Defense, who have joined the two other types of military units. They are all equally complicit in the horrendous violence towards civilians, equally complicit in the genocide of the Russian people, and they don’t comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis must be punished in such a way as to provide an example and a demonstration. A total lustration must be conducted. All organizations involved in Nazi actions must be eliminated and prohibited. However, besides the highest ranks, a significant number of common people are also guilty of being passive Nazis and Nazi accomplices. They supported the Nazi authorities and pandered to them. A just punishment for this part of the population can only be possible through bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and sparingly as possible relates civilians. The further denazification of this bulk of the population will take the form of re-education through ideological repressions (suppression) of Nazi paradigms and a harsh censorship not only in the political sphere but also in the spheres of culture and education. It was through culture and education that the pervasive large-scale Nazification of the population was conducted, ensured by the guarantees of dividends from the Nazi regime victory over Russia, by the Nazi propaganda, internal violence and terror, and the 8-year-long war against the people of Donbas, who have rebelled against the Ukrainian Nazism.

Denazification can only be conducted by the winner, which means (1) their unconditional control over the denazification process and (2) the authority that can ensure such control. For this purpose, a country that is being denazified cannot possess sovereignty. The denazifier state, Russia, cannot take a liberal approach towards denazification. The denazifier ideology cannot be challenged by the guilty party that is being denazified. When Russia admits that Ukraine needs to be denazified, it essentially admits that the Crimea scenario cannot be applied to the whole Ukraine. In all fairness, this scenario was also not possible in the insurgent Donbas in 2014. Only the 8-year-long rebellion against the Nazi violence and terror managed to result in an internal unification and deliberate, explicit, broad-scale refusal of retaining any association with or relation to Ukraine, who has identified itself as a Nazi community.

The period of denazification can take no less than one generation that has to be born, brought upm and mature under the conditions of denazification. The nazification of Ukraine has been going on for more than 30 years — starting from as early as 1989, when Ukrainian nationalism was given legal and legitimate forms of political self-expression and led the movement for “independence”, setting a course for Nazism.

The current nazified Ukraine is characterized by its formlessness and ambivalence, which allow it to disguise Nazism as the aspiration to “independence” and the “European” (Western, pro-American) path of “development” (in reality, to degradation) and claim that “there is no Nazism” in Ukraine, “only few sporadic incidents.” Indeed, there isn’t a main Nazi party, no Führer, no full-fledged racial laws (only a cutdown version in the form of repressions against the Russian language). As a result — no opposition or resistance against the regime.

However, all listed above doesn’t make Ukrainian Nazism a “light version” of the German Nazism of the first half of the 20th century. Quite the opposite: since Ukrainian Nazism is free from such “genre” norms and limitations (which are essentially a product of political technologies), it can spread freely just like a basis for any Nazism — both European and, in its most developed form, the American racism. That’s why there can be no compromise during denazification, as in the case of the “no to NATO, yes to EU” formula. The collective West is in itself the architect, source, and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Banderite supporters from Western Ukraine and their “historical memory” is just one of the tools of the nazification of Ukraine. Ukronazism poses a much bigger threat to the world and Russia than the Hitler version of German Nazism.

Apparently, the name “Ukraine” cannot be kept as a title of any fully denazified state entity on the territory liberated from the Nazi regime. The people’s republics, newly created on the territories free from Nazism, must and will develop on the basis of practices of economic self-government and social security, restoration and modernization of systems of essential services for the population.

Their political direction cannot be neutral in practice: the redemption of their guilt before Russia for treating it like an enemy can be manifested only by relying on Russia in the processes of restoration, revival, and development. No “Marshall Plans” can be allowed to happen on these territories. No “neutrality” in the ideological and practical sense that is compatible with denazification can be possible. Individuals and organizations who are to become tools of denazification in the new denazified republics cannot but rely on the direct organizational and force support from Russia.

Denazification will inevitably include de-ukrainization — the rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component in the self-identification of the population of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya territories, which was started by the Soviet authorities. Being a tool of the Communist superpower, this artificial ethnocentrism was not left unclaimed after its fall. It was transferred in its subservient role to a different superpower (the power above states) — the superpower of the West. It needs to be brought back within its natural boundaries and stripped of political functionality.

Unlike, for example, Georgia or the Baltic States, history has proved it impossible for Ukraine to exist as a nation-state, and any attempts to “build” such a nation-state naturally lead to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construct that has no civilizational substance of its own, a subordinate element of an extraneous and alien civilization. Debanderization alone will not be enough for denazification: the Banderite element is only a hand and a screen, a disguise for the European project of the Nazi Ukraine, which is why the denazification of Ukraine means its inevitable de-europeanization.

The Banderite elites must be eliminated; their re-education is impossible. The social “bog,” which has actively and passively supported them through action and inaction, must go through the hardships of war and internalize the lived experience as a historical lesson and the redemption of its guilt. Those who didn’t support the Nazi regime and suffered from it and the war it started in Donbas must be consolidated and organized, must become the backbone of the new authorities, their vertical and horizontal framework. History has shown that the tragedies and dramas of the war time benefit the peoples who were tempted and carried away by their role as the enemy of Russia.

Essentially, the author, who it must be stressed is presenting state-approved propaganda and narratives intended for internal consumption, conflates Ukrainian identity and self-determination with Nazism, going on to assert that the Denazification of Ukraine necessarily entails the de-Ukrainization of Ukraine. We're not left unilluminated on the meaning here either - since the author goes on to spell out his meaning in explicit terms. He means to advocate the rejection of Ukrainian independence and self-determination, as well as the existence of Ukrainian ethnic identity in what he previously refers to as Russian cities and territories. The Russian government is spreading propaganda that can be very easily perceived as genocidal in nature at a time when it is carrying out war crimes against civilians.

[Fahran]

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

We have images of the bodies. We have testimony from survivors. Quite a few in fact. So... anyway... We have some footage as well, but sharing it here would violate site rules.

[Ethel mermania]

Its about time, Biden asks xi, through appropriate channels, if the war becomes nuclear, who's side will they be on?

Id assume that China would want to be on the side that butters their bread. But what do i know. Maybe Xi is fine with his economic going to shit without the US

Currently China is acting on Russia's side. I think its time a message is sent, that things are expected to get worse. Hopefully putin gets a heads up from Xi, the question has been asked.

[Kot Unduk]

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

We have images of the bodies. We have testimony from survivors. Quite a few in fact. So... anyway... We have some footage as well, but sharing it here would violate site rules.

The men in those videos are members of an Azov-offshoot batallion. They did Bucha.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

We have images of the bodies. We have testimony from survivors. Quite a few in fact. So... anyway... We have some footage as well, but sharing it here would violate site rules.

The men in those videos are members of an Azov-offshoot batallion. They did Bucha.

and the Nanking Massacre never happened
*eyeroll*

[Tarsonis]

No I saw it on the internet, Reddit, & via my buddies in country days before the media picked it up. I don’t read the news unless friends send me things and I share it here.


Ah yes Bucha was faked just like the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of others was faked.

Do you really want to be forever known as a genocide denier?

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

no you had a blog post that tried to pass conjecture off as a fact, and you bought into it because you want to.

[Kot Unduk]

The men in those videos are members of an Azov-offshoot batallion. They did Bucha.

and the Nanking Massacre never happened
*eyeroll*

Nanking happened. Bucha happened. Bucha was committed by the Azovs.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

and the Nanking Massacre never happened
*eyeroll*

Nanking happened. Bucha happened. Bucha was committed by the Azovs.

So did the Chinamen themselves commit Nanking?

[Ethel mermania]

Its about time, Biden asks xi, through appropriate channels, if the war becomes nuclear, who's side will they be on?

I can’t imagine Biden asking Xi a more idiotic question. This is a war that has nothing to do with China or their interests so what would a question that sounds like a threat accomplish?

Its more of a heads up to putin to cut the nuclear rhetoric. Xi will pass it on. I am not so certain this isn't going to end without a nuclear exchange

.
I think asking can Joe sleep with Mrs xi, Would be a far more idiotic question

[Kot Unduk]

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

no you had a blog post that tried to pass conjecture off as a fact, and you bought into it because you want to.

It had facts.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

no you had a blog post that tried to pass conjecture off as a fact, and you bought into it because you want to.

It had facts.

sure
alternative facts

[The Two Jerseys]

No I saw it on the internet, Reddit, & via my buddies in country days before the media picked it up. I don’t read the news unless friends send me things and I share it here.


Ah yes Bucha was faked just like the murder of 6 million Jews and millions of others was faked.

Do you really want to be forever known as a genocide denier?

Bucha had a considerable population. Not one person could film it and upload something to the internet?

I aslo have an article explaining what actually happened backed up by actual evidence.

Maybe nobody filmed the massacre in the act because standing around filming armed men murdering women and children on your iPhone is a good way to get shot?

[Kot Unduk]

Nanking happened. Bucha happened. Bucha was committed by the Azovs.

So did the Chinamen themselves commit Nanking?

The japanese raped and killed Chinese. What you are saying is idiotic. You are constructing a straw man; he doesn't believe in Bucha being committed by the Russians, therefore its the same with the holocaust, nanking, etc.

Fuck off with your deceit.

[Fahran]

We have images of the bodies. We have testimony from survivors. Quite a few in fact. So... anyway... We have some footage as well, but sharing it here would violate site rules.

The men in those videos are members of an Azov-offshoot batallion. They did Bucha.

Do you have evidence of these claims?