Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Chan Island]

It's a nationality...? What even is this question.

The Eastern European concept of nationality is different than the Western territorial-political model.

WRA's putting forth a fairly strong argument that Krasnoselsky isn't a Ukrainian, what's your back-up for the claim he is?

https://uawire.org/media-president-of-s ... an-citizen

https://balkaninsight.com/2022/03/11/mo ... n-ukraine/

"Many prominent figures in Transnistria are ethnic Ukrainians. Krasnoselsky identifies as an ethnic Ukrainian. The head coach at Transnistria’s most prominent football club, FC. Sheriff Tiraspol, which recently attained fame by beating Real Madrid in the Champions League, has left the club to participate in the defence of Ukraine."

I don't see what's so unbelievable about it, 20-30% of people in Transnistrian are ethnic Ukrainians and about that many have Ukrainian passports.

Yeah, it checks out. Fair enough!

[Gravlen]

Nice whataboutism, but it still doesn’t change the fact that Russian occupiers don’t belong in legal Moldovan territory.

what about when they did the exact same thing at the exact same time together because ukraine wanted to steal transnistria

The situation in Transnistria is more complex than dumb news narratives. There are less than a hundred actual Russian soldiers there, some are part of a legal peacekeeping mission, the president of Transnistria is Ukrainian himself, there's no evidence that Transnistria (which is politically dominated by the commercial interests of the Sheriff corporation with more economic ties to Ukraine and the EU than Russia) wants to get involved in some dumb war.

I don't believe you, especially about the legality of the so-called "peacekeeping" mission.

Since you refuse to provide any sources, I guess that's all there is to say.

[Gravlen]

Imagine projecting your own political-ideological metabeliefs so hard you think a guy who holds a Ukrainian passport and is sponsored by a mega-corporation the likes of which the Western world hasn't seen since the East India Company, that is staffed by a corporate board with multiple Ukrainian citizens on it, is somehow a Russian agent just because he happens to host an ancient ammo depot that is guarded by a few dozen Russian cops in a UN sanctioned peacekeeping mission, and that's opposed only by a bunch of rust belt Romanians who are mad they lost a civil war.

What "UN sanctioned peacekeeping mission"?

By the terms of the text, the [UN General Assembly] expressed its deep concern about the continued stationing of the Operational Group of Russian Forces on the territory of the Republic of Moldova without the consent of that State or of the United Nations. It also urged the Russian Federation to complete, unconditionally and without further delay, the orderly withdrawal of the Operational Group.

My underlining.

Recognizing that the stationing of foreign military forces on the territory of the
Republic of Moldova, without its consent, violates its sovereignty and territorial
integrity, and that this is a problem that must be resolved in good faith,
unconditionally, without further delay and in a peaceful manner,

Recalling the repeated past calls of the Republic of Moldova, which were
reiterated at the twenty-fourth meeting of the Organization for Security and
Cooperation in Europe Ministerial Council, held in Vienna in December 2017, for the
full withdrawal of Russian military forces and armaments from its territory

Stressing that the Operational Group of Russian Forces is not a part of the
military component of the Joint Control Commission, established under the 1992
ceasefire agreement, which also includes a rotating Russian contingent, and, as such,
has not been entrusted with any peacekeeping or other legal mandate,

1. Expresses deep concern about the continued stationing of the Operational
Group of Russian Forces and its armaments on the territory of the Republic of
Moldova without the consent of that State Member of the United Nations;

2. Urges the Russian Federation to complete, unconditionally and without
further delay, the orderly withdrawal of the Operational Group of Russian Forces and
its armaments from the territory of the Republic of Moldova

Still my underlining

[Washington Resistance Army]

Moldova joins EU sanctions, also will send sappers to help demine towns in Ukraine.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Moldova joins EU sanctions, also will send sappers to help demine towns in Ukraine.

Good.

[Gallia-]

Imagine projecting your own political-ideological metabeliefs so hard you think a guy who holds a Ukrainian passport and is sponsored by a mega-corporation the likes of which the Western world hasn't seen since the East India Company, that is staffed by a corporate board with multiple Ukrainian citizens on it, is somehow a Russian agent just because he happens to host an ancient ammo depot that is guarded by a few dozen Russian cops in a UN sanctioned peacekeeping mission, and that's opposed only by a bunch of rust belt Romanians who are mad they lost a civil war.

What "UN sanctioned peacekeeping mission"?

Yeah the UN isn't great at its job.

It supported the Iraq invasion so it's understandable it wants to reignite the Moldovan Civil War. (:

The best outcome would be simply giving Transnistria to Ukraine but that's probably not going to happen.

[The Archregimancy]

Imagine projecting your own political-ideological metabeliefs so hard you think a guy who holds a Ukrainian passport and is sponsored by a mega-corporation the likes of which the Western world hasn't seen since the East India Company, that is staffed by a corporate board with multiple Ukrainian citizens on it, is somehow a Russian agent just because he happens to host an ancient ammo depot that is guarded by a few dozen Russian cops in a UN sanctioned peacekeeping mission, and that's opposed only by a bunch of rust belt Romanians who are mad they lost a civil war.

What "UN sanctioned peacekeeping mission"?

Quite apart from Gallia- misrepresenting - oh, let's not be mealy-mouthed... Quite apart from Gallia- lying about the Russian presence in Transnistria being a 'UN-sanctioned peacekeeping mission', implicitly characterising the Russian military presence in Transnistria as consisting of 'an ancient ammo depot that is guarded by a few dozen Russian cops' is also intellectually dishonest - assuming we're talking about the ammo depot at Cobasna.

The Operational Group of Russian Forces in Transnistria (OGRF) includes 1,500 Russian troops of the regular Russian army specifically guarding that ammo depot at Cobasna; and that depot consists of 22,000 tons of equipment and ammunition.

As to this being a 'UN-sanctioned peacekeeping mission', here's another link to the UN General Assembly Resolution on the "Complete and unconditional withdrawal of foreign military forces from the territory of the Republic of Moldova", passed in 2018 (and which you've already quoted in detail), with downloadable versions in all official UN languages, including Russian: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1632767?ln=en

Note that I'm explicitly not addressing the personal status of Krasnoselsky, which I have no opinion on either way. But the rest of Gallia-'s post is a demonstrable tissue of outright lies, and can be judged accordingly.

[Gallia-]

Yeah it's not UN sanctioned I was mistaken. It's really not that important, as the point is there is a Russian peacekeeping contribution to the tri-lateral Moldovan/Ukrainian/Russian JCC in the region, with the major participants accepting this and Moldova/Transnistria/Russia all contributing about 300-400 guys at any one time to the peacekeeping force.

Moldova just complains about the OGRF because I guess it thinks it's keeping from conquering Transnistria or something I suppose, but they really just guard an ammo depot to keep people from stealing munitions or scrapping tanks and blowing themselves up by accident because they mishandled an unstable and out of date explosive.

Very nefarious, keeping people from blowing themselves up in an old ammo depot, that.

[Dtn]

Note that I said some of the Russian troops are there legally - the Russian contingent to the Joint Control Commission is currently around a short battalion drawn from the Operational Group.

The issue with the Operational Group isn't that they're in Transnistria but that they're outside the Dniester Valley Security Zone where the JCC is authorized to operate, but this is a tricky political question since nobody wants to leave Cobasna unguarded and there are numerous practical difficulties in getting rid of the munitions.

As to this being a 'UN-sanctioned peacekeeping mission', here's another link to the UN General Assembly Resolution on the "Complete and unconditional withdrawal of foreign military forces from the territory of the Republic of Moldova", passed in 2018 (and which you've already quoted in detail), with downloadable versions in all official UN languages, including Russian: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1632767?ln=en

For an example of the politics involved the Prime Minister of Moldova supported this resolution but the President didn't.

[Gallia-]

It would be cool if the EU had just paid for laying a railroad specifically to transport all the munitions to some Russian demolitions factory where the munitions would be disposed of but I guess that's too commonsensical.

[Picairn]

A helpful map demonstrating the size of the area Russia wants to encircle.

[Ansarullah]

A helpful map demonstrating the size of the area Russia wants to encircle.

Any info on how that's been going for them?
I've heard Russia has adapted more WW1-Germany style tactics of pummeling Ukrainian strongpoints to the ground with artillery but never cared to confirm it.

[Risottia]

It would be cool if the EU had just paid for laying a railroad specifically to transport all the munitions to some Russian demolitions factory where the munitions would be disposed of but I guess that's too commonsensical.

Exactly, why should the EU pay for a railroad to be built between non-EU member countries, in a non-EU gauge, to transport stuff that doesn't belong to any EU member country from a non-EU member country to another non-EU member country, passing through non-EU member countries?

[Gallia-]

It would be cool if the EU had just paid for laying a railroad specifically to transport all the munitions to some Russian demolitions factory where the munitions would be disposed of but I guess that's too commonsensical.

Exactly, why should the EU pay for a railroad to be built between non-EU member countries, in a non-EU gauge, to transport stuff that doesn't belong to any EU member country from a non-EU member country to another non-EU member country, passing through non-EU member countries?

Do you not understand what past tense is lol.

Building a railroad to a munitions destruction plant would hardly be the most awful investment Germany would have made in Russia.

[Utquiagvik]

the battle for Southern Ukraine pretty much determines the fate of two countries, Ukraine and Moldova. If Russia happens to succeed, then one of Ukraine largest cities, Odessa, will become part of Russia, and Moldova will be invaded. Russia wants the west to stop sending weapons to Ukraine, but if anything, we should be sending more, and Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

[Perikuresu]

Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

How to escalate the war and potentially get Ukraine nuked 101

(and also Russia's already accused Ukraine of attacking buildings, how accurate these allegations are idk, probably not true cause it's Russia)

[Continental Free States]

Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

How to escalate the war and potentially get Ukraine nuked 101

I mean if Ukraine was running the risk of "anything we do might piss of the Russians and get us nuked" then they should've just committed mass suicide and made life easier for the Russians. Not only should Ukraine make the continued support of the war have an actual cost for the average Russian, it would be completely well within their right to do so and much more.

[Samudera Darussalam]

Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

How to escalate the war and potentially get Ukraine nuked 101

(and also Russia's already accused Ukraine of attacking buildings, how accurate these allegations are idk, probably not true cause it's Russia)

Pretty much. While it's arguably fair as a form of retaliation since Russia invaded first, I don't think the possibility of Ukraine getting nuked is worth it.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The best outcome would be simply giving Transnistria to Ukraine but that's probably not going to happen.

Internationally, outside of the Kremlin, Transnistria is still considered a part of Moldova.

[Gallia-]

The best outcome would be simply giving Transnistria to Ukraine but that's probably not going to happen.

Internationally, outside of the Kremlin, Transnistria is still considered a part of Moldova.

That's rather incorrect, then, isn't it. Transnistria exists, and Moldova does not own it, ergo it is no more a part of Moldova than the Panama Canal is a part of America. They could try to invade it and take the land, but they did that and lost.

[Picairn]

and Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

This ain't Call of Duty, Ukrainians are not gonna infiltrate the Kremlin.

As for the Russian cities on the border, there are bombings already although the question of who did them is a mystery.

[Ethel mermania]

Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

How to escalate the war and potentially get Ukraine nuked 101

(and also Russia's already accused Ukraine of attacking buildings, how accurate these allegations are idk, probably not true cause it's Russia)

Payback is a bitch. The west should provide missles that could target Moscow. They want to level maruipol, Ukraine should level Moscow.

Unfortunately the lesson every tin pot dictator has learned from this is get nukes as fast as you can and never give them up.

[Ulajhan]

get nukes as fast as you can and never give them up.

This is the most any small nation tinpot dictator or not can probably take away from this entire conflict.

[Majo Bolldass]

get nukes as fast as you can and never give them up.

This is the most any small nation tinpot dictator or not can probably take away from this entire conflict.

I'm sure everyone figured that out from Iraq and N. Korea.

[Fahran]

and Ukraine should begin bombing Russian government buildings.

This ain't Call of Duty, Ukrainians are not gonna infiltrate the Kremlin.

As for the Russian cities on the border, there are bombings already although the question of who did them is a mystery.

Given how many Ukrainians speak Russian fluently and how large the border is, the suggestion isn’t exactly far-fetched or without precedent. The Chechens carried out multiple attacks within Russia itself as an example. It’s likely seen as a waste of resources and a dangerous escalation among Ukrainian leaders though.