American Politics XI: No Moe Roe(Likely, Anyway)

[Tarsonis]

because they're the only ones who are pro life. right.

I feel like a lot of people forget that the US actually has unusually permissive abortion laws. Abortion laws in places like Germany, Belgium, or Norway would be considered radically conservative by pro-choice people in the US.

The debate has been so soured by poisouness rhetoric, I don't think either side actually knows what abortion actually constitutes beyond a buzzword to get them to the polls.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

something without a brain doesn’t have and is incapable of having a consciousness
you can’t murder something that doesn’t have and is incapable of having a consciousness
abortion of a newly-fertilized egg is not murder

There's considerable room for debate on whether or not preventing life and terminating life are symantically different.

also nobody derives fun from abortion, stop making it sound like people are trying to kill babies for fun, they aren’t.

Stop making it sound like people who are against abortion on moral grounds, secretly want create the Handmaids tale universe. Both sides of guilty of bad faith poisoning the well. Imagine how much more productive these debates would be if both sides stopped slandering eachother and actually engaged in good faith debate taking eachother at face value.

preventing a car from being built is different than exploding the car while someone is in it.

I think I just misinterpreted what they were saying

[Heloin]

Notably, fetuses aren't humans, nor is getting an abortion equal to "destroying a human life" or "discarding an innocent human life"

What are they then, a cat? Are they dead?

That they're living things and human isn't debatable.

Well if you want something comparable until a brain develops a fetus is more comparable to an organ or a tumor. It's not even a separate living entity let alone a person.

[Tarsonis]

There's considerable room for debate on whether or not preventing life and terminating life are symantically different.




Stop making it sound like people who are against abortion on moral grounds, secretly want create the Handmaids tale universe. Both sides of guilty of bad faith poisoning the well. Imagine how much more productive these debates would be if both sides stopped slandering eachother and actually engaged in good faith debate taking eachother at face value.

preventing a car from being built is different than exploding the car while someone is in it.

that's not a valid comparison, as the first one has different criteria than the second.

I think I just misinterpreted what they were saying

A bit, he meant more about people using abortion as contraception, i.e never uses birth control and uses abortion as the option. However, the prolife side is guilty of poisoning the debate by making it out like that's all abortion is, just as the pro-choice movement is guilty of poisoning the well by casting all pro-lifers as secretly wanting to chain women to the stove and keep them barefoot and pregnant forever.

There's a reason political campaigns quickly go negative. A lot easier to call your opponent a doodoo head than it is to beat them on the merits of the argument.

[Tarsonis]

What are they then, a cat? Are they dead?

That they're living things and human isn't debatable.

Well if you want something comparable until a brain develops a fetus is more comparable to an organ or a tumor. It's not even a separate living entity let alone a person.

false, tumors and organs are not organisms.

Amoeba, or paramecium would be more accurate.

And yes, even in early stages, offspring are separate entities from the parent, even in mammals.

[Miku0306]

Kansas better get its act together and uphold the 2019 decision.

[Moscareinas]

What does criminalizing abortion look like in terms of enforcing it? Is it a search warrant of her phone and computer to see what doctors and healthcare providers were sought out? Is it anyone she knows being interrogated about her menstrual cycle? Is it subpoena of insurance, travel, and bank records?

i take it you already have a list of women you'd like to snitch on?

I'm looking into whether I should support or oppose the recent direction on abortion in the US. I had assumed that it'd keep being legal by default and this SCOTUS action blindsided me and I do see a lot of downsides. But it could also be very good. I might be able to get rich and more because of this brave new world we're entering. I'm a male though, so my stakes in this is less personal or significantly less.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha OF COURSE YOU DO!

There is a consequence; destroying a human life that they conceived just for fun. That's the point. Discarding an innocent human life just to enable hedonism is dystopian, and the fact you don't get that is even more dystopian.

There's nothing worth preserving in hookup culture.

and the way to destroying hookup culture, which you think is dystopian, is through getting behind the authoritarian shit the gop is trying to cook up? with the aim of forcing any female of childbearing age to shoot forth babies or else? just to punish them for even thinking about having sex?

is this the state of one half of humanity you desire -- old crone or barefoot and pregnant? i bet it doesn't, i know it doesn't, but the effect of such policies being rammed by the gop on unsuspecting and suspicious wombs alike... it do be like that

[New haven america]

I feel like a lot of people forget that the US actually has unusually permissive abortion laws. Abortion laws in places like Germany, Belgium, or Norway would be considered radically conservative by pro-choice people in the US.

Yeah and you guys are crashing towards becoming more authoritarian than some South American countries on this matter, with nary a thought towards maybe stopping.

Most don't to be like South America.

They want the US to be a more conservative version of Modern Russia.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Keep your fantasies about women being abused in your head, we don't want to be a part of it.

I'm looking into whether I should support or oppose the recent direction on abortion in the US. I had assumed that it'd keep being legal by default and this SCOTUS action blindsided me and I do see a lot of downsides. But it could also be very good. I might be able to get rich and more because of this brave new world we're entering. I'm a male though, so my stakes in this is less personal or significantly less.

imagine supporting getting rid of rights for profit. this is what the free market gets you, apparently. like, at least anti-abortionists try to justify their ideas with some modicum of logic.

[Salus Maior]

preventing a car from being built is different than exploding the car while someone is in it.

that's not a valid comparison, as the first one has different criteria than the second.

I think I just misinterpreted what they were saying

A bit, he meant more about people using abortion as contraception, i.e never uses birth control and uses abortion as the option. However, the prolife side is guilty of poisoning the debate by making it out like that's all abortion is, just as the pro-choice movement is guilty of poisoning the well by casting all pro-lifers as secretly wanting to chain women to the stove and keep them barefoot and pregnant forever.

There's a reason political campaigns quickly go negative. A lot easier to call your opponent a doodoo head than it is to beat them on the merits of the argument.

I hope you are aware that I'm aware that's not all abortion is.

[Salus Maior]

Yeah and you guys are crashing towards becoming more authoritarian than some South American countries on this matter, with nary a thought towards maybe stopping.

Most don't to be like South America.

They want the US to be a more conservative version of Modern Russia.

I'm pretty sure Russia is fine with abortion. As far as I know, anyway.

[Corrian]

Dude the fuck is even happening in America at this point?

[New haven america]

Dude the fuck is even happening in America at this point?

The GOP's being more brazen with its fascism and most of those that oppose them are accepting defeatism.

[Corrian]

Like I didn't expect a fucking Senate candidate to propose banning condoms in every state, multiple states already making Plan B and IUD's fucking illegal, ONE of them apparently basically saying they'll impeach any judge that opposes them and federal law is null and void, and whatever the fuck else is going on. Like they're even going out on far fetched insanity for even their own side.

[New haven america]

Like I didn't expect a fucking Senate candidate to propose banning condoms in every state, multiple states already making Plan B and IUD's fucking illegal, ONE of them apparently basically saying they'll impeach any judge that opposes them and federal law is null and void, and whatever the fuck else is going on. Like they're even going out on far fetched insanity for even their own side.

I did.

Alito had plans to ban birth control and gay marriage in the leaked draft.

And people are just sitting down and taking it, acting like there's no other options than to just go along with it. Seriously, they can't come up with 1 single possibility to fight back against them.

Again, Mexico legalized abortion 1 day after the government said it wouldn't due to the riots that decision caused, but most Americans are evidently just ok with losing basic bodily autonomy.

[Corrian]

Like I didn't expect a fucking Senate candidate to propose banning condoms in every state, multiple states already making Plan B and IUD's fucking illegal, ONE of them apparently basically saying they'll impeach any judge that opposes them and federal law is null and void, and whatever the fuck else is going on. Like they're even going out on far fetched insanity for even their own side.

I did.

Alito had plans to ban birth control and gay marriage in the leaked draft.

And people are just sitting down and taking it, acting like there's no other options than to just go along with it. Seriously, they can't come up with 1 single possibility to fight back against them.

Again, Mexico legalized abortion 1 day after the government said it wouldn't due to the riots that decision caused, but most Americans are evidently just ok with losing basic bodily autonomy.

People have been protesting. And there's been protests outside Kavanaugh's house. I'm pretty sure this will be upped before the decision goes to be honest. And an anti-abortion office got molotoved too.

[New haven america]

I did.

Alito had plans to ban birth control and gay marriage in the leaked draft.

And people are just sitting down and taking it, acting like there's no other options than to just go along with it. Seriously, they can't come up with 1 single possibility to fight back against them.

Again, Mexico legalized abortion 1 day after the government said it wouldn't due to the riots that decision caused, but most Americans are evidently just ok with losing basic bodily autonomy.

People have been protesting. And there's been protests outside Kavanaugh's house. I'm pretty sure this will be upped before the decision goes to be honest. And an anti-abortion office got molotoved too.

Not enough.

Nowhere near enough.

[Czardas]

Again, Mexico legalized abortion 1 day after the government said it wouldn't due to the riots that decision caused, but most Americans are evidently just ok with losing basic bodily autonomy.

In America, people still (at the moment) have the illusion that if they are white and vote for conservative political candidates and stay at home and keep their mouth shut and don't protest anything, they can avoid being hurt or killed by the police state and its various auxiliary citizens' militias. In most other countries, people seem to have either given up on that illusion or never had it in the first place.

The persistence of this illusion seems to be due to the omnipresent propaganda constantly forced into American citizens' brains; I've never encountered another country where the media apparatus (especially social media these days) is so single-mindedly devoted to brainwashing the population. There are a number of other factors that go into it as well—life in the USA isn't quite as bad yet as it could be, since there's still food on the shelves and petrol in the fuel pumps; people here have more material wealth and therefore more that they fear losing by disturbing the peace in any way; where people in other countries might come to have hope for their personal future because they can "move to America", in which they are convinced that conditions will be better, in the USA we have no "America" to look forward to moving to; etc. But I personally think the media landscape in general, and its development via the free market in particular, is what bears most of the blame in this case.

[Vassenor]

I did.

Alito had plans to ban birth control and gay marriage in the leaked draft.

And people are just sitting down and taking it, acting like there's no other options than to just go along with it. Seriously, they can't come up with 1 single possibility to fight back against them.

Again, Mexico legalized abortion 1 day after the government said it wouldn't due to the riots that decision caused, but most Americans are evidently just ok with losing basic bodily autonomy.

People have been protesting. And there's been protests outside Kavanaugh's house. I'm pretty sure this will be upped before the decision goes to be honest. And an anti-abortion office got molotoved too.

We already discussed that at length and it looks a whole lot like that one was staged by the alleged victims.

People have been protesting. And there's been protests outside Kavanaugh's house. I'm pretty sure this will be upped before the decision goes to be honest. And an anti-abortion office got molotoved too.

Not enough.

Nowhere near enough.

Certain people are a bit too hopped up on the idea of enforcing Respectability Politics to keep this down.

[Shofercia]

I'm going to need to see more proof than just "unelectable senatorial candidate said something" in order to take that at face value.

You got it, chief. Current Missouri law could ban not only abortion, but also the morning-after pill and IUDs.

Regarding Roe, Mississippi passed a law specifically to challenge Roe, and there was numerous litigation from other states around the issue. It wasn't just "some unelectable dude said so!"

Okay?

My point was about condoms, not about the morning after pill or IUDs. Still waiting for that proof.

I never cease to be amazed by Vass' ability to make the other side look reasonable. Let's talk about this GOP senate candidate, Blake Masters. He's a venture capitalist from Tuscon, whose policies are too radical for the GOP. Yep, you read that right, even the Republicans think that's a step to extreme.

But let's pretend that he somehow wins; he'd then have to convince 59 other senators to pass his bill. The Ottawa Senators are more likely to win the Stanley Cup. But let's say he does that, now the bill still has to pass through Congress, and signed by the president. Ok, so now that happened, we're now at 0.000002% odds, now it goes up against the Right to Privacy. It gets slaughtered. The odds of the scenario where condoms being banned takes place are insanely low. "A king's home is a king's castle" is the Republican tagline, and if someone comes a looking for condoms in that castle... although it would make a great, erm, creative movie, I'm just not seeing it.

So don't worry gang, you can use your condoms, they're perfectly safe. Actually they're not. This is America, the land that ran out of toilet paper, so you might want to stock up on condoms, in case there's a run on for condoms in stores. Ah, the Great American Condom Panic, started by NSG, we live in interesting times.

And if Blake Masters runs for president, here's his running mate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

see, it's not just blake masters who wants to junk griswold because evil

She's saying that the Court shouldn't have taken the Griswold case. I disagree. But she's not saying "let's pass trigger laws to ban all condoms" which is what's happening with abortion, i.e. the Missouri laws. Isn't in funny how quickly I can find actual laws to prove my point, rather than utilizing vague obscurities? Senator Blackburn also took aim at eminent domain, and quite a few other cases. She's using Griswold to reinvigorate the debate on Judicial Philosophy, akin to someone using Super Bowl to take a knee.

[Sordhau]

Dude the fuck is even happening in America at this point?

The vultures of late-stage capitalism are picking apart the USA's diseased carcass with jubilant glee.

This is understandably very bad for those of us living here and could very well signal the final nail in the coffin for the post-9/11 America Era and the beginning of a much darker period in our nation's history.

[Duvniask]

Notably, fetuses aren't humans, nor is getting an abortion equal to "destroying a human life" or "discarding an innocent human life"

What are they then, a cat? Are they dead?

That they're living things and human isn't debatable.

It does not matter that the fetus is biologically (genetically) of the species homo sapiens. Prior to its viability it is not conscious, sapient, or sentient, nor is it capable of surviving outside its mother's body. The case for being against abortion is no stronger than you going full vegan and arguing any organism has a right to life, even if parasitic, whereas I eat my pork slices for breakfast without concern for that. Personhood aside, this also opens up for the case of bodily rights, namely whether it is okay to attach someone to you, living off of your body, without your consent.

[Duvniask]

Dude the fuck is even happening in America at this point?

Breakdown of institutional order and legitimacy, as the political system has proved impotent and incapable of solving the issues.

It is the Late Roman Republic, and America awaits its Caesar.

[Mettaton-EX]

also nobody derives fun from abortion, stop making it sound like people are trying to kill babies for fun, they aren’t.

Stop making it sound like people who are against abortion on moral grounds, secretly want create the Handmaids tale universe.

you're right, many of them openly want to create a handmaid's-tale-like dystopia

[Ifreann]

Apparently the talk in DC is that Ginni Thomas leaked the draft decision to stop the conservative justices from backing off Alito's extreme language.

---

You got it, chief. Current Missouri law could ban not only abortion, but also the morning-after pill and IUDs.

Okay?

My point was about condoms, not about the morning after pill or IUDs. Still waiting for that proof.

I don't understand why you're so insistent on ignoring the things that are happening in favour of focussing on something that isn't.