Ukrainian Invasion Thread II: Sunrise on the Dnieper

[Giovenith]

I condemn the Turkish political Islam, the puppet of the United States, which endanger the Turkish nation. I will hold America and Russia responsible for every mine that will kill the Turkish people in the Bosphorus. Political Islamists will go and Kemalist social democrats will come ! The Bosphorus was closed to all ships with a decision that was too late.
mine alert in bosphorus

Hakinda has always makes it about the Turkic people, Political Islam, and the Kemalists, then masks it behind Pan-Europeanism or "Pan-Worldism" (if that even is a thing?), they've derailed this thread 2 times because of Northern Cyprus iirc

All of them are interconnected, but what I am trying to say is that the world union state can be the solution to everything. Of course, I will defend the world unity against fascist putins. If you are aware, Putin's fascist situations are affecting Turkey. you tell me not to talk about this incident. No matter how you look at it, I think that you are trying to prevent the freedom of the press with racist feeling (Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

A Serbian perspective on the war.

It is the product of the same mentality that smashed Yugoslavia, so putin supporters are no different from American imperialism. the serbs killed their Bosnian brothers yesterday, today putin is killing his ukrainian brothers salvs should not be divided, they should unite!

What does that have to do with Ukraine?

I shared the news that the mines laid due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine passed into Turkish waters. Is my writing in English not understandable ?

Turkey and Islam are not the topic of this thread. Yes, all international conflicts are related to some extent, but that does not mean that it's fair game to bring up any other random nation's conflict in a thread about a specific conflict in a specific country. Please keep the discussion focused on the war in Ukraine, not on events anywhere else.

[The Alma Mater]

Speaking of paradox games - Europa Universalis IV with almost all DLCs is currently available for 20 bucks from humblebundle. Which is a decent deal if you like the genre.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Paradox games are useless for understanding warfare.

In Russian conventional war doctrine the VDV is a diversionary force ideally dropped 80 kilometers behind front lines to disrupt defenses. The crucial river crossing near Chernobyl is 75 km north of Hostomel. The Pripyat marshes are an enormous obstacle to armored forces and easily defended in depth - this didn't happen.

Mass paradrops into Kyiv are just a meme. It was a fairly well-executed helicopter assault that took some casualties and dispersed into nearby forests and villages before linking up with ground forces the next day.

However, it was still a partial failure as the main goal was most likely to facilitate fully encircling Kyiv.

We know that, we're just taking the piss at Russia's expense.

Honestly the VDV operation itself was actually about as good as it could have been despite the memes, the failure came from the complete lack of support they received. If they'd actually got serious air power over Kyiv or if a thunder run to support them with armor had actually broken through things could have gone very differently.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Honestly the VDV operation itself was actually about as good as it could have been despite the memes, the failure came from the complete lack of support they received. If they'd actually got serious air power over Kyiv or if a thunder run to support them with armor had actually broken through things could have gone very differently.

I mean, the inability of the Russians to get the different parts of their military to work together in proper combined armed formations has been one of the persistent features of this war.

...honestly, if you think about it, the Russians set forth to claim unachievable objectives based on a misunderstanding of the Ukrainian political situation, failed to properly allocate the necessary supplies to keep their invasion running or to move those supplies to the units demanding them, and has been generally unsuccessful at defending their expensive military hardware like tanks with things like air cover or infantry screens.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been a strategic, operational, and tactical failure.

[Archinstinct]

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been a strategic, operational, and tactical failure.

And an international, political, and virtual failure too. They can't even meme right anymore. Where the russian troll factories from 2016?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Honestly the VDV operation itself was actually about as good as it could have been despite the memes, the failure came from the complete lack of support they received. If they'd actually got serious air power over Kyiv or if a thunder run to support them with armor had actually broken through things could have gone very differently.

I mean, the inability of the Russians to get the different parts of their military to work together in proper combined armed formations has been one of the persistent features of this war.

...honestly, if you think about it, the Russians set forth to claim unachievable objectives based on a misunderstanding of the Ukrainian political situation, failed to properly allocate the necessary supplies to keep their invasion running or to move those supplies to the units demanding them, and has been generally unsuccessful at defending their expensive military hardware like tanks with things like air cover or infantry screens.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been a strategic, operational, and tactical failure.

The complete lack of interoperability from the Russians has simply been astounding. It's not even like it's a new concept, pretty much everyone has understood how important it is for several decades now (if not since WW2), and they're still failing it on pretty much all levels. Even now over a month into the war you can still find recent videos of armor driving around with no supporting infantry and the Russians still don't have air superiority. It's an embarrassment.

[Rusozak]

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been a strategic, operational, and tactical failure.

And an international, political, and virtual failure too. They can't even meme right anymore. Where the russian troll factories from 2016?

Marching to the meat grinder in real life because Russia is still using decades old "human life is cheap" tactics and are desperate for lives to throw away, it seems.

[Luziyca]

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been a strategic, operational, and tactical failure.

Absolutely. I can do a better job at invading the Ukraine than Russia, and I have absolutely zero experience in invading other countries in real life.

[The Federal State of Novorossiya]

And an international, political, and virtual failure too. They can't even meme right anymore. Where the russian troll factories from 2016?

Marching to the meat grinder in real life because Russia is still using decades old "human life is cheap" tactics and are desperate for lives to throw away, it seems.

They’re following orders from the muckity-mucks back in the Kremlin to make all of those disseminating videos of ‘Ukrainian’ soldiers committing war crimes on Russian POWs.

[Dtn]

Marching to the meat grinder in real life because Russia is still using decades old "human life is cheap" tactics and are desperate for lives to throw away, it seems.

They’re following orders from the muckity-mucks back in the Kremlin to make all of those disseminating videos of ‘Ukrainian’ soldiers committing war crimes on Russian POWs.

The most famous one appears to be real, the location isn't under Russian control (according to NYT) and it was posted by Konstantin Nemichev.

The document ordering fake torture videos has been verified as fake itself by Western sources, of course this isn't conclusive proof it isn't happening.

[Adamede]

Paradox games are useless for understanding warfare.

In Russian conventional war doctrine the VDV is a diversionary force ideally dropped 80 kilometers behind front lines to disrupt defenses. The crucial river crossing near Chernobyl is 75 km north of Hostomel. The Pripyat marshes are an enormous obstacle to armored forces and easily defended in depth - this didn't happen.

Mass paradrops into Kyiv are just a meme. It was a fairly well-executed helicopter assault that took some casualties and dispersed into nearby forests and villages before linking up with ground forces the next day.

However, it was still a partial failure as the main goal was most likely to facilitate fully encircling Kyiv.

We know that, we're just taking the piss at Russia's expense.

Honestly the VDV operation itself was actually about as good as it could have been despite the memes, the failure came from the complete lack of support they received. If they'd actually got serious air power over Kyiv or if a thunder run to support them with armor had actually broken through things could have gone very differently.

Can have the best soldiers in the world, doesn't matter if you don't use them right.

[Adamede]

They’re following orders from the muckity-mucks back in the Kremlin to make all of those disseminating videos of ‘Ukrainian’ soldiers committing war crimes on Russian POWs.

The most famous one appears to be real, the location isn't under Russian control (according to NYT) and it was posted by Konstantin Nemichev.

The document ordering fake torture videos has been verified as fake itself by Western sources, of course this isn't conclusive proof it isn't happening.

Honestly with how brutal this war is I'd be more surprised if it turned out there weren't executions of PoWs from either side.

[Luziyca]

Marching to the meat grinder in real life because Russia is still using decades old "human life is cheap" tactics and are desperate for lives to throw away, it seems.

They’re following orders from the muckity-mucks back in the Kremlin to make all of those disseminating videos of ‘Ukrainian’ soldiers committing war crimes on Russian POWs.

Even if those videos are real, what sympathy can they hope to gain? If anything, Russia producing fake videos is not really likely to convince many people outside of Russia that "the Ukrainians are the baddies here" because Russia has done far worse than whatever the Ukrainians have done to Russian forces.

For better or worse, most people have lost sympathy that they may have had for Russian soldiers, and so as far as they're concerned, the Russian soldiers had it coming. If they didn't want to be treated like that, maybe they should not have committed war crimes in the first place.

[Dtn]

The most famous one appears to be real, the location isn't under Russian control (according to NYT) and it was posted by Konstantin Nemichev.

The document ordering fake torture videos has been verified as fake itself by Western sources, of course this isn't conclusive proof it isn't happening.

Honestly with how brutal this war is I'd be more surprised if it turned out there weren't executions of PoWs from either side.

Since both sides have committed atrocities in every war in history this is a good guess.

[Hamidiye]

Honestly with how brutal this war is I'd be more surprised if it turned out there weren't executions of PoWs from either side.

Since both sides have committed atrocities in every war in history this is a good guess.

Reminds me of that Sherman-quote, yes.

[Novus America]

I am sure individual Ukrainian troops, especially given the emergency mass mobilization, have done some horrible things to Russian troops. It should be noted the Ukrainian government has said such behavior is not allowed.

Hopefully it can be prosecuted by Ukrainian authorities when the war ends and Putin’s war criminals leave or are driven out, or shipped out in boxes.

But who could be surprised? Putin with his constant rants about how Ukraine is fake, his wars and war crimes against Ukraine has turned most Ukrainians extremely against Russia, for good reason.

Russia under Putin is indisputably an existential threat to Ukraine as an independent state, per Putin’s own words.

Putin has turned most Ukrainians against Russia, made Russia hated in Ukraine.

This is why the whole “NATO expansion” meme is crap. Eastern Europe turned to NATO for protection against Russia, which Russia has proven to be a valid concern. Having a border with Russia is curse, that puts one at risk.
Russia is extremely hostile towards many of its neighbors and harbors a deep seated irredentist and revanchist viewpoint.
That really cannot be denied.

Quite frankly I would think a huge number of people in Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine would rather Russia disappear completely off the face of the earth, as it is the only way they can be safe from it.

[Picairn]

Mariupol, before and after the Russian assault

[The North Polish Union]

Mariupol, before and after the Russian assault

What has been reported here is that 80-90% of Mariupol is destroyed

[The North Polish Union]

Anatolij Bibyłty, president of South Osetia (national motto: "We somehow managed to have less ethnic cleansing than Abchazia, despite our best efforts") has announced the intention of his 'country' to join the Russian Federation.

[New Baltenstein]

Mariupol, before and after the Russian assault

Putin used to talk about how much his mother's experiences with surviving the Siege of Leningrad left an impact on him.

Little did we know that what he actually meant was that he wanted to recreate the thing with himself in the role of German High Command.

[Vistulange]

I mean, the inability of the Russians to get the different parts of their military to work together in proper combined armed formations has been one of the persistent features of this war.

...honestly, if you think about it, the Russians set forth to claim unachievable objectives based on a misunderstanding of the Ukrainian political situation, failed to properly allocate the necessary supplies to keep their invasion running or to move those supplies to the units demanding them, and has been generally unsuccessful at defending their expensive military hardware like tanks with things like air cover or infantry screens.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been a strategic, operational, and tactical failure.

The complete lack of interoperability from the Russians has simply been astounding. It's not even like it's a new concept, pretty much everyone has understood how important it is for several decades now (if not since WW2), and they're still failing it on pretty much all levels. Even now over a month into the war you can still find recent videos of armor driving around with no supporting infantry and the Russians still don't have air superiority. It's an embarrassment.

Corruption. It's not the only factor of course, but the majority of us who live in Western countries take for granted just how transparent—relatively speaking—our countries operate.

Well, you folks can. I'm Turkish, and we've got plenty of corruption compared to Europe, particularly in the last decade. And we can see the adverse effects of corruption directly, albeit in fields other than armed conflict, but that's beyond the scope. Point is, people like to say "well the West is corrupt too!" which, while technically true, has the side effect of making the corruption seem homogeneous and the same across the board. Corruption itself is a varied thing, i.e., not all corruption is the same.

Russia seems to have been affected by all the worst kinds of it, though, which isn't exactly something you can decouple from a centralised (in practice), authoritarian government. Hence the results we're seeing on the battlefield. Not that I'm complaining.

[Ostroeuropa]

I am sure individual Ukrainian troops, especially given the emergency mass mobilization, have done some horrible things to Russian troops. It should be noted the Ukrainian government has said such behavior is not allowed.

Hopefully it can be persecuted when the war ends.

But who could be surprised? Putin with his constant rants about his Ukraine is fake, his wars and war crimes against Ukraine has turned most Ukrainians extremely against Russia, for good reason.

Russia under Putin is indisputably and existential threat to Ukraine as an independent state, per Putin’s own words.

Putin has turned most Ukrainians against Russia, made Russia hated in Ukraine.

This is why the whole “NATO expansion” meme is crap. Eastern Europe turned to NATO for protection against Russia, which Russia has proven to be a valid concern. Having a border with Russia is curse, that puts one at risk.
Russia is extremely hostile towards many of its neighbors and harbors a deep seated irredentist and revanchist viewpoint.
That really cannot be denied.

Quite frankly I would think a huge number of people in Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine would rather Russia disappear completely off the face of the earth, as it is the only way they can be safe from it.

I want to add that the expectations for Ukraine to have effective control over its army and a system for enforcing observation of human rights have to be within the context of an unexpected invasion and them needing to rapidly expand their army without major vetting and with a confusing situation on the ground, alongside the need to basically triple the number of officers they have.

It's entirely possible that the scale of incidents being committed by Ukrainian soldiers, if committed by a western army, would be entirely unacceptable and an indictment of that government because they would be expected to have constructed their army in such a way as to prevent incidents occuring at such a rate. This expectation cannot reasonably be placed on the Ukrainians given the self-defensive nature of the campaign and the need for rapid military expansion.

Thus while the individual soldiers remain culpable, the Ukrainian government has a lesser culpability in my opinion than they would if this were their "Regular" army rather than one rapidly conscripted and cobbled together in a rapid and chaotic fashion. The charge that "Ukraine is doing war crimes" is dubious at best as a result of that. I simply do not see how their government can be held responsible. "This Ukrainian soldier did a war crime" is entirely valid still.

And again, I think that carefully distinguishing between when a government can be reasonably expected to have a firm hold on its soldiers and a system for preventing and punishing in a rapid fashion where these excesses occur, and when that is an unreasonable expectation, can prevent us from lessening the burden of governments by being like "well this is just what Ukraine did and you didn't hold them responsible". For instance if we saw 1/1000 Ukrainian soldiers do a war crime, that is a markedly different matter to 1/1000 British or American troops doing so. I would view the latter as considerably more culpable for the behavior of their soldiers.

This is why Russia tit-for-tat'ing on this issue wouldn't hold water with me. "Well we both did war crimes so why are you picking on us?".

Because your army is decades old and the institutions should have prevented that and if they didn't it suggests the government has put zero effort into rooting that behavior out. Your officers are supposedly professional military men. I would be more willing to view Ukraine negatively over this if war crimes were being done by their pre-invasion officer corps and units as opposed to the "Well you've got a degree so you're an officer now" conscripts.

[Novus America]

I am sure individual Ukrainian troops, especially given the emergency mass mobilization, have done some horrible things to Russian troops. It should be noted the Ukrainian government has said such behavior is not allowed.

Hopefully it can be persecuted when the war ends.

But who could be surprised? Putin with his constant rants about his Ukraine is fake, his wars and war crimes against Ukraine has turned most Ukrainians extremely against Russia, for good reason.

Russia under Putin is indisputably and existential threat to Ukraine as an independent state, per Putin’s own words.

Putin has turned most Ukrainians against Russia, made Russia hated in Ukraine.

This is why the whole “NATO expansion” meme is crap. Eastern Europe turned to NATO for protection against Russia, which Russia has proven to be a valid concern. Having a border with Russia is curse, that puts one at risk.
Russia is extremely hostile towards many of its neighbors and harbors a deep seated irredentist and revanchist viewpoint.
That really cannot be denied.

Quite frankly I would think a huge number of people in Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine would rather Russia disappear completely off the face of the earth, as it is the only way they can be safe from it.

I want to add that the expectations for Ukraine to have effective control over its army and a system for enforcing observation of human rights have to be within the context of an unexpected invasion and them needing to rapidly expand their army without major vetting and with a confusing situation on the ground, alongside the need to basically triple the number of officers they have.

It's entirely possible that the scale of incidents being committed by Ukrainian soldiers, if committed by a western army, would be entirely unacceptable and an indictment of that government because they would be expected to have constructed their army in such a way as to prevent incidents occuring at such a rate. This expectation cannot reasonably be placed on the Ukrainians given the self-defensive nature of the campaign and the need for rapid military expansion.

Thus while the individual soldiers remain culpable, the Ukrainian government has a lesser culpability in my opinion than they would if this were their "Regular" army rather than one rapidly conscripted and cobbled together in a rapid and chaotic fashion. The charge that "Ukraine is doing war crimes" is dubious at best as a result of that. I simply do not see how their government can be held responsible. "This Ukrainian soldier did a war crime" is entirely valid still.

And again, I think that carefully distinguishing between when a government can be reasonably expected to have a firm hold on its soldiers and a system for preventing and punishing in a rapid fashion where these excesses occur, and when that is an unreasonable expectation, can prevent us from lessening the burden of governments by being like "well this is just what Ukraine did and you didn't hold them responsible". For instance if we saw 1/1000 Ukrainian soldiers do a war crime, that is a markedly different matter to 1/1000 British or American troops doing so. I would view the latter as considerably more culpable for the behavior of their soldiers.

This is why Russia tit-for-tat'ing on this issue wouldn't hold water with me. "Well we both did war crimes so why are you picking on us?".

Because your army is decades old and the institutions should have prevented that and if they didn't it suggests the government has put zero effort into rooting that behavior out. Your officers are supposedly professional military men. I would be more willing to view Ukraine negatively over this if war crimes were being done by their pre-invasion officer corps and units as opposed to the "Well you've got a degree so you're an officer now" conscripts.

I agree. Ukraine was forced by Russia into a position that makes military justice more difficult to administer so these cannot be attributed to the Ukrainian state. The Russian state on the other hand does not have this excuse.

Also Russia’s attempts at false equivalency/whataboutism fall apart too when Russia has committed war crimes directly attributable to the state. Deliberately bombing civilians and hospitals at the direction of Russia’s high command is quite different in terms of state attribution than some hastily mobilized militia going rogue.

When entire artillery batteries are blasting a city indiscriminately, that is not some militia going rogue. That is the state ordering, even forcing the soldiers to commit the war crime.

So while there are individual war criminals no doubt on both sides, the difference is Putin and essentially all his generals are war criminals when the same cannot be said of Ukraine.

Besides Russia can end any risk of its soldiers being killed by GTFO of Ukraine.
Ukraine is not forcing war on Russia, Russia is forcing the war on Ukraine despite being able to end it at any time, without losing any territory or having to make any concessions.
So all war crimes committed, even by Ukrainians are in fact partially attributable to the Russian state, because Russia’s criminal actions are the but for cause.

But for Russia’s illegal invasion, no Russian soldiers would be subject to Ukrainian soldiers committing illegal actions.

Also Russia is as brutal to its own soldiers as even the worst and least disciplined angry Ukrainians militiaman is likely to be. Kind of hard to feel sympathy for Russia when Russian soldiers rape and murder not only Ukrainians, but other Russian soldiers. That does not justify it of course. We should try to treat Russians MUCH better than the treat their own. But when we are talking sympathy it does make a difference.

If A accuses B of murder one person when A has murdered 10 by rape and torture, A’s accusation might be valid, B still did something wrong if it is true, but I am still not sympathizing with A.

[Antipatros]

Russia focusing on these war crimes reminds me of Nazi sympathizers who dwell heavily on Allied war crimes against German troops or civilians.

War crimes are never okay, and all war criminals should see justice (even though most of them don't). That said, let's not forget who started this unjust and unnecessary war.

[Chan Island]

I am sure individual Ukrainian troops, especially given the emergency mass mobilization, have done some horrible things to Russian troops. It should be noted the Ukrainian government has said such behavior is not allowed.

Hopefully it can be persecuted when the war ends.

But who could be surprised? Putin with his constant rants about his Ukraine is fake, his wars and war crimes against Ukraine has turned most Ukrainians extremely against Russia, for good reason.

Russia under Putin is indisputably and existential threat to Ukraine as an independent state, per Putin’s own words.

Putin has turned most Ukrainians against Russia, made Russia hated in Ukraine.

This is why the whole “NATO expansion” meme is crap. Eastern Europe turned to NATO for protection against Russia, which Russia has proven to be a valid concern. Having a border with Russia is curse, that puts one at risk.
Russia is extremely hostile towards many of its neighbors and harbors a deep seated irredentist and revanchist viewpoint.
That really cannot be denied.

Quite frankly I would think a huge number of people in Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine would rather Russia disappear completely off the face of the earth, as it is the only way they can be safe from it.

I want to add that the expectations for Ukraine to have effective control over its army and a system for enforcing observation of human rights have to be within the context of an unexpected invasion and them needing to rapidly expand their army without major vetting and with a confusing situation on the ground, alongside the need to basically triple the number of officers they have.

It's entirely possible that the scale of incidents being committed by Ukrainian soldiers, if committed by a western army, would be entirely unacceptable and an indictment of that government because they would be expected to have constructed their army in such a way as to prevent incidents occuring at such a rate. This expectation cannot reasonably be placed on the Ukrainians given the self-defensive nature of the campaign and the need for rapid military expansion.

Thus while the individual soldiers remain culpable, the Ukrainian government has a lesser culpability in my opinion than they would if this were their "Regular" army rather than one rapidly conscripted and cobbled together in a rapid and chaotic fashion. The charge that "Ukraine is doing war crimes" is dubious at best as a result of that. I simply do not see how their government can be held responsible. "This Ukrainian soldier did a war crime" is entirely valid still.

And again, I think that carefully distinguishing between when a government can be reasonably expected to have a firm hold on its soldiers and a system for preventing and punishing in a rapid fashion where these excesses occur, and when that is an unreasonable expectation, can prevent us from lessening the burden of governments by being like "well this is just what Ukraine did and you didn't hold them responsible". For instance if we saw 1/1000 Ukrainian soldiers do a war crime, that is a markedly different matter to 1/1000 British or American troops doing so. I would view the latter as considerably more culpable for the behavior of their soldiers.

This is why Russia tit-for-tat'ing on this issue wouldn't hold water with me. "Well we both did war crimes so why are you picking on us?".

Because your army is decades old and the institutions should have prevented that and if they didn't it suggests the government has put zero effort into rooting that behavior out. Your officers are supposedly professional military men. I would be more willing to view Ukraine negatively over this if war crimes were being done by their pre-invasion officer corps and units as opposed to the "Well you've got a degree so you're an officer now" conscripts.

Tit for tat also won’t work for Russia because 100% of Ukrainian war crimes are directly caused by the Russian invasion. If Russia was really so upset at these war crimes, then they could leave at any time and end the war in an instant.

But they don’t. Instead they bombard Mariupol and every kindergarten they can find.