Ukrainian Invasion Thread II: Sunrise on the Dnieper

[Picairn]

How "Eastern Ukraine" was lost

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

This is how I would have done it

1. Secure all land around the black sea
2. Take the sepretist areas and parts near northern Belarus
3. Devistate Ukrainian Infustructure
4. Seize ukrainian air-feilds and air ports
5. Burn there farms to the ground starving them
6. Crush resistance and take the capital while your at it
7. Take over ukraine
8. kill zelenski in a dramatic way invocing russian nationalism

how would anyone else have done it?

This is significantly dumber than the Russian plan, at least theirs made sense under the pretense that it would be extremely easy and nobody would want to resist. Their mistake was being lazy, arrogant, and reckless in their planning, not that they lacked the strategic genius of a basement groyper.

Btw people from Alexander the Great’s time believed he was attracted to boys, and he may have had sexual relations with men. While it is unclear whether he was actually gay, something tells me knowing there’s a chance would have discouraged you from naming yourself after him.

Agreed about your assessment and about Alexander the Great.

Allow me to systematically address his 8 points. Note, real life is not Hearts of Iron IV.

1: Russia tried and failed. They are struggling with Mariupol and are falling back to Kherson, which has a population that is loyal to Ukraine and wants to expel Russian invaders. Not feasible to take Odessa given severe Russian losses.
2: Half-feasible. Separatist zones are already held (but not back to 2014 levels). Russia is losing in the North and Kyiv is no longer besieged.
3: Russia tried and failed again. Ukraine is a massive country as big as Texas. Russia cannot feasibly hit areas like Lviv or Zakarpatia with enough frequency to obliterate them. Their missiles are being shot down or are inaccurate. Also, Ukraine is receiving large amounts of aid from the West, Japan, South Korea, and Turkey. Ukraine will rebuild.
4: "VDV, they shot down our jet! Looked around, most of my squad is dead!" You may want to look up how the VDV got utterly annihilated trying to take Hostomel or how they lost 300 paratroopers and 2 IL-76s (planes that can carry paratroopers). The Russians can't use airborne assaults anymore. They also can't go by ground without Ukraine attacking them.
5: WORST. IDEA. EVER. Ukraine is one of the largest grain exporters to the Middle East. Burning their wheat fields will set of a global famine that will make the Great Leap Forward look small by comparison.
6: Russia tried and failed again. Ukraine is united in resisting Russian imperialism.
7: Definitely not feasible. A Ukrainian insurgency would make occupation impossible without catastrophic Russian losses. Russia oppressed Ukraine for hundreds of years. The people will not welcome Russian occupation.
8: 4th time, Russia tried and failed. The assassins themselves got killed.

0.5/8, Game Over.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

This is how I would have done it

1. Secure all land around the black sea
2. Take the sepretist areas and parts near northern Belarus
3. Devistate Ukrainian Infustructure
4. Seize ukrainian air-feilds and air ports
5. Burn there farms to the ground starving them
6. Crush resistance and take the capital while your at it
7. Take over ukraine
8. kill zelenski in a dramatic way invocing russian nationalism

how would anyone else have done it?

Oh that's so fun! let's play Barbie-Doll with actual real war that is displacing millions, Yeah, How would I ruin a nation for no reason? This is so fun!
And Russia tried all of these.
And Failed.
And bombed the hell out of them.
And still isn't winning.
1: Secure all land around the black sea
Alright, How? There are soldiers there. A lot. The Ukrainian Army operating in Ukraine is larger than the Russian one.
2: Take the seperatist areas and parts near northern belarus
What? You already have the seperatist areas. That's the point. And why are you invading Belarus? Aren't you fighting with them?
3: Devistate Ukrainian Infrastructure
Alright, fair, But it clearly didn't help Russia so.
4: Seize ukrainian air-feilds and air ports
How? there are soldiers there. Again. You can't just say "I take this" because you have a hypothetically larger army and expect it to work. That's what putin tried.
5: Burn there farms to the ground starving them
...
But...
What?
Again, How, you have barely taken any land by this point, only Donbass and Northern Belarus for some reason.
Also, Ukraine imports it's food too.
And starving a nation takes a long time, Russia doesn't have that time.
6. Crush resistance and take the capital while your at it
H.O.W.?! There are MANY soldiers there. You cannot just crush resistance. it's Resistance. It would be forever present.
7. Take over ukraine
How? You haven't taken any land at all, you've crushed no resistance, You have failed to take the capital, You have done multiple war crimes and incited more rebellion in Russia than Russia IRL, Your sanctions are 10x worse than IRL because of the war crimes, and you are about to collapse in approximately half a year. You have made so much more of a mockery than Russia IRL has.
8. kill zelenski in a dramatic way invocing russian nationalism
You've done the opposite. You've immortalized Zelenskyy as a hero and you have destroyed russian Unity.
You have failed spectacularly.

And still, you're playing make believe with a war that is ruining millions of lives. It's seriously messed the fuck up.

[Nova Catania]

I love how everyone is debunking this guy's armchair general to-do-list.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

I love how everyone is debunking this guy's armchair general to-do-list.

I think he legitimately thinks that wars work like in HOI4.

[Latorik]

And that 'quantity is a quality all of its own' comment is a load of bullshit. Even the soviets by ww2 knew that, despite what pop culture depicts. You can have twice the shitty tanks of the other guy, but what people forget is that your logistical lines have to expand as well. Twice the shitty tanks means twice the spare parts. Twice the ammo. Twice the trucks to follow them around.

[Sordhau]

This is how I would have done it

Shit-tier plan. Zero substance or understanding of strategy and modern warfare.

1. Secure all land around the black sea

This would require extensive amphibious landings west of the Dnieper, which Russia is not capable of performing. Along the Sea of Azov they've already done this.

2. Take the sepretist areas and parts near northern Belarus

The Separatist areas were already under Russian control; Ukraine does not border Belarus from the north.

3. Devistate Ukrainian Infustructure

How, what, where, and why? The goal was to conquer and/or install a puppet government in Ukraine. Destroying infrastructure makes rebuilding more difficult as it ties down resources.

4. Seize ukrainian air-feilds and air ports

Impossible. That would require deploying troops all across the country, far from the front where they would be isolated and destroyed. This is why air superiority was crucial, and why the Russian invasion failed the minute they failed to establish air superiority.

5. Burn there farms to the ground starving them

Food imports from sympathetic nations could still come in via the western borders with NATO/EU countries. As Ukraine is a major exporter of wheat this would more likely inflict famine in other countries, which is not good PR. Never mind that armies have always had to rely on resupplying themselves in foreign lands and by burning the farms you've made it harder to feed Russian troops for the invasion. This is how the Russians forced Napoleon to retreat, for fuck's sake. Literally just shooting yourself in the foot with this one.

6. Crush resistance and take the capital while your at it

How? Russia already attempted to blitz the capital and failed. Their frequent war crimes have only emboldened resistance, meanwhile.

7. Take over ukraine

Hardly. The Russians had an actual plan to take Ukraine, which could have worked under the right circumstances. You have no plan at all; just goals you have no idea how to achieve.

8. kill zelenski in a dramatic way invocing russian nationalism

Russians are highly against the war that they see as being waged against their "little brothers" in Ukraine. This would not have the desired effect. The death of Zelenskyy would impact Ukrainian morale more, as well as command efficiency, which is why the Russians have already tried to assassinate him multiple times and failed miserably each time.

how would anyone else have done it?

Well for starters I wouldn't have hinged the entire operation on units with zero combat experience, no supply lines, and easily-cracked communications.

[Risottia]

This is how I would have done it...
how would anyone else have done it?

If I were to conquer Ukraine from Russia and Belarus, I'd FIRST invade Ukraine in the WEST, from Belarus, all along the Polish border, and join up with Transdnistria in the south. THEN attack Odessa from Crimea. But that's only if you want to CONQUER the whole Ukraine.

The point is that Russia supposed first that they would succeed in less that a week with plan A (shock the Ukrainian defense, lead to a pro-Russian military coup in Kiev). Failed. Then they tried to go with plan B (distract Ukraine with the menace of a siege of Kiev and bombings all over the country while linking Crimea and Donbass at Mariupol. Again, failing. Now they're at plan C (force Ukraine into giving Russia the minimum points for victory - that is a non-NATO Ukraine without Crimea and Donbass).

Really, this has been a low for the Russian tradition of careful military planning.

[Deblar]

This is how I would have done it

1. Secure all land around the black sea
2. Take the sepretist areas and parts near northern Belarus
3. Devistate Ukrainian Infustructure
4. Seize ukrainian air-feilds and air ports
5. Burn there farms to the ground starving them
6. Crush resistance and take the capital while your at it
7. Take over ukraine
8. kill zelenski in a dramatic way invocing russian nationalism

how would anyone else have done it?

Congratulations, you've devised a battle plan that is somehow worse than what Russia's actually doing

[Alexander-of-Macedon]

This is how I would have done it

1. Secure all land around the black sea
2. Take the sepretist areas and parts near northern Belarus
3. Devistate Ukrainian Infustructure
4. Seize ukrainian air-feilds and air ports
5. Burn there farms to the ground starving them
6. Crush resistance and take the capital while your at it
7. Take over ukraine
8. kill zelenski in a dramatic way invocing russian nationalism

how would anyone else have done it?

This is significantly dumber than the Russian plan, at least theirs made sense under the pretense that it would be extremely easy and nobody would want to resist. Their mistake was being lazy, arrogant, and reckless in their planning, not that they lacked the strategic genius of a basement groyper.

Btw people from Alexander the Great’s time believed he was attracted to boys, and he may have had sexual relations with men. While it is unclear whether he was actually gay, something tells me knowing there’s a chance would have discouraged you from naming yourself after him.

basement commie

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

This is significantly dumber than the Russian plan, at least theirs made sense under the pretense that it would be extremely easy and nobody would want to resist. Their mistake was being lazy, arrogant, and reckless in their planning, not that they lacked the strategic genius of a basement groyper.

Btw people from Alexander the Great’s time believed he was attracted to boys, and he may have had sexual relations with men. While it is unclear whether he was actually gay, something tells me knowing there’s a chance would have discouraged you from naming yourself after him.

basement commie

basement groyper
see? It's not an effective way of countering a real argument that someone made.
You saw their actual real argument, acknowledged it was hard to counter, then you saw the word "gay" and panicked, instead of actually engaging in professional debate, you insulted them for no reason.
This either makes me thing even you realize they are right, or makes me think you are a troll.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

or makes me think you are a troll.

The account flag didn't tip you off?

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

or makes me think you are a troll.

The account flag didn't tip you off?

Eh, to be fair, I've seen worse from actually serious accounts. Flags don't really tip me off to much. But yeah, it makes more sense now lol.

[Gravlen]

how would anyone else have done it?

1. Successfully invade Ukraine without firing a shot, being greeted as a liberator.
2. Have the world rally around me as a conquering hero, avoiding all sanctions and having every nation offer to become an oblast.
3. Annex the moon in 1988.

[Washington Resistance Army]

how would anyone else have done it?

Go back to 1991 and get the emergency committee to kill Yeltsin so the Soviet Union can plausibly stay together even if it loses some of the dissident republics and negate the need for an invasion entirely.

[Ifreann]

I would simply open the console and use dev commands to annex Ukraine.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I would simply open the console and use dev commands to annex Ukraine.

Honestly it actually kind of feels like we're in a Hearts of Iron game. Like, Putin tried to use paratroopers to take Ukraine's capital the moment the war started. This is a normal cheese strategy in vanilla.

[Luxenermy]

I would simply open the console and use dev commands to annex Ukraine.

Honestly it actually kind of feels like we're in a Hearts of Iron game. Like, Putin tried to use paratroopers to take Ukraine's capital the moment the war started. This is a normal cheese strategy in vanilla.

Thats a fair point lol. HOI4 is obviously not a perfect replica for warfare, maybe not even WW2 era warfare, but a lot of the basics are there at least.

As my failed attempt to take Paris as Nazi Germany without having to wait for the war in the BENELUX once told me, Paratroopers aren't halo esc spartans just because they don't suffer encirclement penalties.

Starting to wonder if Putin plays hoi4?

[Dtn]

I would simply open the console and use dev commands to annex Ukraine.

Honestly it actually kind of feels like we're in a Hearts of Iron game. Like, Putin tried to use paratroopers to take Ukraine's capital the moment the war started. This is a normal cheese strategy in vanilla.

On the other hand your perceptions may be overly shaped by strategy game mechanics.

[Nova Catania]

Honestly it actually kind of feels like we're in a Hearts of Iron game. Like, Putin tried to use paratroopers to take Ukraine's capital the moment the war started. This is a normal cheese strategy in vanilla.

Thats a fair point lol. HOI4 is obviously not a perfect replica for warfare, maybe not even WW2 era warfare, but a lot of the basics are there at least.

As my failed attempt to take Paris as Nazi Germany without having to wait for the war in the BENELUX once told me, Paratroopers aren't halo esc spartans just because they don't suffer encirclement penalties.

Starting to wonder if Putin plays hoi4?

Aide: Mister Presidentski, we have report on war.

Putin: Not now Yuri! I invading Ukraine is going fine, ooh power-up.

Aide: Sir, that is video game.

Putin: No, this is live command center for war.

Aide: No, sir that is video game, in real life we are pummeled.

Putin: Stop interrupting my war command!

Aide: But sir-

Putin: Here, have some tea.

[New Baltenstein]

I would simply open the console and use dev commands to annex Ukraine.

Honestly it actually kind of feels like we're in a Hearts of Iron game. Like, Putin tried to use paratroopers to take Ukraine's capital the moment the war started. This is a normal cheese strategy in vanilla.

Tank rushing the enemy base with zero infantry support gives me more Command & Conquer vibes.
Air-dropping elite paratroopers in the middle of the enemy HQ was a pretty stupid move there, too.

[Christian Confederation]

Honestly it actually kind of feels like we're in a Hearts of Iron game. Like, Putin tried to use paratroopers to take Ukraine's capital the moment the war started. This is a normal cheese strategy in vanilla.

Tank rushing the enemy base with zero infantry support gives me more Command & Conquer vibes.
Air-dropping elite paratroopers in the middle of the enemy HQ was a pretty stupid move there, too.

Just paradrop Kiev and Odessa lmao

[The North Polish Union]

Amateurs. Everyone knows that the real military strategy computer game is Civilization II. Get out of here with this Paradox stuff

[New Baltenstein]

Amateurs. Everyone knows that the real military strategy computer game is Civilization II. Get out of here with this Paradox stuff

Tbf Ukraine definitely deserves its own civ in the next installment. Special units will be Cossacks and Javelin RPG infantry. Also gets bonuses for grain production and fighting against a bigger civ inside its own borders

[Dtn]

Paradox games are useless for understanding warfare.

In Russian conventional war doctrine the VDV is a diversionary force ideally dropped 80 kilometers behind front lines to disrupt defenses. The crucial river crossing near Chernobyl is 75 km north of Hostomel. The Pripyat marshes are an enormous obstacle to armored forces and easily defended in depth - this didn't happen.

Mass paradrops into Kyiv are just a meme. It was a fairly well-executed helicopter assault that took some casualties and dispersed into nearby forests and villages before linking up with ground forces the next day.

However, it was still a partial failure as the main goal was most likely to facilitate fully encircling Kyiv.