Aelosia wrote:OK, I'll give you something. I have sex with my friends. I know a LOT of women who end having sex with their friends. Well, actually with those who for some reason are attracted to, of course.
Congratulations, but it doesn't really have anything to do with ladder theory. Unless there really aren't any men out there who you just wouldn't have sex with, it still works.
What men should really learn, is what Bottle said. Realize that you will find some people you want to have sex with that are not interested in having sex with you. If that is the lesson your warped and quite foolish is trying to teach then fine, but at least accept it is a stupid way to deal with the problem, even if it solves the issue, partially.
Call it a bitter, sad guy thing if you want. But the fact of the matter is that the majority of girls (probably all of them) have had at some point or another had orbiters who would've liked to ask them out/kiss them/have sex with them and never realised it. That's crap, because unrequited love is just about as bad as it gets. The realisation that Hollywood is not a true representation of love and that the good guy doesn't just win because she'll eventually come around to him if he just waits is a first step to a cure. Although I can't really tell you what everyone else gets out of ladder theory, for me back when I first found it, because it fit every single attempt at a relationship I'd had up to that point, it was vital that I found it.
A note though: I think you read the first part about the motivations of women, and focus on that. That part is, for the most part, crap. But if you keep going, there's the concept of the "intellectual whore". That's the part that every "nice guy" out there ought to read, and that's the part I mean when I talk about ladder theory.
In the middle, your ladder theory suggest what is to be a man, thus bombarding you further. AND even more important, it suggests what is to be a woman, and what women wants, and blah blah blah.
Hence why after reading it you move on to the various forums and other information sites that, after tearing down your initial misconceptions, replace them with slightly more successful ones. Be that as it may, the whole talk about "outlaw bikers" in the theory has a point: they are confident, they don't see a problem with what they want and they will take the lead with a woman. All of these are things "nice guys" hardly ever do. Of course the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but if you're sitting on one extreme, the only way to get better is by moving in the direction of the opposite.
Thanks to theories like yours, we women end bored in the end of a bar with a guy speaking of his Mercedes.
You end up bored because you go to a bar and talk to a guy with a Mercedes. Don't blame anyone but yourself for talking to someone you don't want to talk to. But if we want to be bitter and unreasonable about this, consider it just a little bit of payback for that nerdy friend you had in high school and never slept with.
Anyways, the thing that appears to win women's interest (and perhaps heart) in a setting like a bar or a club is status. If a guy walks in there and can be the centre of attention without trying, the guy other guys look up to and everyone wants to talk to, he will be able to pick one out of all the girls there. Go out and watch it, it's so predictable as to be boring. If some people try and replace that with a Mercedes, good luck to them but we all know it's a pointless exercise.
Status comes from the way you carry yourself (or, eventually, things like power and money...maybe), and some people just naturally get it as they grow up. Nice guys don't, which is why they rarely have success in bars, which is why you'll rarely meet them in bars. Call it adverse selection. Getting a guy in such a state to the point where they can not just meet, interest and ask out a girl, but also have a decent relationship without being creepily needy and jealous is a drawn-out process. Ladder theory is like the drill seargeant who yells at you until you cry: he might just be yelling crap, but it sets you up for whatever useful things come afterwards.
Surote wrote:I want to be more but I just don't want to ruin our friendship but I'm going to take a chance and ask her out next school year
That's BS. If you want to ask her out, call her right now. Put an end to the wondering, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. And at any rate, the longer you wait the worse your chances get.
You would ruin your friendship in a second if you knew for sure she'd say yes. If she came into your room at night and asked you to sleep with you, you'd do it. There is nothing wrong with that, and that's the first realisation you have to have. And the fact that you want you to to be a couple, including physically, is what you need to judge everything against. Being her friend is not "pretty good", it's "not good enough".
There is, by the way, absolutely nothing wrong with being friends with a girl. Not even with a girl you used to have sex with. Hell, a priori not even with a girl you would have sex with if the opportunity arose. It becomes wrong when your friendship with this girl stops you from meeting someone you could actually have a romantic relationship with, which is what it almost always does in your situation. And it becomes wrong when you start doing things you don't actually want to do because you think it makes her see you as an even better friend. If you want to be friends with a girl, you have to be friends with her like you would with a guy.