Floridas ¨don´t say gay bill¨

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Liar.

Easier today than before, thanks to information technology.


I said "lecture". Not "learn". If you think kids should be chained to a desk for multiple hours a day, you are the one who needs to reevaluate your views.


...as opposed to having a teacher lie to and indoctrinate them.


A village is a local community. This is fundamentally different from the state. It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers where they are going to be taught to hate me and the community they were raised in. It indeed takes a village to raise a child - not an army of bureaucrats.

the army doesn’t run schools. and are you going to indoctrinate your children less?

This guy lives in the 1940's. He doesn't realise kids these days are more interested in playing CoD than making camp fires.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

the army doesn’t run schools. and are you going to indoctrinate your children less?

This guy lives in the 1940's. He doesn't realise kids these days are more interested in playing CoD than making camp fires.

not only that, but he also is ignoring that most parents don’t have time or energy to teach their children anymore, largely because of low wages the free market he likes created.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Then I can ignore your posturing and pretending to care for the welfare of children. If you don't care for their lives, you don't care about them at all.

The unspoken assumption that you keep making here is that a fetus is in fact a child and that, consequently, care for the interests of a fetus is equivalent to care for the interests of a child, but you may find it enlightening to know that it is not in fact good practice to take a controversial and oft-debated statement and use it as a premise without even bothering to note that you are, in fact, assuming that thing.

Perhaps if your government had bothered to provide you with a more solid public education, you would have learned that in year 7 science class.

[Heloin]

Ah, yes, the "a fetus is a child" comeback. Surely I wouldn't have heard that before a dozen times.

But to give a serious response to your usual conservative nonsense: I lean pro-choice, of course. I actually do find pro-life arguments fairly convincing - certainly a lot more convincing when compared to arguments in favour of abolishing sex education - but on considering the balance of arguments I do lean somewhat pro-choice.

Then I can ignore your posturing and pretending to care for the welfare of children. If you don't care for their lives, you don't care about them at all.

You can support policies that will lead to children being harassed, abused, and even killed then pretend to care about children’s welfare.

[Galiantus III]

...as opposed to having a teacher lie to and indoctrinate them.


A village is a local community. This is fundamentally different from the state. It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers where they are going to be taught to hate me and the community they were raised in. It indeed takes a village to raise a child - not an army of bureaucrats.

the army doesn’t run schools.

Not what I said. Read what I actually said:

It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers

and are you going to indoctrinate your children less?

You trust politically controlled institutions to indoctrinate less than parents?

[Galiantus III]

Then I can ignore your posturing and pretending to care for the welfare of children. If you don't care for their lives, you don't care about them at all.

You can support policies that will lead to children being harassed, abused, and even killed then pretend to care about children’s welfare.

But I don't support that. That is an attempt to poison the well. The fact is you just hate me because I've pointed out the truth. Your goal is to bury me, so no one can see your lies for what they are.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

You trust politically controlled institutions to indoctrinate less than parents?

Yes, actually. I trust a bureaucratic institution to operate in accordance with the laws of bureaucracy to produce predictable and equitable, albeit not always desirable, results.

I don't trust individual people to do anything unless I know them personally.

[The Alma Mater]

School should not be used as a daycare. They are your kids, not the government's.

Then I guess you should have the government increase minimum wage.
Or forbid people with a low income to have kids.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

You can support policies that will lead to children being harassed, abused, and even killed then pretend to care about children’s welfare.

But I don't support that.

That you sanctimoniously imagine your actions have no bad consequences for real people doesn't mean those bad consequences won't happen.

[Heloin]

You can support policies that will lead to children being harassed, abused, and even killed then pretend to care about children’s welfare.

But I don't support that. That is an attempt to poison the well. The fact is you just hate me because I've pointed out the truth. Your goal is to bury me, so no one can see your lies for what they are.

You points deserve to be buried. They are excuses that see abuse as an acceptable outcome and justifies harassment. You end point to anything you can advocate, anything anyone who supports this bill and any like it can advocate, is murder. At best you have decided that children killing themselves is acceptable. At worst you are like my home country and you will see people like me and my friends raped and murdered in order to eliminate LGBT people. You don’t have a truth, only lies and excuses.

[Galiantus III]

School should not be used as a daycare. They are your kids, not the government's.

Then I guess you should have the government increase minimum wage.
Or forbid people with a low income to have kids.

How about people take personal responsibility: If you choose to have kids when you can't support them, you suffer the consequences of your poor decisions.

But I don't support that.

That you sanctimoniously imagine your actions have no bad consequences for real people doesn't mean those bad consequences won't happen.

Florida's bill has no such consequences. The bill simply makes it illegal for schools to go behind parent's backs, or teach sexual material to children below 4th grade. I can assure you no one is being harmed by waiting until they are 8 or 9 to learn about these things, same-sex attraction being only one of many.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

the army doesn’t run schools.

Not what I said. Read what I actually said:

It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers

and are you going to indoctrinate your children less?

You trust politically controlled institutions to indoctrinate less than parents?

yes, I trust a democratic system to teach children better than random crazy parents in rural wyoming who will teach their children to be just as hateful as they are.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

How about people take personal responsibility: If you choose to have kids when you can't support them, you suffer the consequences of your poor decisions.

And also, I might as well point out, their kids. Who then have to suffer through a childhood with parents with neither time nor resources for them.

I feel that this is a point oft-neglected by you "personal responsibility" types.

Florida's bill has no such consequences. The bill simply makes it illegal for schools to go behind parent's backs, or teach sexual material to children below 4th grade. I can assure you no one is being harmed by waiting until they are 8 or 9 to learn about these things, same-sex attraction being only one of many.

I was giggling at pictures of half-naked women on magazine covers in early primary school and had my first crush on a classmate on grade 4. I still remember her name and what she looked like, in fact, even though I forgot basically everything else about that class (it was, after all, many years ago).

But sure, tell me more about how these children are too young to have adults guiding them with their nascent sexual and romantic feelings.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Then I guess you should have the government increase minimum wage.
Or forbid people with a low income to have kids.

How about people take personal responsibility: If you choose to have kids when you can't support them, you suffer the consequences of your poor decisions.

that doesn’t solve the problem, though. the problem is that there are people in those situations. and what about people who loose their jobs and fall into poverty?

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

That you sanctimoniously imagine your actions have no bad consequences for real people doesn't mean those bad consequences won't happen.

Florida's bill has no such consequences. The bill simply makes it illegal for schools to go behind parent's backs, or teach sexual material to children below 4th grade. I can assure you no one is being harmed by waiting until they are 8 or 9 to learn about these things, same-sex attraction being only one of many.

what “sexual material” is being taught to 3rd graders that you want to get rid of?

[Galiantus III]

But I don't support that. That is an attempt to poison the well. The fact is you just hate me because I've pointed out the truth. Your goal is to bury me, so no one can see your lies for what they are.

You points deserve to be buried. They are excuses that see abuse as an acceptable outcome and justifies harassment.

Regulating what sexual material is taught to minors by state employees does not promote abuse or justify harassment. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You end point to anything you can advocate, anything anyone who supports this bill and any like it can advocate, is murder.

Well that escalated quickly. I have never advocated for the murder of the people you baselessly assume I want to murder.

At best you have decided that children killing themselves is acceptable.

No, I have not. This is a delusion you have invented in your own head.

At worst you are like my home country and you will see people like me and my friends raped and murdered in order to eliminate LGBT people.

I have gay family members and I would do absolutely anything to protect them from being raped or murdered - even die. So it is reprehensible to me that you would dare suggest the exact opposite. I am warning you, do not press me on this.

You don’t have a truth, only lies and excuses.

And... that is why you are making up lies about me?

[Necroghastia]

Ah, yes, the "a fetus is a child" comeback. Surely I wouldn't have heard that before a dozen times.

But to give a serious response to your usual conservative nonsense: I lean pro-choice, of course. I actually do find pro-life arguments fairly convincing - certainly a lot more convincing when compared to arguments in favour of abolishing sex education - but on considering the balance of arguments I do lean somewhat pro-choice.

Then I can ignore your posturing and pretending to care for the welfare of children. If you don't care for their lives, you don't care about them at all.

What a non-sequitur.

By whom ? The average American has an 8th grade reading level. You really think they can teach that skill to their kids ?

Yes I do. First, the US was far more literate before the creation of public schools than after.

Source that right now.

Second, I know so because that is roughly how I became literate. My parents got me to about a 3rd grade level through home schooling, then I just started reading all the books at home, and looked in the dictionary when I didn't understand a word. By the time I entered 8th grade I was reading at a 12th grade level.

Good for you. I progressed along the same lines whilst fully attending a public school. This is not evidence.

In addition, they tend to have jobs. School also functions as daycare.

School should not be used as a daycare. They are your kids, not the government's.

And if one is unable to properly educate their children, what is the problem in entrusting their instruction to people that have dedicated their lives to doing so?

No, just cutting through the bullshit. The ideology behind these bills doesn't want LGBT people to exist in society. You think it isn't obvious when you're here trying to call this the "Don't Be A Groomer" bill? When you say that the mere knowledge of the existence of LGBT people is a plot by paedophiles to sexually assault children, you're not going to stop at banning any discussion of them in schools.

Not what I said, so... liar.

The nerve of you to call someone else a liar after the heinous falsehoods you have purveyed in this thread, i.e. the "don't be a groomer" nonsense.

[Heloin]

You points deserve to be buried. They are excuses that see abuse as an acceptable outcome and justifies harassment.

Regulating what sexual material is taught to minors by state employees does not promote abuse or justify harassment. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You end point to anything you can advocate, anything anyone who supports this bill and any like it can advocate, is murder.

Well that escalated quickly. I have never advocated for the murder of the people you baselessly assume I want to murder.

At best you have decided that children killing themselves is acceptable.

No, I have not. This is a delusion you have invented in your own head.

At worst you are like my home country and you will see people like me and my friends raped and murdered in order to eliminate LGBT people.

I have gay family members and I would do absolutely anything to protect them from being raped or murdered - even die. So it is reprehensible to me that you would dare suggest the exact opposite. I am warning you, do not press me on this.

You don’t have a truth, only lies and excuses.

And... that is why you are making up lies about me?

If you support this you support everything that comes with government harassment of LGBT people. There is no teaching small children about sex, there is no grooming, and that you even bring it up as an invented moral panic is you supporting the harassment of LGBT people. I have spoken no lies about you I have only called you what you are, a bigot. And all bigotry ends the exact same way for those you’ve chosen to attack.

[Ifreann]

Of course you want children kept ignorant.

Liar.

You're explicitly arguing against educating children. To deny them education is, necessarily, to keep them ignorant.

Not in this day and age.

Easier today than before, thanks to information technology.

But harder today than before, thanks to a combination of ever-rising costs of living and stagnant wages. Parents do not have the time to dedicate to educating their children, not when they need to work a full time job and a side-hustle to keep the bills paid.

Learning in a classroom is bad but learning at home is good. That way parents can teach their children who to hate before their children can develop a natural tolerance and acceptance of others.

I said "lecture". Not "learn". If you think kids should be chained to a desk for multiple hours a day, you are the one who needs to reevaluate your views.

You did say lecture, yes, but see, children do learn in schools. You can call it lecturing and talk about being chained to a desk to try and make it sound terrible, but the simple fact is that children learn in schools. And you don't want them to learn. You only want them to learn how to read until they're 10. Children who go to school know a lot more than just reading.

Let parents lie to and indoctrinate their children.

...as opposed to having a teacher lie to and indoctrinate them.

No, as opposed to having a teacher whose conduct in the classroom can be monitored as necessary. Or do you want state officials entering every private home to assess how parents are teaching their children?

You never heard the phrase about it taking a village to raise a child? Ah, but what am I saying. As a conservative you of course reject traditional, time-honoured wisdom and good common sense.

A village is a local community. This is fundamentally different from the state. It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers where they are going to be taught to hate me and the community they were raised in. It indeed takes a village to raise a child - not an army of bureaucrats.

A school is part of the community. Teachers are members of the community. And you're saying that children shouldn't be allowed to go to school or learn from teachers until they're ten, and should only learn to read before then.

---

No, just cutting through the bullshit. The ideology behind these bills doesn't want LGBT people to exist in society. You think it isn't obvious when you're here trying to call this the "Don't Be A Groomer" bill? When you say that the mere knowledge of the existence of LGBT people is a plot by paedophiles to sexually assault children, you're not going to stop at banning any discussion of them in schools.

Not what I said, so... liar.

I know you didn't say any of those things, beyond the disgusting groomer comment. But like I said, I'm cutting through the bullshit. You probably won't ever directly say "Death to queers" or anything like that, but when you're making these comparisons to predatory child abusers, we can read between the lines.

---

the army doesn’t run schools. and are you going to indoctrinate your children less?

This guy lives in the 1940's. He doesn't realise kids these days are more interested in playing CoD than making camp fires.

Know what's funny? In the 40s the US had a big childcare programs. It was a necessity, with men off at war and women in the factories making bombs and guns, the only sensible thing to do about all the kids was to get a few adults to look after them all at once. But after the war, Republicans started attacking these programs. "Sovietisation of children" they called it.

[Galiantus III]

Florida's bill has no such consequences. The bill simply makes it illegal for schools to go behind parent's backs, or teach sexual material to children below 4th grade. I can assure you no one is being harmed by waiting until they are 8 or 9 to learn about these things, same-sex attraction being only one of many.

what “sexual material” is being taught to 3rd graders that you want to get rid of?

Well I would certainly like to eliminate the explicit stuff that is somehow ending up there. But this is also preventative: When so-called "experts" want to start sex ed in kindergarten, it is clear there are serious problems on the horizon. Also, Florida's bill is mainly targeted at attempts to hid information from parents, which is perhaps the most serious problem of all.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

There is a reason that society's various whiny minorities are so whiny in the first place - they are extremely well aware of what tends to happen to people who get branded second-class citizens in their own societies. They tend to fiercely resist any attempts to wipe them off the cultural and intellectual lives of the community, because taking away a minority's ability to make their issues and concerns heard within the framework of an open and democratic society is usually the prelude to suppressing them.

And if anyone has any doubts, a quick skim through a biography of Alan Turing's later life should clear up any misunderstandings about what the Christian idea of love and respect means to gay people.

I have an evening to enjoy, so I'll just reiterate my earlier core argument and leave it at that.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

what “sexual material” is being taught to 3rd graders that you want to get rid of?

Well I would certainly like to eliminate the explicit stuff that is somehow ending up there. But this is also preventative: When so-called "experts" want to start sex ed in kindergarten, it is clear there are serious problems on the horizon. Also, Florida's bill is mainly targeted at attempts to hid information from parents, which is perhaps the most serious problem of all.

first article:

These books were never available for our elementary school students despite media statements to the contrary.

hm.

access Sora, a school-sponsored app that makes available Elmbrook’s ebook and audiobook collection to students “for all levels – preschool to adult,”

the books were never intentionally shown to children by schools. this is entirely the platform’s fault.

second article:

Basic foundational concepts such as personal boundaries, different family structures, healthy friendships, treating others with respect, and social-emotional skills need to be introduced early in elementary school.

this is what they mean by “sex ed”. stop fearmongering.

third article:
I don’t have an excuse for this one, but honestly I think it’s the right thing to do. Children need a safe space to express themselves away from abusive parents.

[American Legionaries]

Liar.

Easier today than before, thanks to information technology.


I said "lecture". Not "learn". If you think kids should be chained to a desk for multiple hours a day, you are the one who needs to reevaluate your views.


...as opposed to having a teacher lie to and indoctrinate them.


A village is a local community. This is fundamentally different from the state. It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers where they are going to be taught to hate me and the community they were raised in. It indeed takes a village to raise a child - not an army of bureaucrats.

the army doesn’t run schools. and are you going to indoctrinate your children less?

Where's the line between teaching and I indoctrination?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

There is a reason that society's various whiny minorities are so whiny in the first place - they are extremely well aware of what tends to happen to people who get branded second-class citizens in their own societies. They tend to fiercely resist any attempts to wipe them off the cultural and intellectual lives of the community, because taking away a minority's ability to make their issues and concerns heard within the framework of an open and democratic society is usually the prelude to suppressing them.

And if anyone has any doubts, a quick skim through a biography of Alan Turing's later life should clear up any misunderstandings about what the Christian idea of love and respect means to gay people.

Yeah because their "ideas" are to chemically castrate, torture and ostracise people for wrongthink. And here's us saying "why is not doing any of those things such a bloody motherfucking controversy?"

[Galiantus III]

Liar.

You're explicitly arguing against educating children. To deny them education is, necessarily, to keep them ignorant.

Arguing against government "education". Not against education in general.

Easier today than before, thanks to information technology.

But harder today than before, thanks to a combination of ever-rising costs of living and stagnant wages. Parents do not have the time to dedicate to educating their children, not when they need to work a full time job and a side-hustle to keep the bills paid.

That's what happens when you nearly double the number of people in the workforce.

I said "lecture". Not "learn". If you think kids should be chained to a desk for multiple hours a day, you are the one who needs to reevaluate your views.

You did say lecture, yes, but see, children do learn in schools. You can call it lecturing and talk about being chained to a desk to try and make it sound terrible, but the simple fact is that children learn in schools. And you don't want them to learn. You only want them to learn how to read until they're 10. Children who go to school know a lot more than just reading.

You do realize the whole reason our modern education system is structured the way it is is to prepare people to work in factories, right? It isn't about the welfare of children, but churning out workers who will do what they're told. Children are sponges for information. You don't have to force them to learn.

...as opposed to having a teacher lie to and indoctrinate them.

No, as opposed to having a teacher whose conduct in the classroom can be monitored as necessary. Or do you want state officials entering every private home to assess how parents are teaching their children?

Teachers are state employees, entrusted with doing for parents what they ought to be doing. That is, they are acting on behalf of parents. So what they teach should be closely controlled and monitored. I don't care so much how parents teach their children. It's their child, so their natural right.

A village is a local community. This is fundamentally different from the state. It is idiotic to suggest that a bunch of men with an army should be allowed to demand that my child should go to their indoctrination centers where they are going to be taught to hate me and the community they were raised in. It indeed takes a village to raise a child - not an army of bureaucrats.

A school is part of the community. Teachers are members of the community. And you're saying that children shouldn't be allowed to go to school or learn from teachers until they're ten, and should only learn to read before then.

A school is a government institution. Teachers are state employees. Unless it is a small town, chances are both are very disconnected from the child's actual community.

Not what I said, so... liar.

I know you didn't say any of those things, beyond the disgusting groomer comment. But like I said, I'm cutting through the bullshit. You probably won't ever directly say "Death to queers" or anything like that, but when you're making these comparisons to predatory child abusers, we can read between the lines.

lol no. You are the one making the connections. The bill isn't about targeting gays. It is about keeping grooming out of schools. But you have taken this anti-grooming legislation and interpreted it as an attack on gays. So it is you who sees a connection between pedophilia and being gay. Not me.