American Politics X: Is There A Reset Button Around Here?

[Novus America]

I avoided national service by being unfit for service lmao. Still got money for the period I tried chemical engineering at the oldest university in Sweden which might make you think it was the poshest...

Well I mean avoiding as in not doing it when you are ordered to, not because you are exempt. Exemption and avoidance are generally considered to have different implications.
Yes in Sweden it is more a collective social contract than an individual one.

But the social contract and resulting obligations do exist. Which is the point.

[Gravlen]

Every Swedish citizen gets supported, without fear or favour. The only thing required is academic results. That's clearly not how it works in America.

If you avoid you national service you get prison. I am not 100% sure, but I imagine failing to fulfill it hurts you education prospects as well.
The difference is everyone is expected to fulfill their social obligations and may be punished for failing to do so.

Here you can get it for fulfilling similar obligations but are not required to do so.
Different in that respect absolutely. But if we made similar obligations required here then many of those demanding “feee” college would vehemently object. Which is the point.

To many want the same benefits without the obligations.

Imprisonment for refusing military service are a violation of human rights under the European Convention of Human Rights which all of the Nordic countries are bound by, see Bayatyan v. Armenia.

The case concerned the conviction in 2003 of a conscientious objector - a Jehovah’s Witness - for his refusal to perform military service. He was imprisoned despite Armenia’s undertaking, when joining the Council of Europe on 25 January 2001, to introduce civilian service as an alternative to compulsory military service within three years and to pardon all conscientious objectors sentenced to imprisonment.

[Picairn]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman

Harry Truman never went to college, served in World War One and after returning to Missouri opened a haberdashery in Kansas City.

A recession forced his business to close. A friend of his from the war told his uncle about him and Truman was asked if he wanted to run for Jackson county judge in 1922.

He lost re-election in 1926 and ran for presiding judge where he served until 1934 when he was elected to the senate.

Truman was nominated as the Vice Presidential candidate in 1944 and became president a few months later when FDR died. In 1948 he won re-election in one of the greatest upsets in American history.

Truman is sometimes known as the nobody who became somebody.

Reminder that Truman was selected to be VP because Roosevelt and the Democratic Party leaders thought he was a nobody who would be more moderate and amenable to their interests than Henry Wallace. The fact that Roosevelt did not even inform or consult Truman on major decisions and kept the Manhattan Project as a secret from him prior to the former's death speaks volumes.

[The Jamesian Republic]

Well that is the issue. You want the benefits they get in Sweden without the same social obligations.

The social obligations for getting money for studying in Sweden is merely to get a passing grade and collect whatever points you need for a term. Nothing else.

That’s how it should be. If you have less than a 80 you should have funding revoked.

[San Lumen]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman

Harry Truman never went to college, served in World War One and after returning to Missouri opened a haberdashery in Kansas City.

A recession forced his business to close. A friend of his from the war told his uncle about him and Truman was asked if he wanted to run for Jackson county judge in 1922...

He was a judge without studying law? Sounds bad, actually. What kind of rulings was this random haberdasher handing down?

Truman wasn’t that kind of judge. In Jackson county the position is the equivalent of a county legislator. Presiding judge is the equivalent of county executive.

This isn’t unique and is a rather common position in the south and some areas of the Midwest.

[Novus America]

Well that is the issue. You want the benefits they get in Sweden without the same social obligations.

The social obligations for getting money for studying in Sweden is merely to get a passing grade and collect whatever points you need for a term. Nothing else.

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

The social obligations might be less transactional on an individual level, but that makes this a weird way of looking at it.
The state still expects society as whole to give back. And will even punish those who fail to do so.

Yes here it is an individual rather than a societal wide contract. Which is different in that regard. For better or worse.
But the point is in Sweden there are also some social obligations you have to fulfill that you do not here.

This is another problem with the US federal student loans, there are not enough requirements and oversight, many students do not even show up to class.
When I was in college, I was in a military program. Tuition and boarding paid for, even got a stipend.

But I actually had to show up for class, one 0800 class they did not take attendance, there was some 100 people in the class but by end of semester only all 7 or so military people and some 3 or so of the civilians actually showed up.

The US has a very weak sense of obligations in the post modern era.

[Antipatros]

Who isn’t rich elitist to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_L%C3%B6fven

Edit: That a welder and foster child who dropped out of uni can work his way up to Head of Government speaks of the robustness of Swedish society. That this is impossible in America speaks of the fatal weakness of American society.

Setting aside individual examples, if we look at the data the Nordics have better social mobility than the US. The US is decent, but it's not the top in the world by any means. Some Americans get really offended when you tell them this -- I don't get it.

My god. We need this in America.

Conscription?
Funny that many who love to stan the Nordic countries the hardest seem to not want a lot of what they have.

I don't mind conscription myself, as long as there are alternative forms of service available. I do prefer a volunteer military, though.

[The Jamesian Republic]

The social obligations for getting money for studying in Sweden is merely to get a passing grade and collect whatever points you need for a term. Nothing else.

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

The social obligations might be less transactional on an individual level, but that makes this a weird way of looking at it.
The state still expects society as whole to give back. And will even punish those who fail to do so.

Yes here it is an individual rather than a societal wide contract. Which is different in that regard. For better or worse.
But the point is in Sweden there are also some social obligations you have to fulfill that you do not here.

This is another problem with the US federal student loans, there are not enough requirements and oversight, many students do not even show up to class.
When I was in college, I was in a military program. Tuition and boarding paid for, even got a stipend.

But I actually had to show up for class, one 0800 class they did not take attendance, there was some 100 people in the class but by end of semester only all 7 or so military people and some 3 or so of the civilians actually showed up.

The US has a very weak sense of obligations in the post modern era.

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

[Novus America]

If you avoid you national service you get prison. I am not 100% sure, but I imagine failing to fulfill it hurts you education prospects as well.
The difference is everyone is expected to fulfill their social obligations and may be punished for failing to do so.

Here you can get it for fulfilling similar obligations but are not required to do so.
Different in that respect absolutely. But if we made similar obligations required here then many of those demanding “feee” college would vehemently object. Which is the point.

To many want the same benefits without the obligations.

Imprisonment for refusing military service are a violation of human rights under the European Convention of Human Rights which all of the Nordic countries are bound by, see Bayatyan v. Armenia.

The case concerned the conviction in 2003 of a conscientious objector - a Jehovah’s Witness - for his refusal to perform military service. He was imprisoned despite Armenia’s undertaking, when joining the Council of Europe on 25 January 2001, to introduce civilian service as an alternative to compulsory military service within three years and to pardon all conscientious objectors sentenced to imprisonment.

https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden ... asion/?amp

“Conscientious objectors in Sweden have the right to choose alternative service (called vapenfri tjänst). After completing alternative service, the conscript then belongs to the civilian reserve.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden

Legitimate conscientious objectors are not required to preform military service, but may be required to perform some alternative form of national service.
Which it states in the last sentence of your quote. That case required Armenia to provide an alternative form of national service for legitimate conscientious objectors. It does not remove all penalties for draft evasion.

[Antipatros]

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

The social obligations might be less transactional on an individual level, but that makes this a weird way of looking at it.
The state still expects society as whole to give back. And will even punish those who fail to do so.

Yes here it is an individual rather than a societal wide contract. Which is different in that regard. For better or worse.
But the point is in Sweden there are also some social obligations you have to fulfill that you do not here.

This is another problem with the US federal student loans, there are not enough requirements and oversight, many students do not even show up to class.
When I was in college, I was in a military program. Tuition and boarding paid for, even got a stipend.

But I actually had to show up for class, one 0800 class they did not take attendance, there was some 100 people in the class but by end of semester only all 7 or so military people and some 3 or so of the civilians actually showed up.

The US has a very weak sense of obligations in the post modern era.

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

I think taxes are another good example of what Novus is getting at.

Americans love government services for the most part, but then recoil at the idea of paying taxes for them.

One moment: "Why are the roads so bad?"
The next moment: "Why the hell is this politician trying to raise gas taxes?"

[Novus America]

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

The social obligations might be less transactional on an individual level, but that makes this a weird way of looking at it.
The state still expects society as whole to give back. And will even punish those who fail to do so.

Yes here it is an individual rather than a societal wide contract. Which is different in that regard. For better or worse.
But the point is in Sweden there are also some social obligations you have to fulfill that you do not here.

This is another problem with the US federal student loans, there are not enough requirements and oversight, many students do not even show up to class.
When I was in college, I was in a military program. Tuition and boarding paid for, even got a stipend.

But I actually had to show up for class, one 0800 class they did not take attendance, there was some 100 people in the class but by end of semester only all 7 or so military people and some 3 or so of the civilians actually showed up.

The US has a very weak sense of obligations in the post modern era.

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

But should not you expect to give something back to society if it is giving such benefits to you?
In the Nordic countries the existence of societal obligations is much more real. You get more, but you are expected to give more.

[Ifreann]

The social obligations for getting money for studying in Sweden is merely to get a passing grade and collect whatever points you need for a term. Nothing else.

That’s how it should be. If you have less than a 80 you should have funding revoked.

Why?

---

He was a judge without studying law? Sounds bad, actually. What kind of rulings was this random haberdasher handing down?

Truman wasn’t that kind of judge. In Jackson county the position is the equivalent of a county legislator. Presiding judge is the equivalent of county executive.

This isn’t unique and is a rather common position in the south and some areas of the Midwest.

Trust America to have weird names for things.

[The Jamesian Republic]

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

I think taxes are another good example of what Novus is getting at.

Americans love government services for the most part, but then recoil at the idea of paying taxes for them.

One moment: "Why are the roads so bad?"
The next moment: "Why the hell is this politician trying to raise gas taxes?"

That would work.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

I doubt it affects anything else and people who are genuinely unmotivated to do military service doesn't get selected by the responsible agency anyway, so people getting jailed for outright refusing to do any service while not motivating their decision is nigh unheard of.

[Novus America]

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

I think taxes are another good example of what Novus is getting at.

Americans love government services for the most part, but then recoil at the idea of paying taxes for them.

One moment: "Why are the roads so bad?"
The next moment: "Why the hell is this politician trying to raise gas taxes?"

That to. Tax evasion is a massive problem here, as well as a general anti tax attitude.
It can be somewhat forgiven given the massive waste and often dubious spending, but that is another issue.
Even those calling to raise taxes generally want them raised on someone else.

See for example the SALT fight in the BBB bill as an example of this.

[The Jamesian Republic]

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

But should not you expect to give something back to society if it is giving such benefits to you?
In the Nordic countries the existence of societal obligations is much more real. You get more, but you are expected to give more.

How about 100 hours a month of community service?

That’s how it should be. If you have less than a 80 you should have funding revoked.

Why?

Because it will create an incentive to work harder.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

That’s how it should be. If you have less than a 80 you should have funding revoked.

Why?

If you get shit grades and don't collect the necessary points to advance your studies should you still be getting money earmarked to support those studies?
Edit: They are not literally legally earmarked but one generally understands that actually studying is a prerequisite to getting money from CSN.

[Novus America]

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

I doubt it affects anything else and people who are genuinely unmotivated to do military service doesn't get selected by the responsible agency anyway, so people getting jailed for outright refusing to do any service while not motivating their decision is nigh unheard of.

I want an actual source as to how it impacts education.
And sure it might not be common, especially as most people seem willing to serve if called anyways.
But it is clearly not “unheard of”.
https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden ... asion/?amp

[San Lumen]

That’s how it should be. If you have less than a 80 you should have funding revoked.

Why?

---

Truman wasn’t that kind of judge. In Jackson county the position is the equivalent of a county legislator. Presiding judge is the equivalent of county executive.

This isn’t unique and is a rather common position in the south and some areas of the Midwest.

Trust America to have weird names for things.

In Texas you have the Railroad commission which regulates the oil and gas industry, gas utilities, pipeline safety, safety in the liquefied petroleum gas industry, and surface coal and uranium mining. It ceased regulated railroads in 2005.

[Hispida]

nuclear weapons: deterrence
no nuclear weapons: no deterrence

when two great powers struggle over power, wars will always result
this was the pattern about every century (exlcuding the 19th after napoleon) until the invention of nuclear weapons

Even in the so-called "peaceful" post-Napoleon era, there was no true peace in continental Europe. The big wars of this period were the Crimean War, the Franco-Prussian War, and the Italian Wars of Independence (if you forgot, they were also the playground of a wider struggle between Austria, France, and Prussia). So yes, empires have and will continue to fight each other for power and influence.

true but i was referring to great wars, wars that consume every part of a culture; think the thirty years' war, the world wars, &c.

[Novus America]

But should not you expect to give something back to society if it is giving such benefits to you?
In the Nordic countries the existence of societal obligations is much more real. You get more, but you are expected to give more.

How about 100 hours a month of community service?

Why?

Because it will create an incentive to work harder.

I fully support a civilian option for those unable to fulfill a military obligation due to to genuine moral, physical, or mental limitations or otherwise not fit for military service.
Which is required under international law anyways. Alternative service is fine.

And the details can be negotiated. But I absolutely think while the government can provide more, we should expect those getting such benefits to provide something to society. I would even go as far as extending it to voting but anyways.

[Zurkerx]

Sen. Ron Johnson says it's not 'society's responsibility' to care for 'other people's children' while arguing against child-care subsidies for working parents.

I feel this comment may sting him a bit more, like the other asinine comments he has made.

[Gravlen]

Imprisonment for refusing military service are a violation of human rights under the European Convention of Human Rights which all of the Nordic countries are bound by, see Bayatyan v. Armenia.

The case concerned the conviction in 2003 of a conscientious objector - a Jehovah’s Witness - for his refusal to perform military service. He was imprisoned despite Armenia’s undertaking, when joining the Council of Europe on 25 January 2001, to introduce civilian service as an alternative to compulsory military service within three years and to pardon all conscientious objectors sentenced to imprisonment.

https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden ... asion/?amp

“Conscientious objectors in Sweden have the right to choose alternative service (called vapenfri tjänst). After completing alternative service, the conscript then belongs to the civilian reserve.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden

Legitimate conscientious objectors are not required to preform military service, but may be required to perform some alternative form of national service.
Which it states in the last sentence of your quote. That case required Armenia to provide an alternative form of national service for legitimate conscientious objectors. It does not remove all penalties for draft evasion.

It effectively does. Also, to be clear: Alternative service is not a punishment.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I doubt it affects anything else and people who are genuinely unmotivated to do military service doesn't get selected by the responsible agency anyway, so people getting jailed for outright refusing to do any service while not motivating their decision is nigh unheard of.

I want an actual source as to how it impacts education.
And sure it might not be common, especially as most people seem willing to serve if called anyways.
But it is clearly not “unheard of”.
https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden ... asion/?amp

I'm not finding any sources on how refusing to serve without motivation affects getting money from CSN because that's probably not how things work here. Because according to laws and regulations you are entitled to funds for education even if you are in jail.

[The Jamesian Republic]

How about 100 hours a month of community service?
Why?

Because it will create an incentive to work harder.

I fully support a civilian option for those unable to fulfill a military obligation due to to genuine moral, physical, or mental limitations or otherwise not fit for military service.
Which is required under international law anyways. Alternative service is fine.

And the details can be negotiated. But I absolutely think while the government can provide more, we should expect those getting such benefits to provide something to society. I would even go as far as extending it to voting but anyways.

Perhaps a compromise? You have the option to join the military or community service. If you join the military you have to be in it for a year and you can decide if you want to do it again next year. With community service you are to do 100 hours a month. If you fail to do either then you will have funding revoked.