American Politics X: Is There A Reset Button Around Here?

[Ifreann]

Why?

Because it will create an incentive to work harder.

No, it'll strip people of their ability to pursue an education if they struggle too much with their classes for whatever reason. Come on, surely anyone who's attended any kind of educational institute should know first hand that one's grades are not a simple measure of how hard a student has been working.

A person's desire to learn is all the incentive they need to learn, accommodate them in that and they will get educated. Force them to study and learn on someone else's timetable and they won't.

---

Why?

If you get shit grades and don't collect the necessary points to advance your studies should you still be getting money earmarked to support those studies?

Yes.

[Forsher]

What happens to those who illegally dodge the draft? I am genuinely curious, I cannot find how it relates to education, only that you can get sent to prison.

The social obligations might be less transactional on an individual level, but that makes this a weird way of looking at it.
The state still expects society as whole to give back. And will even punish those who fail to do so.

Yes here it is an individual rather than a societal wide contract. Which is different in that regard. For better or worse.
But the point is in Sweden there are also some social obligations you have to fulfill that you do not here.

This is another problem with the US federal student loans, there are not enough requirements and oversight, many students do not even show up to class.
When I was in college, I was in a military program. Tuition and boarding paid for, even got a stipend.

But I actually had to show up for class, one 0800 class they did not take attendance, there was some 100 people in the class but by end of semester only all 7 or so military people and some 3 or so of the civilians actually showed up.

The US has a very weak sense of obligations in the post modern era.

Couldn’t we do this but without military service? Like the school has to report about attendance and grades and the state decides if you should get funding or not.

There was an observation I was party to once (not sure how, it may have been an aside in a lecture) that ran to the effect of "when university was fees free, students were badly behaved, now that it's interest free*, they sit still and listen".

The reason to take the roll at university is to avoid tragedies like this. They're ubiquitous in lower education partly because it's compulsory but also because the level of care schools have to their pupils is seen to be much, much greater. Like, I was late all the time at primary and at least once a week, probably, I had to go to the office because the roll had been sent to be collated before I got to school. Schools absolutely have to know who's at school.

It seems to me cutting off access to loans if you can't pass courses in a high enough proportion* is better than wasting time having a roll.

*I don't know why this isn't talked about more in the US as a middle road compromise... instead of having free university education, you can access a set number of years of interest free (provided you don't emigrate) loans (subject to passing half your courses). These loans are provided by a government agency, not private companies. They're also paid directly to the provider, not to the student... though you can also borrow living costs (which are paid weekly to your bank account) and are also interest free.

The next moment: "Why the hell is this politician trying to raise gas taxes?"

Tbf that is also the attitude of agencies that maintain roads... electric vehicles are just another means of tax avoidance available to the rich.

[Novus America]

[align=][/align]

I want an actual source as to how it impacts education.
And sure it might not be common, especially as most people seem willing to serve if called anyways.
But it is clearly not “unheard of”.
https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden ... asion/?amp

I'm not finding any sources on how refusing to serve without motivation affects getting money from CSN because that's probably not how things work here. Because according to laws and regulations you are entitled to funds for education even if you are in jail.

And it might be. But that does not change the point that the benefits society gets also comes with obligations to society.
Which is the issue here. Too many people want only benefits, no obligations.

[Novus America]

https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden ... asion/?amp

“Conscientious objectors in Sweden have the right to choose alternative service (called vapenfri tjänst). After completing alternative service, the conscript then belongs to the civilian reserve.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden

Legitimate conscientious objectors are not required to preform military service, but may be required to perform some alternative form of national service.
Which it states in the last sentence of your quote. That case required Armenia to provide an alternative form of national service for legitimate conscientious objectors. It does not remove all penalties for draft evasion.

It effectively does. Also, to be clear: Alternative service is not a punishment.

Then why does Sweden still send some draft dodgers to prison?

Alternative service is not a punishment, but it is still national service. You are not exempt from national service just because your service is the non-military option.

Also although it varies country by country the government does not have to automatically accept your claim of being a conscientious objector. It is true in many cases where the number of those making such a request is relatively low, and not preventing the military from reaching its quota, then it may be de facto be automatically granted while those conditions still exist, but they can put the burden on you to prove you are a conscientious objector.

Being a legitimate conscientious objector is a lot more than “I just do not want to do it, because I am lazy or do not want to risk my life”.

[Novus America]

I fully support a civilian option for those unable to fulfill a military obligation due to to genuine moral, physical, or mental limitations or otherwise not fit for military service.
Which is required under international law anyways. Alternative service is fine.

And the details can be negotiated. But I absolutely think while the government can provide more, we should expect those getting such benefits to provide something to society. I would even go as far as extending it to voting but anyways.

Perhaps a compromise? You have the option to join the military or community service. If you join the military you have to be in it for a year and you can decide if you want to do it again next year. With community service you are to do 100 hours a month. If you fail to do either then you will have funding revoked.

Sure, I would be willing to compromise on something like that. I actually have a national service proposal worked out in detail that would provide civilian options, allow people to rank their choices, and take those choices into account. Moreover your proposal is still infinitely better than the status quo, I am not one to make perfect the enemy of the good, I would vote for your proposal given the opportunity.

The details of what the obligations are and how to fulfill them are absolutely something that can be worked on, and some compromise can be made.

[The Jamesian Republic]

Perhaps a compromise? You have the option to join the military or community service. If you join the military you have to be in it for a year and you can decide if you want to do it again next year. With community service you are to do 100 hours a month. If you fail to do either then you will have funding revoked.

Sure, I would be willing to compromise on something like that. I actually have a national service proposal worked out in detail that would provide civilian options, allow people to rank their choices, and take those choices into account. Moreover your proposal is still infinitely better than the status quo, I am not one to make perfect the enemy of the good, I would vote for your proposal given the opportunity.

The details of what the obligations are and how to fulfill them are absolutely something that can be worked on, and some compromise can be made.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I would be okay with a civilian national service (I’m assuming similar to the defunct Civil Defense?) Though I do prefer having the option to do either or.

[American Legionaries]

To be fair, Maus has some pretty damned haunting imagery, the cartoon style softens it some, but that shit can mess with a kid.

It's an amazing book, but distributing it to pre-teens seems risky.

"Risky"?

Are you having a fucking laugh? That's utter bullshit. There's no risk involved in any meaningful sense of the word. Perhaps you risk young people being disgusted by the events of the Holocaust, but if anything that's a good thing.

Besides, who's talking about pre-teens? This move bans the book from high schools as well as elementary schools. High schoolers and teenagers are not too young to learn about these things. Anti-Semitism isn't dead. Evidently, nazism and facism isn't an historical artifact, but something which exists in present day. It's more risky to not teach about the horrors of the Holocaust.

The worst part is that they hide behind profanity and a single picture of a naked mouse as an excuse here.

Well the article won't load for me now, but it mentioned the 8th grade curriculum, which I suppose is 13 year olds. Nothing I saw in the minutes seemed to imply that the book was to be prohibited to posess by stidents. And no, I'm not having a "fucking laugh", if you think that potentially traumatizing imagery isn't risky to present to children, I'm thankful that you're not part of any school board.

[The Alma Mater]

[align=][/align]

I'm not finding any sources on how refusing to serve without motivation affects getting money from CSN because that's probably not how things work here. Because according to laws and regulations you are entitled to funds for education even if you are in jail.

And it might be. But that does not change the point that the benefits society gets also comes with obligations to society.
Which is the issue here. Too many people want only benefits, no obligations.

Then again, education tends to automatically benefit the state. The return on investment is huge.
Sure, it could potentially be even higher if you stopped all the freeloaders who get the "free" education and then leave the country forever - but implementing a system to track that stuff also takes time and money and is probably not worth the effort.

[Hispida]

Meanwhile, the book bannings continue

Continuing the recent spate of conservative book-banning initiatives, The Mcminn County School board just voted to ban the Pulitzer Prize-winning graphic novel “MAUS” by Art Spiegelman from all of its schools, citing the inclusion of words like “God Damn” and “naked pictures” (illustrations) of women. There is no video available of the meeting, but here are the MINUTES in their entirety.

We called the board and asked if the book being about the Holocaust had anything to do with the decision, and were told it did not. Still, the climate of conservative censorship, the passage of history-whitewashing laws that threaten fines to teachers who teach the truth, and the push towards the banning of books across the state by groups like “Moms for Liberty” makes it fair to question the timing.

The Vote was 10-0, with Yes votes from: Denise Cunningham, Bill Irvin, Quinten Howard, Sharon Brown, Mike Cochran, Mike Lowry, Donna Casteel, Jonathan Pierce, Tony Allman, Rob Shamblin.

Much of the discussion revolved around how books are selected for the curriculum, with finger-pointing at state standards which have become a popular punching bag among conservatives lately. They also discussed the possibility of redacting the words they found objectionable, but decided it would be better to ban the graphic novel altogether.
[…]

Below is what some of the various board members had to say in the meeting (contact info here):

Tony Allman, School Board Member: “Why does the educational system promote this kind of stuff, it is not wise or healthy… I am not denying it was horrible, brutal, and cruel. It’s like when you’re watching tv and a cuss word or nude scene comes on it would be the same movie without it. Well, this would be the same book without it… If I had a child in the eighth grade, this ain’t happening. If I had to move him out and homeschool him or put him somewhere else, this is not happening.”

Jonathan Pierce, School Board Member: “My objection, and I apologize to everyone sitting here, is that my standards matter- and I am probably the biggest sinner and crudest person in this room, can I lay that in front of a child and say read it, or this is part of your reading assignment?”

Mike Cochran, School Board Member: “I went to school here thirteen years. I learned math, English, Reading and History. I never had a book with a naked picture in it, never had one with foul language. In third grade I had one of my classmates come up to me and say hey what’s this word? I sounded it out and it was “damn,” and I was real proud of myself because I sounded it out. She ran straight to the teacher and told her I was cussing. Besides that one book which I think she brought from home, now I’ve seen a cuss word in a textbook at school. So, this idea that we have to have this kind of material in the class in order to teach history, I don’t buy it. “

A few in the room came to the book’s defense. We’re told many teachers in the county are upset about the decision, some seemed in favor of just removing the objectionable words:

Julie Goodin, Instructional Supervisor: “I can talk of the history, I was a history teacher and there is nothing pretty about the Holocaust and for me this was a great way to depict a horrific time in history. Mr. Spiegelman did his very best to depict his mother passing away and we are almost 80 years away. It’s hard for this generation, these kids don’t even know 9/11, they were not even born. For me this was his way to convey the message. Are the words objectionable? Yes, there is no one that thinks they aren’t but by taking away the first part, it’s not changing the meaning of what he is trying to portray and copyright… I have an eighth grader and even if you did pull this book I would want him to read it because we have to teach our kids. Are these words ok? No, not at all that is not acceptable, but the problem is that we are 80 years removed from the Holocaust itself. I just think this is a grave starting point for our teachers. I am very passionate about history, and I would hate to rob our kids of this opportunity. Are we going to be teaching these words outside of this book as vocabulary words? No, you know me better than that Tony Allman. ”

Melasawn Knights, Federal Programs Supervisor: “I think any time you are teaching something from history, people did hang from trees, people did commit suicide and people were killed, over six million were murdered. I think the author is portraying that because it is a true story about his father that lived through that. He is trying to portray that the best he can with the language that he chooses that would relate to that time, maybe to help people who haven’t been in that aspect in time to actually relate to the horrors of it. Is the language objectionable? Sure. I think that is how he uses that language to portray that… We are trying our best to redact the best we can and follow the law and that is what we felt like we have done to address the concerns of that language, the best we could. We think it is a valuable book and most of the supervisors here have read it.”

Steven Brady, Instructional Supervisor: “Every lesson we teach gives us a chance to make a change for the better for our students. When we teach habits of character, we are teaching our students how to be better people. There was a time where that happened every day at home, but when we think about what’s going on now and in the lives our students live in, many of them live in broken homes when they are at one house one day and another house the next. The list goes on and on of the things they have to deal with. Whether we realize it or not, school is the most stable thing in many of our students lives. What students see and hear where they live, may not be appropriate in some settings and we have a chance with every lesson to change what our students see is ok. We get a chance to kind of influence their ethics, their morals, their upbringing. I appreciate the stand that you all are taking to assure the public that we care about our kids, and we believe it’s important to teach our students the difference between right and wrong and help them be ethical people with compassion and morals with respect for others. We are not promoting the use of these words, if anything we are promoting that these words are inappropriate and it’s best that we not use them. It’s inappropriate for school, for our conversation here and you may hear that at home, you may see that on tv, but we do not promote that. There are many lessons that can be learned through this book about how we treat others, how we speak, things that we say, how we act and how to persevere. I just wanted you to get an idea of why these lessons are structured like they are and how this text is just surrounded by excerpts and articles and the things we do to build that background knowledge and the opportunity we have to make a difference in our students lives.”

man, that fucking sucks. maus was one of the first "heavy" books i ever read back in 7th grade.

also, come on. they're worried about swearing in the 8th grade? i was watching filthy frank in 8th grade.

[Gravlen]

It effectively does. Also, to be clear: Alternative service is not a punishment.

Then why does Sweden still send some draft dodgers to prison?

Do they?

The article you provided doesn't show draft dodgers being sent to prison, but deserters. There's a difference, which even the article fails to grasp (though not original article in Swedish it links to, which talks about "avhopp".

But Bengt Forssten, head of division at the Swedish Defence Recruitment Agency, said those conscripted could not simply change their minds.

André menar att han aldrig varit intresserad av att göra värnpliktsutbildning men det kommunicerade han inte under antagningsprocessen, något han i dag ångrar.

Rekryteringsmyndigheten, som ansvarar för antagningen, menar att motivation är en viktig faktor i bedömningen av vilka som ska kallas.

Men att en person ändrar inställning eller ångrar sig kan de inte ta hänsyn till, menar Bengt Forssten, avdelningschef på Rekryteringsmyndigheten.

– Det är inte ett skäl att slippa tjänstgöring, att man ångrar sig eller att motivationen ändras.

If you don't actually say you don't want to serve, but go through the recruitment process without voicing any protests, you may indeed face reactions for desertion.

Alternative service is not a punishment, but it is still national service. You are not exempt from national service just because your service is the non-military option.

Perhaps not in Sweden, but in Norway, where there is no such alternative anymore, you would be. That's a similar country with regard to access to higher education, proving your original point false.

Also although it varies country by country the government does not have to automatically accept your claim of being a conscientious objector. It is true in many cases where the number of those making such a request is relatively low, and not preventing the military from reaching its quota, then it may be de facto be automatically granted while those conditions still exist, but they can put the burden on you to prove you are a conscientious objector.

Being a legitimate conscientious objector is a lot more than “I just do not want to do it, because I am lazy or do not want to risk my life”.

Not really.

How do you prove that someone who refuses military service does it because they're lazy, if they just say "no thank you"?

[San Lumen]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... on-results

Arizona bill would allow legislature to overturn election result


An arch conservative member of Arizona’s state House of Representatives has proposed a mammoth overhaul of the state’s voting procedures that would allow legislators to overturn the results of a primary or general election after months of unfounded allegations and partisan audits.

The bill, introduced by state Rep. John Fillmore (R), would substantially change the way Arizonans vote by eliminating most early and absentee voting and requiring people to vote in their home precincts, rather than at vote centers set up around the state.

Most dramatically, Fillmore’s bill would require the legislature to hold a special session after an election to review election processes and results, and to “accept or reject the election results.”

[Gravlen]

"Risky"?

Are you having a fucking laugh? That's utter bullshit. There's no risk involved in any meaningful sense of the word. Perhaps you risk young people being disgusted by the events of the Holocaust, but if anything that's a good thing.

Besides, who's talking about pre-teens? This move bans the book from high schools as well as elementary schools. High schoolers and teenagers are not too young to learn about these things. Anti-Semitism isn't dead. Evidently, nazism and facism isn't an historical artifact, but something which exists in present day. It's more risky to not teach about the horrors of the Holocaust.

The worst part is that they hide behind profanity and a single picture of a naked mouse as an excuse here.

Well the article won't load for me now, but it mentioned the 8th grade curriculum, which I suppose is 13 year olds. Nothing I saw in the minutes seemed to imply that the book was to be prohibited to posess by stidents.

Yeah, 13 year olds. You know, the class of people who can see PG-13 movies on their own. They're not some delicate souls who'll be utterly destroyed by being exposed to some profanity or seeing a nude picture.

And no, I'm not having a "fucking laugh", if you think that potentially traumatizing imagery isn't risky to present to children,

It's not. This has absolutely no risk of traumatizing 13 year old children. Zero.

And let us again remember that what the school board fears might traumatize the children, is the objectionable language, such as

"damn"

I'm thankful that you're not part of any school board.

Who says I'm not?

[The Jamesian Republic]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/591597-arizona-bill-would-allow-legislature-to-overturn-election-results

Arizona bill would allow legislature to overturn election result


An arch conservative member of Arizona’s state House of Representatives has proposed a mammoth overhaul of the state’s voting procedures that would allow legislators to overturn the results of a primary or general election after months of unfounded allegations and partisan audits.

The bill, introduced by state Rep. John Fillmore (R), would substantially change the way Arizonans vote by eliminating most early and absentee voting and requiring people to vote in their home precincts, rather than at vote centers set up around the state.

Most dramatically, Fillmore’s bill would require the legislature to hold a special session after an election to review election processes and results, and to “accept or reject the election results.”

*sigh*

[San Lumen]

https://cornellsun.com/2022/01/24/mayor ... medium=rss

Ithaca, NY mayor Svante Myrick stepping down effective Feb. 6, accepts job leading People for the American Way.

Alderwoman Laura Lewis will succeed him as mayor. A special election will be held in November to fill the rest of the term with the primary to be held in June.

[Untecna]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/591597-arizona-bill-would-allow-legislature-to-overturn-election-results

Arizona bill would allow legislature to overturn election result


An arch conservative member of Arizona’s state House of Representatives has proposed a mammoth overhaul of the state’s voting procedures that would allow legislators to overturn the results of a primary or general election after months of unfounded allegations and partisan audits.

The bill, introduced by state Rep. John Fillmore (R), would substantially change the way Arizonans vote by eliminating most early and absentee voting and requiring people to vote in their home precincts, rather than at vote centers set up around the state.

Most dramatically, Fillmore’s bill would require the legislature to hold a special session after an election to review election processes and results, and to “accept or reject the election results.”

And the Earth itself facepalmed.

[The Jamesian Republic]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/591597-arizona-bill-would-allow-legislature-to-overturn-election-results

Arizona bill would allow legislature to overturn election result


An arch conservative member of Arizona’s state House of Representatives has proposed a mammoth overhaul of the state’s voting procedures that would allow legislators to overturn the results of a primary or general election after months of unfounded allegations and partisan audits.

The bill, introduced by state Rep. John Fillmore (R), would substantially change the way Arizonans vote by eliminating most early and absentee voting and requiring people to vote in their home precincts, rather than at vote centers set up around the state.

Most dramatically, Fillmore’s bill would require the legislature to hold a special session after an election to review election processes and results, and to “accept or reject the election results.”

And the Earth itself facepalmed.

So basically if the candidate they like didn’t win they can just throw out the results?

[San Lumen]

And the Earth itself facepalmed.

So basically if the candidate they like didn’t win they can just throw out the results?

Seems like it. I very much doubt this passes and would almost certainly be struck down in court.

[The Jamesian Republic]

So basically if the candidate they like didn’t win they can just throw out the results?

Seems like it. I very much doubt this passes and would almost certainly be struck down in court.

Hopefully. This doesn’t sound constitutional.

[San Lumen]

Seems like it. I very much doubt this passes and would almost certainly be struck down in court.

Hopefully. This doesn’t sound constitutional.

A bill to decertify the election in Wisconsin was shot down by the leadership in the state assembly therefore I have doubts this ever gets to the floor.

[Incelastan]

Hopefully. This doesn’t sound constitutional.

A bill to decertify the election in Wisconsin was shot down by the leadership in the state assembly therefore I have doubts this ever gets to the floor.

Ironically, the same state that illegally suppressed the Green Party. Democrats want to be the only ones controlling elections. Can't have competition.

[Incelastan]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/591597-arizona-bill-would-allow-legislature-to-overturn-election-results

Arizona bill would allow legislature to overturn election result


An arch conservative member of Arizona’s state House of Representatives has proposed a mammoth overhaul of the state’s voting procedures that would allow legislators to overturn the results of a primary or general election after months of unfounded allegations and partisan audits.

The bill, introduced by state Rep. John Fillmore (R), would substantially change the way Arizonans vote by eliminating most early and absentee voting and requiring people to vote in their home precincts, rather than at vote centers set up around the state.

Most dramatically, Fillmore’s bill would require the legislature to hold a special session after an election to review election processes and results, and to “accept or reject the election results.”

And the Earth itself facepalmed.

Meh, it's Arizona. We used to have a "Constitutional Defense Fund" and people openly talking secession. State legislators doing so, in fact. Cockfighting was legal until the late 90s, but fornication was illegal. Selling your child was technically legal until the legislature realized how embarrassing that was for Arizona. Hell, our Governors include a racist car dealer impeached for campaign funds misuse and a real-estate developer who defrauded a union pension fund and got away without serving a day in jail while on appeal, and then was pardoned by outgoing President Bill Clinton!

[San Lumen]

A bill to decertify the election in Wisconsin was shot down by the leadership in the state assembly therefore I have doubts this ever gets to the floor.

Ironically, the same state that illegally suppressed the Green Party. Democrats want to be the only ones controlling elections. Can't have competition.

what are you talking about?

[Incelastan]

Ironically, the same state that illegally suppressed the Green Party. Democrats want to be the only ones controlling elections. Can't have competition.

what are you talking about?

The suppression of the Green Party on the Wisconsin ballot by legal challenge by Democrats in 2020. Democratic hypocrisy is my point. They're right that the GOP is stealing elections, and that is wrong. They're also wrong to forget how they seek to suppress opposition to themselves. Remember, the DNC claimed to be a private club in a court of law in response to a lawsuit about their structural manipulation of the 2016 primaries in favor of Hillary over Bernie.

[San Lumen]

what are you talking about?

The suppression of the Green Party on the Wisconsin ballot by legal challenge by Democrats in 2020. Democratic hypocrisy is my point. They're right that the GOP is stealing elections, and that is wrong. They're also wrong to forget how they seek to suppress opposition to themselves. Remember, the DNC claimed to be a private club in a court of law in response to a lawsuit about their structural manipulation of the 2016 primaries in favor of Hillary over Bernie.

How did they suppress them? There are rules that must be followed and if you don't your not on the ballot.

Can we not rehash the primary again? There was no manipulation and no rigging. Its time to let this go.

[Corrian]

Gerrymandering go brrrrrt

NY is possibly going with a 23-3 map.