NATION

PASSWORD

Hypothetical Re: Rainforest Mining

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do you say to the proposed plan?

Yes (I’m buying the bombers and giving the green light)
7
32%
No (it’s time to move on)
15
68%
 
Total votes : 22

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Hypothetical Re: Rainforest Mining

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:13 pm

Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful CEO in a dystopic society. Pressured by your shareholders and seeing a huge opportunity to make money, you travel to a remote rainforest and begin a mining operation of dubious legality.

You bring a few dozen workers with you, lots of industrial equipment, and a small company of mercenaries to act as security.

The indigenous tribes scout out your destruction of the forest from a distance; they realize you plan to raze their ancestral lands for profit. They then send a bunch of raiders led by an elite boy warrior calling himself Jungle Boy to dismantle and sabotage your operation.

Despite having technological advantage and more people on your side, Jungle Boy and his company use guerrilla warfare tactics and strategic raids to pick you off. Your mercenaries are eventually baited into a trap and defeated. You then find yourself surrounded by the returning angry tribesmen and their spears.



The tribal chief forces your people to rebuild and replant the forest without the use of modern equipment. You are horrified as you witness your people being forced to move fallen trunks around, digging out roots, and kneeling down in mud to reseed the earth amidst the horrors of the forest (bees, snakes, and other horrific things) and the rainstorms.

Your accountant attempts to start a revolution but it is quickly crushed by the tribesmen.

You are relieved that as the leader, you don’t have to do the horrific manual labor. However, Jungle Boy sits atop your shoulders and makes you carry him from place to place as he bosses your people around, basically using you as a living transport and making you witness the depths to which your people have fallen. There are tribal guards around at all the time but that’s not necessarily the point… you have become so traumatized, mentally subjugated and horrified that you don’t really dare to try and escape nor throw the little monster off.

After the entire forest is properly seeded, you and what’s left of your people are allowed to return to the Empire.

Some of your cohorts try to petition the Empire to avenge this great insult but the Emperor says he can’t be involved, though he’s “hands off.” The Emperor warns you very strictly that he doesn’t want any more Imperial citizens setting foot on that cursed soil.

At a business meeting, a business advisor suggest to you that you purchase a few Imperial bombers and use them to level specific targets on the rainforest. He tells you that he’s confirmed with the Empire and they don’t care so long as there are no “boots on the ground.”

However, other people tell you you should move on. Your business is in bad shape now and buying a few bombers and carrying out this op? It makes no economic sense. However, you haven’t necessarily gotten over what the tribe has done (even though technically speaking, you were the aggressor first).

Do you buy the bombers and try to take revenge?

Or do you let it go?

Please explain your reasoning.

While it would be tempting to use the bombers, I think overall I’m more of a practical person and I don’t see much utility in wasting money to do this sort of thing. Furthermore, I’m able to come to terms with what happened because technically, I was the aggressor in the first place. While there’s a human response to want to call the air strike, I think morally and legally it just doesn’t hold up.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Umeria
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Postby Umeria » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:22 pm

I would hire a therapist to talk me out of it, that way I make the right decision and I'm also psychologically healed
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:32 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:The tribal chief forces your people to rebuild and replant the forest without the use of modern equipment. You are horrified as you witness your people being forced to move fallen trunks around, digging out roots, and kneeling down in mud to reseed the earth amidst the horrors of the forest (bees, snakes, and other horrific things) and the rainstorms.

lol

Your accountant attempts to start a revolution but it is quickly crushed by the tribesmen.

ha, get fucked.

You are relieved that as the leader, you don’t have to do the horrific manual labor. However, Jungle Boy sits atop your shoulders and makes you carry him from place to place as he bosses your people around, basically using you as a living transport and making you witness the depths to which your people have fallen. There are tribal guards around at all the time but that’s not necessarily the point… you have become so traumatized, mentally subjugated and horrified that you don’t really dare to try and escape nor throw the little monster off.

i’d of just had me shot.

Do you buy the bombers and try to take revenge?

I begin sending vast amounts of weapons to the good tribesmen and other groups like them around the world.

While it would be tempting to use the bombers, I think overall I’m more of a practical person and I don’t see much utility in wasting money to do this sort of thing. Furthermore, I’m able to come to terms with what happened because technically, I was the aggressor in the first place. While there’s a human response to want to call the air strike, I think morally and legally it just doesn’t hold up.

There is not a single second in the OP where I am possibly in the right.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:36 pm

I would send roses to jungle boy every day until my little dom agrees to marry me.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 pm

I buy the bombers and use them to carry out an indiscriminate terror bombing campaign of the society that enables this sorta shit.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:43 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:I would send roses to jungle boy every day until my little dom agrees to marry me.

Add a correction to my post, the crates of arms I’m sending will include roses for my love.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:56 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:I would send roses to jungle boy every day until my little dom agrees to marry me.


There’s definitely an element of domination and subjugation in this scenario.

In this scenario, you are a CEO, someone who personifies the imperialistic, capitalistic, money-focused emphasis of modern day civilization. You’ve come to this rainforest and you’re like “I’m going control this place. I’m going to convert the greeness of this natural rainforest into the green dollar backs. I will dominate this environment. It is mine because I have the workers, the money, the guns, the technology and the business sense.”

And then on the other side you have the tribe and this Jungle Boy character… not entirely heroic either but they represent in a way, nature and primitive society’s way of re-asserting itself. JB is saying:

“No Sir/Ma’am, the world doesn’t work that way/shouldn’t work that way/doesn’t have to work that way. We can respect nature. We can respect traditions and remember where we come from. Perhaps we must.”

And it’s this clash of worldviews, this wrestling for control and domination. At the end of the day, you can call the bombers but if you do… with everything the tribe managed to make you do… can that honestly still count as a win? I’m not sure.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:58 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Vikanias
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Postby Vikanias » Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:21 am

Hell yeah dude, bomb that little bastard to whatever god he believes and back.
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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:04 am

This is all completely insane. There is zero possibility that, as the powerful CEO of a corporation that can plausibly purchase bombers, I'm personally overseeing a few dozen dudes mining in a jungle. I'm in a luxurious penthouse on a different continent snorting coke off a woman half my age and an underling's underling's underling's underling is the guy actually on the ground giving orders to the miners. Maybe a few more underlings.

"My accountant" — by which I assume you mean "the head of the army of accountants that it takes to keep a major corporation afloat" — has never been there, either. To him it's just a number in a cell on a spreadsheet. Or more likely just one of the things that goes into generating the number in the cell on the spreadsheet, because there's a guy in a cubicle twenty floors down whose job it is to deal with generating that number. Who has never actually seen the place either; just the numbers that that underling's etc. underling reports.

As a powerful CEO, there are no moral or ethical dimensions to this decision. It's just a question of whether there's net profit in napalming these irritants out of existence and getting on with extracting their resources. These calculations should take into account how useful the bombers might be in removing other obstacles that our resource extraction division faces elsewhere in the world.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:25 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:


'Kay, let's go.

You are a powerful CEO in a dystopic society. Pressured by your shareholders and seeing a huge opportunity to make money


Aaaand this is as usual so far removed from me I cannot comment on this character's actions. I'm out.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:36 am

Eahland wrote:This is all completely insane. There is zero possibility that, as the powerful CEO of a corporation that can plausibly purchase bombers, I'm personally overseeing a few dozen dudes mining in a jungle. I'm in a luxurious penthouse on a different continent snorting coke off a woman half my age and an underling's underling's underling's underling is the guy actually on the ground giving orders to the miners. Maybe a few more underlings.

"My accountant" — by which I assume you mean "the head of the army of accountants that it takes to keep a major corporation afloat" — has never been there, either. To him it's just a number in a cell on a spreadsheet. Or more likely just one of the things that goes into generating the number in the cell on the spreadsheet, because there's a guy in a cubicle twenty floors down whose job it is to deal with generating that number. Who has never actually seen the place either; just the numbers that that underling's etc. underling reports.

As a powerful CEO, there are no moral or ethical dimensions to this decision. It's just a question of whether there's net profit in napalming these irritants out of existence and getting on with extracting their resources. These calculations should take into account how useful the bombers might be in removing other obstacles that our resource extraction division faces elsewhere in the world.


It wouldn’t help you extract the resources. It would purely be an emotional/honor- based decision. The Empire has already made the tribal lands off limits regardless of the results of your bombing.

Empire has decided “Oh they fight back? And they are many oceans away? Yeah not worth the mess.”

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:22 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Eahland wrote:This is all completely insane. There is zero possibility that, as the powerful CEO of a corporation that can plausibly purchase bombers, I'm personally overseeing a few dozen dudes mining in a jungle. I'm in a luxurious penthouse on a different continent snorting coke off a woman half my age and an underling's underling's underling's underling is the guy actually on the ground giving orders to the miners. Maybe a few more underlings.

"My accountant" — by which I assume you mean "the head of the army of accountants that it takes to keep a major corporation afloat" — has never been there, either. To him it's just a number in a cell on a spreadsheet. Or more likely just one of the things that goes into generating the number in the cell on the spreadsheet, because there's a guy in a cubicle twenty floors down whose job it is to deal with generating that number. Who has never actually seen the place either; just the numbers that that underling's etc. underling reports.

As a powerful CEO, there are no moral or ethical dimensions to this decision. It's just a question of whether there's net profit in napalming these irritants out of existence and getting on with extracting their resources. These calculations should take into account how useful the bombers might be in removing other obstacles that our resource extraction division faces elsewhere in the world.


It wouldn’t help you extract the resources. It would purely be an emotional/honor- based decision. The Empire has already made the tribal lands off limits regardless of the results of your bombing.

Empire has decided “Oh they fight back? And they are many oceans away? Yeah not worth the mess.”


So we were blatantly illegally mining that land? That is/always was off-limits?

Frankly the only sane choice then is to carry out a cover-up and hope no environmentalist or human rights lawyers find any records of this insane and illegal operation. Would be very embarrassing having to testify all of this to a court of law as is.
Last edited by Chan Island on Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:01 am

Chan Island wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
It wouldn’t help you extract the resources. It would purely be an emotional/honor- based decision. The Empire has already made the tribal lands off limits regardless of the results of your bombing.

Empire has decided “Oh they fight back? And they are many oceans away? Yeah not worth the mess.”


So we were blatantly illegally mining that land? That is/always was off-limits?

Frankly the only sane choice then is to carry out a cover-up and hope no environmentalist or human rights lawyers find any records of this insane and illegal operation. Would be very embarrassing having to testify all of this to a court of law as is.


Well yes. The Empire is kind of a rogue actor though on the international stage and international law in the IM Verse is very weak.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:10 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
So we were blatantly illegally mining that land? That is/always was off-limits?

Frankly the only sane choice then is to carry out a cover-up and hope no environmentalist or human rights lawyers find any records of this insane and illegal operation. Would be very embarrassing having to testify all of this to a court of law as is.


Well yes. The Empire is kind of a rogue actor though on the international stage and international law in the IM Verse is very weak.


Doesn’t matter how weak the international law is, the press coverage alone talking about how some jungle boy beat my mercenaries and forced us to replant the rainforest would destroy my reputation. The verdict would be of secondary concern.

Nobody finds out any of this happens.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:11 am

Chan Island wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Well yes. The Empire is kind of a rogue actor though on the international stage and international law in the IM Verse is very weak.


Doesn’t matter how weak the international law is, the press coverage alone talking about how some jungle boy beat my mercenaries and forced us to replant the rainforest would destroy my reputation. The verdict would be of secondary concern.

Nobody finds out any of this happens.


I agree. It would be kind of embarrassing.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:14 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful CEO in a dystopic society.

I resign immediately and fill my pockets with office supplies on the way out.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:17 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful CEO in a dystopic society.

I resign immediately and fill my pockets with office supplies on the way out.

Fight the power.

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Utquiagvik
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Postby Utquiagvik » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:17 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful CEO in a dystopic society.

I resign immediately and fill my pockets with office supplies on the way out.

Same here, i would just resign.
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Dogmeat
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Postby Dogmeat » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:26 am

Despite the existence of an apparently super-powered "Jungle Boy," a CEO actually being in the rainforest with his workers is the most unrealistic part of this hypothetical.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:31 am

Ug make fire. Mod ban Ug.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:33 am

Dogmeat wrote:Despite the existence of an apparently super-powered "Jungle Boy," a CEO actually being in the rainforest with his workers is the most unrealistic part of this hypothetical.

Especially since this is clearly an illegal operation. Just gonna go get directly involved in the crimes in the rainforest for some reason.

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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:08 am

As some piece of shit CEO no because that would be a waste of money for no real gain and as me also no because I would never have been such a piece of shit to find myself in this kind of situation nor blame the indigenous people for their response.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:56 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Do you buy the bombers and try to take revenge?


Bombers? How dreadfully expensive.
Just a couple of small, incospicuous light aircrafts and lots of flu and corona viruses sprayed repeatedly in the area. Oooh, measles, too. How about some cholera and ebola and yellow fever? Tyhpus?

And it's not revenge. It's just "cleaning the area". Nothing personal while I wipe off the tribe.
Later, ooh, look, a pristine area ready to be used... by a local company, of course, which happens to be 51% property of another foreign company, which happens to be 51% property of mine.
Last edited by Risottia on Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:41 am

Risottia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Do you buy the bombers and try to take revenge?


Bombers? How dreadfully expensive.
Just a couple of small, incospicuous light aircrafts and lots of flu and corona viruses sprayed repeatedly in the area. Oooh, measles, too. How about some cholera and ebola and yellow fever? Tyhpus?

And it's not revenge. It's just "cleaning the area". Nothing personal while I wipe off the tribe.
Later, ooh, look, a pristine area ready to be used... by a local company, of course, which happens to be 51% property of another foreign company, which happens to be 51% property of mine.


This is kind of inventive. I'm actually kind of impressed with this. It's a plausible response to what the OP suggests your character has gone through; it takes the setup and uses it in a way that mixes things right.

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Kalaron
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Postby Kalaron » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:36 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful CEO in a dystopic society. Pressured by your shareholders and seeing a huge opportunity to make money, you travel to a remote rainforest and begin a mining operation of dubious legality.

You bring a few dozen workers with you, lots of industrial equipment, and a small company of mercenaries to act as security.

The indigenous tribes scout out your destruction of the forest from a distance; they realize you plan to raze their ancestral lands for profit. They then send a bunch of raiders led by an elite boy warrior calling himself Jungle Boy to dismantle and sabotage your operation.

Despite having technological advantage and more people on your side, Jungle Boy and his company use guerrilla warfare tactics and strategic raids to pick you off. Your mercenaries are eventually baited into a trap and defeated. You then find yourself surrounded by the returning angry tribesmen and their spears.



The tribal chief forces your people to rebuild and replant the forest without the use of modern equipment. You are horrified as you witness your people being forced to move fallen trunks around, digging out roots, and kneeling down in mud to reseed the earth amidst the horrors of the forest (bees, snakes, and other horrific things) and the rainstorms.

Your accountant attempts to start a revolution but it is quickly crushed by the tribesmen.

You are relieved that as the leader, you don’t have to do the horrific manual labor. However, Jungle Boy sits atop your shoulders and makes you carry him from place to place as he bosses your people around, basically using you as a living transport and making you witness the depths to which your people have fallen. There are tribal guards around at all the time but that’s not necessarily the point… you have become so traumatized, mentally subjugated and horrified that you don’t really dare to try and escape nor throw the little monster off.

After the entire forest is properly seeded, you and what’s left of your people are allowed to return to the Empire.

Some of your cohorts try to petition the Empire to avenge this great insult but the Emperor says he can’t be involved, though he’s “hands off.” The Emperor warns you very strictly that he doesn’t want any more Imperial citizens setting foot on that cursed soil.

At a business meeting, a business advisor suggest to you that you purchase a few Imperial bombers and use them to level specific targets on the rainforest. He tells you that he’s confirmed with the Empire and they don’t care so long as there are no “boots on the ground.”

However, other people tell you you should move on. Your business is in bad shape now and buying a few bombers and carrying out this op? It makes no economic sense. However, you haven’t necessarily gotten over what the tribe has done (even though technically speaking, you were the aggressor first).

Do you buy the bombers and try to take revenge?

Or do you let it go?

Please explain your reasoning.

While it would be tempting to use the bombers, I think overall I’m more of a practical person and I don’t see much utility in wasting money to do this sort of thing. Furthermore, I’m able to come to terms with what happened because technically, I was the aggressor in the first place. While there’s a human response to want to call the air strike, I think morally and legally it just doesn’t hold up.


It depends on the barbarity of the Tribe in their treatment of my men, and the exact reasoning the Tribe had in denying the usage of advanced technology. If they really just went hamhog into brutal slavery and forbade it to see more of my men suffer and die, then blood should pay for blood while the world goes blind.

Mind, I also have issues with the enslavement part, and even if they were "nice" about it, I'd send them a message through some peaceful means to inform them that taking any person as a slave, who is not part tribal conflicts willingly (by which I mean they had attempted to ingratiate themselves into one of the Tribes), I would obliterate their homes and people to the best extent I could, with weaponry they would not understand or find themselves able to fight.

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