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Operation Artemis

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:33 pm
by Infected Mushroom
Please consider the following hypothetical:

It is 1939. Greece is different. You’ve suddenly got modern 2020 Greece, it’s infrastructure, military, population, production + all NSGers (now speaking Greek).

The following countries are determined to wipe modern Greece from the map.

Nazi Germany
Fascist Italy
British Empire
French Empire
Soviet Union
Japanese Empire

No other country can join the war. Every side will fight until victory conditions are met, no matter casualties. No nukes, biological and chemical weapons.

The following countries will now fight on the side of Greece:
Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, China, United States of America
Every other country on the Greek side except for the USA has their 2020 infrastructure, population and weapons based on the regions they control.

Allied victory conditions: Take over Athens.
Greek victory conditions: Hold Berlin, Moscow and Paris

Greece has its 21st century weapons but has its weaknesses in population and resources. You are required to fight in this war on the Greek side in a direct combat role and you can choose whatever placement you want (and get good training for it).

Can Greece win? Or will they get overrun?

Two discussion questions:
1. Can Greece win this war with the victory conditions? If not, how long can they last and how close? Analyze and discuss.
2. What is your role in the war? Why do you choose this?


I think Greece can win if they take the initiative and run down several countries and grab key resources, especially the oil in Romania. The Greeks would have a huge advantage in firepower though limited resources would force them to attack to quickly get them. I’m thinking the Greeks can then use a small force with lots of firepower to hold off the massive Soviet Forces while focusing on invading Germany and France. In the Med, the modern Greek fleet should be untouchable.

If forced to fight, I would like to serve on a Greek surface warship with guided missiles. I’d go navy because I like high tech ships and don’t think I could handle flying at high speeds nor fighting on the ground.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:41 pm
by Heloin
A lot of people would die then Greece would lose. Well that was a quick hypothetical.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:45 pm
by Infected Mushroom
Heloin wrote:A lot of people would die then Greece would lose. Well that was a quick hypothetical.


Oh?

How would the war play out in your view? Battles and campaigns? Expected outcomes?

What role would you take?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:55 pm
by Heloin
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:A lot of people would die then Greece would lose. Well that was a quick hypothetical.


Oh?

How would the war play out in your view? Battles and campaigns? Expected outcomes?

Unimportant honestly. The Hellenic armed forces at full capacity could never reach the same size as most of the world armed against them. It doesn't matter what tactics are used, what technology is exploited, what battles are fought. Greece can't win.

What role would you take?

Whatever the Greek equivalent to the Finance Corps is.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:04 pm
by Thermodolia
The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:08 pm
by Thermodolia
Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Oh?

How would the war play out in your view? Battles and campaigns? Expected outcomes?

Unimportant honestly. The Hellenic armed forces at full capacity could never reach the same size as most of the world armed against them. It doesn't matter what tactics are used, what technology is exploited, what battles are fought. Greece can't win.

What role would you take?

Whatever the Greek equivalent to the Finance Corps is.

You should join me in running to the US, or Turkey or anywhere other than Greece

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:13 pm
by Heloin
Thermodolia wrote:
Heloin wrote:Unimportant honestly. The Hellenic armed forces at full capacity could never reach the same size as most of the world armed against them. It doesn't matter what tactics are used, what technology is exploited, what battles are fought. Greece can't win.


Whatever the Greek equivalent to the Finance Corps is.

You should join me in running to the US, or Turkey or anywhere other than Greece

I think we're being forced to fight against our will for the Greeks. And if that is the case then I want to be as far from the front as possible.

If I don't have to live in Greece then I'll run off to the Zambezi valley and start a anti-colonial revolt against Great Granddad.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:17 pm
by Infected Mushroom
Thermodolia wrote:The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide


But we have 21st century weapons and tech

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:18 pm
by Heloin
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide


But we have 21st century weapons and tech

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:19 pm
by Untecna
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide


But we have 21st century weapons and tech

Bullets from 1939 are still bullets.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:21 pm
by Thermodolia
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide


But we have 21st century weapons and tech

That matters not to the human waves of the mighty red army.

But in all honesty you’ve created a scenario where 12 nations, 11 of which are in the immediate area, against one. What exactly did you think was going to happen?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:27 pm
by Thermodolia
Heloin wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You should join me in running to the US, or Turkey or anywhere other than Greece

I think we're being forced to fight against our will for the Greeks. And if that is the case then I want to be as far from the front as possible.

If I don't have to live in Greece then I'll run off to the Zambezi valley and start a anti-colonial revolt against Great Granddad.

If we are forced to join the Greeks then I’m a Greek military attaché to the USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:45 pm
by New Baltenstein
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide


But we have 21st century weapons and tech


10,000 Zulus with prehistoric equipment have beaten 1000 British armed with state of the art Rifles and artillery.
And in your scenario, the odds would be even more colossaly mismatched. Even if every single, and I do mean every single, anti tank grenade/missile currently in the possession of the Greek armed forces produced a direct hit the warring nations would still have hundreds of thousands of armored vehicles to drown the country.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:10 am
by Neanderthaland
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The Soviet military during WW2 at its peak had roughly 20 million troops. Modern day Greece has 10 million people. And this is just the Soviets. Throw in the other 11 nations and Greece is fucked, hope you like genocide


But we have 21st century weapons and tech

Some? A lot of the Hellenic armed forces uses antiquated technology. Their air force is still using F-4 Phantom IIs, for instance. Although apparently they're planning on purchasing some F-35As to replace them. A list of their ground vehicles shows mostly outdated German and American 20th century designs.

It doesn't really matter though. What are they going to do to stop 10 million enemy soldiers from just walking into the country? They don't have enough ordinance to kill that many people. Even if the soldiers were nice enough to from big mass-infantry formations like a Napoleonic army, and march stoically towards enemy fire, the Greeks would still run out of ammo.

Which they can't really make more of, because they import almost all of their supplies and equipment from other NATO countries.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:23 am
by Infected Mushroom
Thank you for your inputs.

So I’m getting the sense that it’s not very balanced.

How would I create a more balanced scenario that pits a 2020 country/alliance of countries against the world of 1939?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:30 am
by Picairn
Infected Mushroom wrote:Thank you for your inputs.

So I’m getting the sense that it’s not very balanced.

How would I create a more balanced scenario that pits a 2020 country/alliance of countries against the world of 1939?

You don't. One nation against the world is already an insurmountable war.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:40 am
by The Alma Mater
Why would Greece fight ? It can just get a monopoly on gentech, computers, television, fast food restaurants, polio vaccines etc. and become the worlds leading economy by far.

In your victory conditions all nations on the planet do not act human...

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:02 am
by Heloin
This is your brain. This is your brain on Hearts of Iron. Any questions.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:21 am
by Stellar Colonies
Infected Mushroom wrote:Thank you for your inputs.

So I’m getting the sense that it’s not very balanced.

How would I create a more balanced scenario that pits a 2020 country/alliance of countries against the world of 1939?

it’s not very balanced

To put it lightly.

A common hypothetical along these lines is something like modern Poland vs 1939 Germany, although I'm pretty sure you or someone else did that here already.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:28 am
by Unified Communist Councils
Make versus match-up hypotheticals that don't sound like weird stomp fiction.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:01 am
by Infected Mushroom
Stellar Colonies wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Thank you for your inputs.

So I’m getting the sense that it’s not very balanced.

How would I create a more balanced scenario that pits a 2020 country/alliance of countries against the world of 1939?

it’s not very balanced

To put it lightly.

A common hypothetical along these lines is something like modern Poland vs 1939 Germany, although I'm pretty sure you or someone else did that here already.


That was me.

Now how about modern Russia vs 1930s USA, British Empire, Japan, Germany, Italy?

Is that fair?

Russia is a modern-day great power and a huge arms manufacturer, it’s sitting on tons of natural resources and it has a bit population; I could set a win condition that gives Russia a fair shot?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:05 am
by The Alma Mater
Neanderthaland wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
But we have 21st century weapons and tech

Some? A lot of the Hellenic armed forces uses antiquated technology. Their air force is still using F-4 Phantom IIs, for instance. Although apparently they're planning on purchasing some F-35As to replace them. A list of their ground vehicles shows mostly outdated German and American 20th century designs.

It doesn't really matter though. What are they going to do to stop 10 million enemy soldiers from just walking into the country? They don't have enough ordinance to kill that many people. Even if the soldiers were nice enough to from big mass-infantry formations like a Napoleonic army, and march stoically towards enemy fire, the Greeks would still run out of ammo.

Which they can't really make more of, because they import almost all of their supplies and equipment from other NATO countries.


Then again, I assume that in this scenario the Greeks also have retained all their knowledge about the previous decades. Meaning that they know exactly where all the secret command centers of their enemies are.

Now that I think about it - they also have the knowledge to blackmail influential persons in the other nations.
And the technology to *fabricate* stuff to blackmail with. Pictures of Himmler having sexual relations with a goat ? Easypeasy.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:19 am
by The Hazar Amisnery
well modern greece is a small country in terms of population (10 million) and there were way more soldiers in WW2 so Greece might have a few major victories but they would be outnumbered by all the combined forces.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:25 am
by The Huskar Social Union
Greece loses. Even with modern military hardware it is soo hilariously outnumbered, outgunned and outproduced that it would lose.
Heloin wrote:This is your brain. This is your brain on Hearts of Iron. Any questions.

Guys he just needs to build 40 width mediums

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:39 am
by Heloin
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:
it’s not very balanced

To put it lightly.

A common hypothetical along these lines is something like modern Poland vs 1939 Germany, although I'm pretty sure you or someone else did that here already.


That was me.

Now how about modern Russia vs 1930s USA, British Empire, Japan, Germany, Italy?

Is that fair?

Russia is a modern-day great power and a huge arms manufacturer, it’s sitting on tons of natural resources and it has a bit population; I could set a win condition that gives Russia a fair shot?

Russia nukes Berlin, Washington, Toyko, London, and Rome.

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Greece loses. Even with modern military hardware it is soo hilariously outnumbered, outgunned and outproduced that it would lose.
Heloin wrote:This is your brain. This is your brain on Hearts of Iron. Any questions.

Guys he just needs to build 40 width mediums

` annex GER