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Operation Artemis

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How would you contribute to the fighting?

Greek infantry
5
10%
Greek armor and land battle vehicles
4
8%
Greek artillery
5
10%
Greek special forces/snipers
8
16%
Greek jet fighter pilot
9
18%
Greek attack helicopter
3
6%
Greek surface warship/capital ship
7
14%
Greek submarine
8
16%
 
Total votes : 49

User avatar
Ristally
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Aug 11, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ristally » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:39 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:It is 1939. Greece is different. You’ve suddenly got modern 2020 Greece, it’s infrastructure, military, population, production + all NSGers (now speaking Greek).


Greece is fucked, lol.
Last edited by Ristally on Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Galiantus III
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1215
Founded: Jan 23, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:44 pm

Greece would lose:

First, geography. If the scenario was instead all of the listed nations against an island-based nation (such as Ireland) with a military like the one Greece has in this scenario, it is conceivable the island nation could win. This is because the advantages of modern technology relative to 1939 technology are very relevant for air and naval combat. Unfortunately for Greece, it isn't protected in this way. Invading enemy soldiers don't need to be shipped or flown to invade. They can drive and walk.

Second, logistics. In the island nation scenario, managing the fighting would be strategically simple. With no ground battles to worry about, the island nation could basically just focus on air superiority and be fine. Greece, on the other hand, would be obligated to meet the enemy on air, land, and sea all at once. Therefore its effectiveness in all three areas would suffer, and losing superiority anywhere would only signal an inevitable defeat.

Third, numbers. The fundamental problem here is conventional warfare hasn't changed so significantly between 1939 and now. Infantry, armor, artillery, and special forces will engage on a similar playing filed. Perhaps Greek soldiers do indeed have an advantage: they may be better equipped and trained, they may have greater range and intelligence, and these advantages may compound into serious morale problems for enemy soldiers. However, this is simply not significant enough for Greece to win. As others have said, the fundamental idea of shooting the other guy before he shoots you is the same. No matter how things start, the unavoidable fact here is the sheer number of troops available to fight would overrun Greek ground forces.




The only way I could see Greece pulling out a win is via some deception combined with shock-and-awe tactics (i.e. nukes, which aren't allowed). The only stand-in for this is an extremely vicious, aggressive opening move. A desperate hail-Mary using as much air weaponry as possible to wreak havoc on the capitol cities of the enemy, taking out as many leaders and as much infrastructure as possible - especially communications. This accomplishes two things: first, it would cause confusion among the enemy nations, and second, it would give the impression that Greece is much stronger than it actually is. The hope is that this would cause many of the enemy nations to adopt a defensive posture, rather than attack, and render their collective military powers unable to coordinate. If this succeeds (and that's a big if), Greece would leverage its air force to maintain confusion and disrupt supply lines, covering its advancing armies. A Greek win would hinge entirely on its ability to maximize the information it has and minimize the information the enemy has. Any major screw-up with its land forces would be disastrous.
Last edited by Galiantus III on Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:57 pm

Hammer Britannia wrote:The only way Greece would last more than a week in this scenario is if Zeus himself came down from his home in Mount Olympus to fuck shit up. If it was modern Greece vs, say, the Ancient World? Maybe. But not every WW2 nation except the United States.

Therefore, I choose not to fight directly and instead become a priest. Because Divine Intervention is the only way Greece would survive.


Good idea, maybe I should edit in some Greek gods. I'll think on it.

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:57 pm

Galiantus III wrote:Greece would lose:

First, geography. If the scenario was instead all of the listed nations against an island-based nation (such as Ireland) with a military like the one Greece has in this scenario, it is conceivable the island nation could win. This is because the advantages of modern technology relative to 1939 technology are very relevant for air and naval combat. Unfortunately for Greece, it isn't protected in this way. Invading enemy soldiers don't need to be shipped or flown to invade. They can drive and walk.

Second, logistics. In the island nation scenario, managing the fighting would be strategically simple. With no ground battles to worry about, the island nation could basically just focus on air superiority and be fine. Greece, on the other hand, would be obligated to meet the enemy on air, land, and sea all at once. Therefore its effectiveness in all three areas would suffer, and losing superiority anywhere would only signal an inevitable defeat.

Third, numbers. The fundamental problem here is conventional warfare hasn't changed so significantly between 1939 and now. Infantry, armor, artillery, and special forces will engage on a similar playing filed. Perhaps Greek soldiers do indeed have an advantage: they may be better equipped and trained, they may have greater range and intelligence, and these advantages may compound into serious morale problems for enemy soldiers. However, this is simply not significant enough for Greece to win. As others have said, the fundamental idea of shooting the other guy before he shoots you is the same. No matter how things start, the unavoidable fact here is the sheer number of troops available to fight would overrun Greek ground forces.




The only way I could see Greece pulling out a win is via some deception combined with shock-and-awe tactics (i.e. nukes, which aren't allowed). The only stand-in for this is an extremely vicious, aggressive opening move. A desperate hail-Mary using as much air weaponry as possible to wreak havoc on the capitol cities of the enemy, taking out as many leaders and as much infrastructure as possible - especially communications. This accomplishes two things: first, it would cause confusion among the enemy nations, and second, it would give the impression that Greece is much stronger than it actually is. The hope is that this would cause many of the enemy nations to adopt a defensive posture, rather than attack, and render their collective military powers unable to coordinate. If this succeeds (and that's a big if), Greece would leverage its air force to maintain confusion and disrupt supply lines, covering its advancing armies. A Greek win would hinge entirely on its ability to maximize the information it has and minimize the information the enemy has. Any major screw-up with its land forces would be disastrous.


Ah I see. Still, I think Greece could at least pull up a valiant heroic and very impressive fight right? Even though they don't win?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Galiantus III
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1215
Founded: Jan 23, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:07 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Ah I see. Still, I think Greece could at least pull up a valiant heroic and very impressive fight right?


It is certainly conceivable they could net more kills of military personnel than they have citizens. Whether that is valiant, heroic, or impressive is another discussion entirely.
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For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
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Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:09 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Ah I see. Still, I think Greece could at least pull up a valiant heroic and very impressive fight right?


It is certainly conceivable they could net more kills of military personnel than they have citizens. Whether that is valiant, heroic, or impressive is another discussion entirely.


I see. Well thanks for your very in-depth analysis of the situation. =)

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Bloodstained Castle
Secretary
 
Posts: 30
Founded: Jan 15, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Bloodstained Castle » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:17 pm

Why Greece to begin with?

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:32 pm

Alright. As has been pointed out by many posters, the setup of the scenario is too imbalanced. I would like to give Greece some 1939 allies.

Please standby for edits to the OP.

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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:38 pm

The following countries are now allies to Greece (to make it more fair):

Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, China, United States of America


Please carry on.

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Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24465
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:51 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:The following countries are now allies to Greece (to make it more fair):

Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, China, United States of America


Please carry on.

You play too many video games. And no. How Would China survive a joint British, French, Soviet, and Japanese invasion? How much quicker would the Balkans fall seeing the Germans and Soviets bearing down on them? How would the United States be able to advance into a Pacific united against them? How would the United States land a single soldier in Europe?

China

Also
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The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24491
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:44 pm

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:The following countries are now allies to Greece (to make it more fair):



Please carry on.

You play too many video games. And no. How Would China survive a joint British, French, Soviet, and Japanese invasion? How much quicker would the Balkans fall seeing the Germans and Soviets bearing down on them? How would the United States be able to advance into a Pacific united against them? How would the United States land a single soldier in Europe?


They would have 2022 tech. They can airdrop drones and soldiers everywhere they want.
Of course, if they do not actually *have* the tech ready but need to adjust production according to the blueprints received from Greece, time is not on their side.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:56 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Heloin wrote:You play too many video games. And no. How Would China survive a joint British, French, Soviet, and Japanese invasion? How much quicker would the Balkans fall seeing the Germans and Soviets bearing down on them? How would the United States be able to advance into a Pacific united against them? How would the United States land a single soldier in Europe?


They would have 2022 tech. They can airdrop drones and soldiers everywhere they want.
Of course, if they do not actually *have* the tech ready but need to adjust production according to the blueprints received from Greece, time is not on their side.


They do have 2022 tech. Except for the USA (would be too unbalanced).

I clarified in the OP. You make good points.

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Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24465
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:37 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
They would have 2022 tech. They can airdrop drones and soldiers everywhere they want.
Of course, if they do not actually *have* the tech ready but need to adjust production according to the blueprints received from Greece, time is not on their side.


They do have 2022 tech. Except for the USA (would be too unbalanced).

I clarified in the OP. You make good points.

Firstly Yugoslavia doesn’t exist.

Secondly. China nukes Tokyo, Berlin, Moscow, London, Paris, etc.

And if you’re going to try and bs me on nukes then the PLA will steamroll Japan, the Soviets, and just about anyone else who comes at them.
Honkbal Hoofdklasse on my radio tonight, I hear the team announcements and I know the time is right
And I know I mustn't say it though I feel it in the air, a home run for Rotterdam's Dirk van Beer!


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Infected Mushroom
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Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:48 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
They do have 2022 tech. Except for the USA (would be too unbalanced).

I clarified in the OP. You make good points.

Firstly Yugoslavia doesn’t exist.

Secondly. China nukes Tokyo, Berlin, Moscow, London, Paris, etc.

And if you’re going to try and bs me on nukes then the PLA will steamroll Japan, the Soviets, and just about anyone else who comes at them.


Yugoslavia would have the combined population, economic, military, natural and infrastructural resources of whatever occupies that land in 2020.

The scenario is intended to be a no WMD setup. I was hoping for large scale conventional battles.

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The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24491
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:57 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Firstly Yugoslavia doesn’t exist.

Secondly. China nukes Tokyo, Berlin, Moscow, London, Paris, etc.

And if you’re going to try and bs me on nukes then the PLA will steamroll Japan, the Soviets, and just about anyone else who comes at them.


Yugoslavia would have the combined population, economic, military, natural and infrastructural resources of whatever occupies that land in 2020.

The scenario is intended to be a no WMD setup. I was hoping for large scale conventional battles.


As I pointed out earlier, that will not happen in real life. We either get dronefest or superspy blackmail.
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Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24465
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:04 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Firstly Yugoslavia doesn’t exist.

Secondly. China nukes Tokyo, Berlin, Moscow, London, Paris, etc.

And if you’re going to try and bs me on nukes then the PLA will steamroll Japan, the Soviets, and just about anyone else who comes at them.


Yugoslavia would have the combined population, economic, military, natural and infrastructural resources of whatever occupies that land in 2020.

thanks. i hate it.

The scenario is intended to be a no WMD setup. I was hoping for large scale conventional battles.

Imagine the Gulf war on a global scale. That’s what you’d get with the modern PLA vs anyone then. What you want is the kind of battles that occurred in WW2. Battles that could only occur in WW2 with the military doctrine of the time. You could just read a book about Kursk if you wanted to read about battles like that.
Honkbal Hoofdklasse on my radio tonight, I hear the team announcements and I know the time is right
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Infected Mushroom
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Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:50 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Yugoslavia would have the combined population, economic, military, natural and infrastructural resources of whatever occupies that land in 2020.

thanks. i hate it.

The scenario is intended to be a no WMD setup. I was hoping for large scale conventional battles.

Imagine the Gulf war on a global scale. That’s what you’d get with the modern PLA vs anyone then. What you want is the kind of battles that occurred in WW2. Battles that could only occur in WW2 with the military doctrine of the time. You could just read a book about Kursk if you wanted to read about battles like that.


So the Soviets would be invaded from two fronts? Would this happen? Or would Japan be focused first?

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 71249
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:03 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Firstly Yugoslavia doesn’t exist.

Secondly. China nukes Tokyo, Berlin, Moscow, London, Paris, etc.

And if you’re going to try and bs me on nukes then the PLA will steamroll Japan, the Soviets, and just about anyone else who comes at them.


Yugoslavia would have the combined population, economic, military, natural and infrastructural resources of whatever occupies that land in 2020.

The scenario is intended to be a no WMD setup. I was hoping for large scale conventional battles.

Large scale Conventional battles didn’t happen all that often in WW2 either.
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Thermodolia
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Posts: 71249
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:06 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:thanks. i hate it.


Imagine the Gulf war on a global scale. That’s what you’d get with the modern PLA vs anyone then. What you want is the kind of battles that occurred in WW2. Battles that could only occur in WW2 with the military doctrine of the time. You could just read a book about Kursk if you wanted to read about battles like that.


So the Soviets would be invaded from two fronts? Would this happen? Or would Japan be focused first?

Japan and the USSR would get smushed by modern day China almost immediately.

First off by 1939 Japan had control over a lot of China. Throwing modern day China into the mix means that Japan is basically stuck to the home islands and Korea.

All you have done is insure that the PRC dominates the east
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New Saharia
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Posts: 80
Founded: Jul 10, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Saharia » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:15 am

I would love to drive around in a Hellenic Leopard 2. We would certainly lose, but I'll have the last stand of a lifetime against German and Soviet armored pushes, just lighting them up from kilometers away with pinpoint accuracy until I run out of ammo.

That would be our biggest problem. They have more tanks, planes and troops than we would bullets, shells and missiles.

Would be an epic stand though.
Last edited by New Saharia on Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Risottia
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Posts: 54094
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Postby Risottia » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:08 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Can Greece win? Or will they get overrun?

Utterly overrun.
They can't even refine oil. Not to mention building motors or projectiles for cannons.
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Infected Mushroom
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Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:30 pm

Risottia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Can Greece win? Or will they get overrun?

Utterly overrun.
They can't even refine oil. Not to mention building motors or projectiles for cannons.


They've got Romania on their team though.

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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54094
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Postby Risottia » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:57 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Risottia wrote:Utterly overrun.
They can't even refine oil. Not to mention building motors or projectiles for cannons.


They've got Romania on their team though.

1940 Romania.
Lol.
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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:31 am

New Saharia wrote:I would love to drive around in a Hellenic Leopard 2. We would certainly lose, but I'll have the last stand of a lifetime against German and Soviet armored pushes, just lighting them up from kilometers away with pinpoint accuracy until I run out of ammo.

That would be our biggest problem. They have more tanks, planes and troops than we would bullets, shells and missiles.

Would be an epic stand though.


Would you be firing the main turret or operating one of the top-side heavy machine guns?

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Kannap
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66128
Founded: May 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kannap » Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am

The modern Greek army has a wartime strength of 750,000 men. This army would be outnumbered by any one of the enemies you listed in the OP by themselves. Facing all of them? Greece is fucked.
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