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How would you contribute to the fighting?

Greek infantry
5
10%
Greek armor and land battle vehicles
4
8%
Greek artillery
5
10%
Greek special forces/snipers
8
16%
Greek jet fighter pilot
9
18%
Greek attack helicopter
3
6%
Greek surface warship/capital ship
7
14%
Greek submarine
8
16%
 
Total votes : 49

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Untecna
Senator
 
Posts: 3705
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Untecna » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:04 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Also, IM, you talk about technology a lot but why aren't you factoring in reverse engineering?

Because then his team might lose again and he'd have to rewrite the rules again.

We all know that would mean having to start all over again...
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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:32 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
A very important point indeed.

I'll also add that in addition to Team 1930s production dropping due to the vulnerability of the Caucasus and other areas to long range bombing by jet fighters and cruise missiles (they won't have 3+ years to hit those peaks),

the USA's massive production is in this case is going towards Team 2020. As is China, 2020's number one top manufacturer of goods and one of the modern world's largest economies.

Soviet Union also wouldn't be getting Lend-Lease, and neither will Great Britain.


USA 1939 is useless for 2020 powers, perhaps apart from providing some raw materials but they're too far from the theatre, so it's not economically wise to get materials from them.
China already got Malaysia oilfields (British Empire), there's no need to get oil from USA.
Turkey is gonna getting Iraq and Kuwait (both British), not just the Caucasus.


Yeah having Turkey is a real game changer eh?

All that access to oil. I do like the idea of Greece and Turkey, traditional rivals, overcoming their differences and standing side by side.

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Kannap
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Founded: May 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kannap » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:10 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
USA 1939 is useless for 2020 powers, perhaps apart from providing some raw materials but they're too far from the theatre, so it's not economically wise to get materials from them.
China already got Malaysia oilfields (British Empire), there's no need to get oil from USA.
Turkey is gonna getting Iraq and Kuwait (both British), not just the Caucasus.


Yeah having Turkey is a real game changer eh?

All that access to oil. I do like the idea of Greece and Turkey, traditional rivals, overcoming their differences and standing side by side.


Which begs the question: Why would Greece and Turkey - who are constantly at each others throats and the source of various incidents between each other even to the modern day - work together? Seems to me more likely if you teleported them back in time to a warzone, they'd finally have the chains off to go to war with each other.
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Heloin
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Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:15 pm

Kannap wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Yeah having Turkey is a real game changer eh?

All that access to oil. I do like the idea of Greece and Turkey, traditional rivals, overcoming their differences and standing side by side.


Which begs the question: Why would Greece and Turkey - who are constantly at each others throats and the source of various incidents between each other even to the modern day - work together? Seems to me more likely if you teleported them back in time to a warzone, they'd finally have the chains off to go to war with each other.

Greece would sooner work with Nazi Germany. So would Turkey.
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Neanderthaland
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Founded: Sep 10, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Neanderthaland » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:18 pm

Heloin wrote:
Kannap wrote:
Which begs the question: Why would Greece and Turkey - who are constantly at each others throats and the source of various incidents between each other even to the modern day - work together? Seems to me more likely if you teleported them back in time to a warzone, they'd finally have the chains off to go to war with each other.

Greece would sooner work with Nazi Germany. So would Turkey.

It would probably be a more interesting fight, for precisely this reason.

Who could these nations call in on their sides? And how much of an effect would their allies have on the outcome?

Turkey has larger standing forces, and would seem to have an advantage. But Greece seems like they would be better able to summon strong allies.
Last edited by Neanderthaland on Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kannap
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66128
Founded: May 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kannap » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:54 pm

Heloin wrote:
Kannap wrote:
Which begs the question: Why would Greece and Turkey - who are constantly at each others throats and the source of various incidents between each other even to the modern day - work together? Seems to me more likely if you teleported them back in time to a warzone, they'd finally have the chains off to go to war with each other.

Greece would sooner work with Nazi Germany. So would Turkey.


The whole Greek alliance in this scenario is more likely to instantly be at each other's throats than work together. I mean - the descendants of Yugoslavia? You want Serbia to work with Croatia? You want Bosnia and Herzegovina to work with either of them? You think Kosovo is going to go along with any of Serbia's bullshit? Bulgaria working with Greece? Ha, they've had their eyes on the land they lost to the Greeks over a century ago. North Macedonia is on the chopping block if Greece has any say on the matter. Romania working with Hungary instead of fighting each other over Transylvania? Albania will probably be at Serbia's throat if Serbia bombs Kosovo (there's a sizable Albanian population living in Kosovo). Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

This whole scenario is loosely held together by the lack of understanding that all of these people hate each other.
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Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24465
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:55 pm

Kannap wrote:
Heloin wrote:Greece would sooner work with Nazi Germany. So would Turkey.


The whole Greek alliance in this scenario is more likely to instantly be at each other's throats than work together. I mean - the descendants of Yugoslavia? You want Serbia to work with Croatia? You want Bosnia and Herzegovina to work with either of them? You think Kosovo is going to go along with any of Serbia's bullshit? Bulgaria working with Greece? Ha, they've had their eyes on the land they lost to the Greeks over a century ago. North Macedonia is on the chopping block if Greece has any say on the matter. Romania working with Hungary instead of fighting each other over Transylvania? Albania will probably be at Serbia's throat if Serbia bombs Kosovo (there's a sizable Albanian population living in Kosovo). Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

We should be struggling together!

This whole scenario is loosely held together by the lack of understanding that all of these people hate each other.

The whole scenario is like any reddit post about how Hitler could win WW2. The only way it can make sense is if you totally ignore everything else surrounding it.
Honkbal Hoofdklasse on my radio tonight, I hear the team announcements and I know the time is right
And I know I mustn't say it though I feel it in the air, a home run for Rotterdam's Dirk van Beer!


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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:59 pm

A 2.0 version of this thread (with new alliances) is underway and scheduled for launch in a few weeks-1 month, taking into account all constructive criticisms.

I want to take the time to thank everyone for contributing. In the meantime, please carry on.

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New Baltenstein
Envoy
 
Posts: 315
Founded: Jan 07, 2022
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Baltenstein » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:19 am

Kannap wrote:
Heloin wrote:Greece would sooner work with Nazi Germany. So would Turkey.


The whole Greek alliance in this scenario is more likely to instantly be at each other's throats than work together. I mean - the descendants of Yugoslavia? You want Serbia to work with Croatia? You want Bosnia and Herzegovina to work with either of them? You think Kosovo is going to go along with any of Serbia's bullshit? Bulgaria working with Greece? Ha, they've had their eyes on the land they lost to the Greeks over a century ago. North Macedonia is on the chopping block if Greece has any say on the matter. Romania working with Hungary instead of fighting each other over Transylvania? Albania will probably be at Serbia's throat if Serbia bombs Kosovo (there's a sizable Albanian population living in Kosovo). Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

This whole scenario is loosely held together by the lack of understanding that all of these people hate each other.


For what it's worth, countries can be surprisingly flexible regarding their traditional animosities when it comes to switching sides during multinational, rather than local, conflicts. Take the trio of Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria - in the short time span of 1912 to 1918, you saw every possible combination of two of those being allied against the third. Also in the 30ies and 40ies relations between Greece and Turkey were at the most cordial they had ever been - Turkey could have partaken in the annexation of Greek territory, they were invited (read: pressured) by the Axis to do so but didn't.
Granted they still never would have joined Greece in taking on all the great powers of the time.
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Ifreann
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Posts: 152186
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:48 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:A 2.0 version of this thread (with new alliances) is underway and scheduled for launch in a few weeks-1 month, taking into account all constructive criticisms.

Why?
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Untecna
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Posts: 3705
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Untecna » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:19 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:A 2.0 version of this thread (with new alliances) is underway and scheduled for launch in a few weeks-1 month, taking into account all constructive criticisms.

Why?

So we can't say anything against it.
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Political Beliefs
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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:32 am

Untecna wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why?

So we can't say anything against it.

We won't be able to nipick anything if IM just stops posting these threads.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing

no war but class war
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Kannap
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66128
Founded: May 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kannap » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:14 am

Ifreann wrote:
Untecna wrote:So we can't say anything against it.

We won't be able to nipick anything if IM just stops posting these threads.


Don't threaten me with a good time
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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:29 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:A 2.0 version of this thread (with new alliances) is underway and scheduled for launch in a few weeks-1 month, taking into account all constructive criticisms.

Why?


Threads get recalibrated from time to time with an objective to generate healthy discussion.

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Ifreann
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Posts: 152186
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:58 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why?


Threads get recalibrated from time to time with an objective to generate healthy discussion.

That makes no sense. There was pages and pages of healthy discussion before you started editing the premise of this thread. You aren't trying to generate healthy discussion, you're trying to get us to agree with the answer you want, which is obviously the modern day nation winning. What I don't understand is why you want to do that. Why do you care about getting people to agree with you? Why are you involving us at all?
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Socialist States of Ludistan
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Founded: Apr 21, 2020
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Postby Socialist States of Ludistan » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:03 pm

So you’re asking what would happen if every single superpower had one goal in mind, and that goal was to destroy Greece? In that case Greece would get destroyed, big time, it wouldn’t at all matter that they had modern equipment. Greece wouldn’t not stand a chance.
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Neanderthaland
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Ex-Nation

Postby Neanderthaland » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:50 pm

Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:So you’re asking what would happen if every single superpower had one goal in mind, and that goal was to destroy Greece? In that case Greece would get destroyed, big time, it wouldn’t at all matter that they had modern equipment. Greece wouldn’t not stand a chance.

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The Two Jerseys
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Two Jerseys » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:48 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:So you’re asking what would happen if every single superpower had one goal in mind, and that goal was to destroy Greece? In that case Greece would get destroyed, big time, it wouldn’t at all matter that they had modern equipment. Greece wouldn’t not stand a chance.

Our katyusha will blot out the sun!

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Chessmistress
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Founded: Mar 16, 2015
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Postby Chessmistress » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:42 pm

Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:So you’re asking what would happen if every single superpower had one goal in mind, and that goal was to destroy Greece? In that case Greece would get destroyed, big time, it wouldn’t at all matter that they had modern equipment. Greece wouldn’t not stand a chance.


No, in IM scenario there aren't superpowers against Greece 2020:
There are Soviet Union 1939, Nazi Germany 1939, British Empire 1939, French Empire 1939, Japan 1939, Italy 1939. Nothing more.
Since it's 1939 all of them are weak, very different from their 1944 version.

Then together with Greece 2020 there's China 2020, Turkey 2020, Poland 2020, Romania 2020, Bulgaria 2020, Hungary 2020, and some others.
The above is a force able to easily destroy the 1939 powers: 1939 powers will never reach 1944 level.

To better understand the difference between 1939 and 1944:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War ... production

In 1939 USSR produced 10,000 planes, in 1944 they produced 40,000 planes.
In 1939 Nazi Germany produced 8,000 planes, in 1944 they produced 39,000 planes.

The numbers in the 1939 column are NOT going to improve in 1940 and they aren't going to reach 1944 levels.
Because the 2020 powers are more than able to destroy all enemy infrastructures, while the 1939 powers cannot destroy the 2020 infrastructures.

After months (not years, just months) the 1939 powers have no fuel, no airplanes, no tanks, they even lack rifles and bullets.
At such point USSR can send 20,000,000 soldiers but all of them have from zero to few bullets, many of them don't even have firearms, a lot of them don't have proper boots.
The above can't pass through Romania:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... #Artillery
Their artillery and machine guns are already enough, then they have modern airplanes, etc.
That's considering just only Romania as it is right now, but in the scenario China is sending help: China can just embark 200 rocket launchers, outdated, and 5000 machine guns, outdated, and send it to Romania. Those weapons are "outdated" in 2020, but it's equipment from 1960-1970 and it's a monster against the above Soviet force.
Last edited by Chessmistress on Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
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affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
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AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
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Chessmistress
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5101
Founded: Mar 16, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Chessmistress » Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:04 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:A 2.0 version of this thread (with new alliances) is underway and scheduled for launch in a few weeks-1 month, taking into account all constructive criticisms.

I want to take the time to thank everyone for contributing. In the meantime, please carry on.


I suggest to read this, it's four books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar_ ... rst_series

It's very close to your scenario: the aliens have weapons roughly comparable to Earth 2020.
They invade Earth in May 1942.
The major difference is that Earth 1942 it's not Earth 1939: all the nations have already mobilized their production power, furthermore here the enemy is clueless aliens, not other humans.
OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Latorik
Envoy
 
Posts: 270
Founded: Nov 20, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Latorik » Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:07 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:So you’re asking what would happen if every single superpower had one goal in mind, and that goal was to destroy Greece? In that case Greece would get destroyed, big time, it wouldn’t at all matter that they had modern equipment. Greece wouldn’t not stand a chance.


No, in IM scenario there aren't superpowers against Greece 2020:
There are Soviet Union 1939, Nazi Germany 1939, British Empire 1939, French Empire 1939, Japan 1939, Italy 1939. Nothing more.
Since it's 1939 all of them are weak, very different from their 1944 version.

Then together with Greece 2020 there's China 2020, Turkey 2020, Poland 2020, Romania 2020, Bulgaria 2020, Hungary 2020, and some others.
The above is a force able to easily destroy the 1939 powers: 1939 powers will never reach 1944 level.

To better understand the difference between 1939 and 1944:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War ... production

In 1939 USSR produced 10,000 planes, in 1944 they produced 40,000 planes.
In 1939 Nazi Germany produced 8,000 planes, in 1944 they produced 39,000 planes.

The numbers in the 1939 column are NOT going to improve in 1940 and they aren't going to reach 1944 levels.
Because the 2020 powers are more than able to destroy all enemy infrastructures, while the 1939 powers cannot destroy the 2020 infrastructures.

After months (not years, just months) the 1939 powers have no fuel, no airplanes, no tanks, they even lack rifles and bullets.
At such point USSR can send 20,000,000 soldiers but all of them have from zero to few bullets, many of them don't even have firearms, a lot of them don't have proper boots.
The above can't pass through Romania:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... #Artillery
Their artillery and machine guns are already enough, then they have modern airplanes, etc.
That's considering just only Romania as it is right now, but in the scenario China is sending help: China can just embark 200 rocket launchers, outdated, and 5000 machine guns, outdated, and send it to Romania. Those weapons are "outdated" in 2020, but it's equipment from 1960-1970 and it's a monster against the above Soviet force.

While I won't dispute the fact that china is a huge game changer here IM seems to have essentially bloodlusted all of these major powers into wanting to destroy greece so I can see their production output increasing greatly compared to OTL

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37787
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:22 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:A 2.0 version of this thread (with new alliances) is underway and scheduled for launch in a few weeks-1 month, taking into account all constructive criticisms.

I want to take the time to thank everyone for contributing. In the meantime, please carry on.


I suggest to read this, it's four books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar_ ... rst_series

It's very close to your scenario: the aliens have weapons roughly comparable to Earth 2020.
They invade Earth in May 1942.
The major difference is that Earth 1942 it's not Earth 1939: all the nations have already mobilized their production power, furthermore here the enemy is clueless aliens, not other humans.


Thank you. I will be taking a look. :)

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Stellar Colonies
Senator
 
Posts: 3617
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:29 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
I suggest to read this, it's four books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar_ ... rst_series

It's very close to your scenario: the aliens have weapons roughly comparable to Earth 2020.
They invade Earth in May 1942.
The major difference is that Earth 1942 it's not Earth 1939: all the nations have already mobilized their production power, furthermore here the enemy is clueless aliens, not other humans.


Thank you. I will be taking a look. :)

Accuracy aside, they're not too bad aside from Turtledove's quirks like repetitiveness and occasional obsession with inserting weird sex stuff.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.
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