Operation Artemis

[Latorik]

The presence of China turns this into a stomp into the other direction.

All they have to do is slap some fuel tanks on their J-20s and drop precision guided munitions on just about every capitol in the world

even without nukes if you add china this turns into another stomp lmao

J-20 would never get to those world capitals, because it has the combat range of a WWII medium bomber.

Moscow is just within striking range of an H-6

edit: Keep in mind the maths I did for that were kinda shit so take it with a grain of salt

But you have a point, given the fact its just about every 1939 superpower and nukes have been forbidden I dont see the Hellenic alliance pulling this one out

Casualties are going to be horrendous for the enemy team given China has basically unparalleled air and naval superiority but given its essentially all of europe I imagine even China's massive manpower is going to get worn down eventually

[Horizonte Mexico]

In addition, why would China support Greece unless the plan all along was to take over the world?

[Latorik]

In addition, why would China support Greece unless the plan all along was to take over the world?

because IM said they were for this incredibly weird scenario

all of their threads tend to be a little funky

[Neanderthaland]

You can pretend this is what you meant when you said "21st century tactics" all you want. But you're not convincing anyone. We all know you weren't talking about technology or equipment.

And we also know you don't know anything about what you were actually talking about.

I don’t have to pretend. It’s dictionary-supported.

Nobody means technology when they say "tactics." Including you. If you say that's what you meant, then you are lying. You didn't. Arguing about this only makes you look desperate.

[Infected Mushroom]

I don’t have to pretend. It’s dictionary-supported.

Nobody means technology when they say "tactics." Including you. If you say that's what you meant, then you are lying. You didn't. Arguing about this only makes you look desperate.

You don’t have to agree with me but I wholeheartedly believe in the technological and tactical superiority of the 21st century powers winning the day. I fully expect our weapons and tactics to prevail and that we can better adapt to any contingency. Once you factor in the USA and China, we’ve really got a population and production advantage over time. If Israel could prevail in the Six Day War, we’ve definitely got this.

There’s also an intangible factor that I think will play out in our favor, 21st century people approach problems differently, more efficiently, more open-mindedly, and with more creativity. The billion+ from today teleported to the 1930s-1940s are essentially part of an ideologically, socially, and intellectually superior society. Look past the numbers and the weapons, and the Greek side still has these intangibles going for them.

Add in the jet fighters, modern tanks, modern artillery, missiles, body armor etc. If we play it smart, we can and will win this.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Nobody means technology when they say "tactics." Including you. If you say that's what you meant, then you are lying. You didn't. Arguing about this only makes you look desperate.

You don’t have to agree with me but I wholeheartedly believe in the technological and tactical superiority of the 21st century powers winning the day. I fully expect our weapons and tactics to prevail and that we can better adapt to any contingency. Once you factor in the USA and China, we’ve really got a population and production advantage over time. If Israel could prevail in the Six Day War, we’ve definitely got this.

There’s also an intangible factor that I think will play out in our favor, 21st century people approach problems differently, more efficiently, more open-mindedly, and with more creativity. The billion+ from today teleported to the 1930s-1940s are essentially part of an ideologically, socially, and intellectually superior society. Look past the numbers and the weapons, and the Greek side still has these intangibles going for them.

Add in the jet fighters, modern tanks, modern artillery, missiles, body armor etc. If we play it smart, we can and will win this.

There was a vast amount of things that let Israel win the Six Day War and pretty much none of them are applicable to this situation.

[Kannap]

In addition, why would China support Greece unless the plan all along was to take over the world?

Because IM believed Greece could win it alone and when everybody pointed out that's asinine, IM had to give them allies to save face.

The original OP featured modern Greece facing the WW2 superpowers alone without allies.

[New Baltenstein]

Logistics hasn’t changed and neither has the landmass.

The USA is also fucked in the ass.

USA is basically immortal in WWII in its ability to replace all losses

Why, I wonder, do you think the US abstained from entering the War for 2 years, needed another year before making landfall in Africa, another year before invading Italy, yet another year before invading France and finally shied away from invading the Japanese main islands, dropping nukes on them instead? After all, if they could so easily have drowned the Axis in infinite bodies, why didn't they?

[New Baltenstein]

There’s also an intangible factor that I think will play out in our favor, 21st century people approach problems differently, more efficiently, more open-mindedly, and with more creativity. The billion+ from today teleported to the 1930s-1940s are essentially part of an ideologically, socially, and intellectually superior society.

As someone who has actually served in the 21st century Greek armed forces as part of his conscription obligations, let me assure you that absolutely no one there thinks that your average smartphone obsessed only child brat that would make the hastily conscripted rank and file of the 21st century Greek Armed forces is in any way "the superior soldier" or "superior human being" compared to someone who grew up in the 20ies and 30ies

Besides: why do you keep bringing up stuff like "open-mindedness", "ethnic prejudices" and other social considerations when your entire premise makes no social or intellectual sense to begin with? Your scenario is based upon the assumption that all societies of all the great powers of the 40ies became a giant alien hivemind that wants to exterminate Greece for no reason whatsoever. ALL considerations about stuff like comparing problem-solving abilities, strategic thinking and the like are already obsolete because of the premise alone. You have a single minded drone horde that's several hundred millions strong - human ways of outsmarting other humans do obviously not apply here.

[The Two Jerseys]

J-20 would never get to those world capitals, because it has the combat range of a WWII medium bomber.

Moscow is just within striking range of an H-6

edit: Keep in mind the maths I did for that were kinda shit so take it with a grain of salt

But you have a point, given the fact its just about every 1939 superpower and nukes have been forbidden I dont see the Hellenic alliance pulling this one out

Casualties are going to be horrendous for the enemy team given China has basically unparalleled air and naval superiority but given its essentially all of europe I imagine even China's massive manpower is going to get worn down eventually

It's within striking range on a one-way trip. If you want to get home, their range is only 1100 miles.

[Chessmistress]

I want to specify: I'm answering to this scenario:

Please consider the following hypothetical:

It is 1939. Greece is different. You’ve suddenly got modern 2020 Greece, it’s infrastructure, military, population, production + all NSGers (now speaking Greek).

The following countries are determined to wipe modern Greece from the map.

Nazi Germany
Fascist Italy
British Empire
French Empire
Soviet Union
Japanese Empire

No other country can join the war. Every side will fight until victory conditions are met, no matter casualties. No nukes, biological and chemical weapons.

The following countries will now fight on the side of Greece:
Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, China, United States of America Every other country on the Greek side except for the USA has their 2020 infrastructure, population and weapons based on the regions they control.

Allied victory conditions: Take over Athens.
Greek victory conditions: Hold Berlin, Moscow and Paris

Greece has its 21st century weapons but has its weaknesses in population and resources. You are required to fight in this war on the Greek side in a direct combat role and you can choose whatever placement you want (and get good training for it).

Can Greece win? Or will they get overrun?

Not to some other scenario I didn't see, the only OP version I saw is the above.

"Logistics matters" said someone.

Indeed: both USSR and Nazi Germany can't even approach Greece, geography matters: there's Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Poland and Hungary, all with modern weapons. Just check a map.
Romania have oil.
Turkey is gonna taking the Caucasus and by so the USSR is without fuel. They don't even need to take it: the oilfields can be destroyed by Turkish planes.
And this is 1939, not 1944: the production of the 1939 powers is very low and it's not going to grow. No fuel, no rifles, no bullets.
Chinese cargos cannot be stopped from arriving in Greece: 5-6 modern frigates (China have dozens) can easily defeat the whole British and French fleets.
Japan is under the heavy attack of conventional missiles incoming from China: China have an enormous amount of "outdated" missiles - those "outdated" missiles are sci-fi for 1939 Japan. Japanese industry is gonna collapsing due the sea blockade imposed by China, in a matter of a less than a year Japanese people don't even have food - and China don't even need to invade them.

The only real clash could be between Italy 1939 and Greece 2020: Greece 1940 defeated Italy 1940 and Italy had Albania, now there's Albania 2020 on Greek side...for a clash we have to suppose that Italy 1939 is able to succesfully invade Albania 2020 and this is already hard...

[Chessmistress]

Your error guys is to think about 1939 powers undergoing the same growth they had in real history during 1939-44: this is not going to happen because the war starts in 1939.
Nazi Germany is without oil from Romania from the very start, within 48 hours the USSR don't have the oil from Caucasus since the oilfields have been totally destroyed by Turkish planes.
Japan is done since day 1 due China: within a week Japanese "sea power" is reduced to people swimming with a katana in the mouth, after some months they don't even swim so much because there's no food enough.
2020 submarines are gonna destroying everything in the Mediterranean sea, I don't even need to check how many have Greece and Turkey. They don't even need to move the rest of the fleet: there's Chinese satellites giving precise informations. Theoretically there's even Galileo, since it's European and therefore Greek too and it pertains to Greece 2020, but let's suppose there's no Galileo and still the Greeks have Chinese navigation (I have too, in my phone ).

[Infected Mushroom]

Your error guys is to think about 1939 powers undergoing the same growth they had in real history during 1939-44: this is not going to happen because the war starts in 1939.
Nazi Germany is without oil from Romania from the very start, within 48 hours the USSR don't have the oil from Caucasus since the oilfields have been totally destroyed by Turkish planes.
Japan is done since day 1 due China: within a week Japanese "sea power" is reduced to people swimming with a katana in the mouth, after some months they don't even swim so much because there's no food enough.
2020 submarines are gonna destroying everything in the Mediterranean sea, I don't even need to check how many have Greece and Turkey. They don't even need to move the rest of the fleet: there's Chinese satellites giving precise informations. Theoretically there's even Galileo, since it's European and therefore Greek too and it pertains to Greece 2020, but let's suppose there's no Galileo and still the Greeks have Chinese navigation (I have too, in my phone ).

A very important point indeed.

I'll also add that in addition to Team 1930s production dropping due to the vulnerability of the Caucasus and other areas to long range bombing by jet fighters and cruise missiles (they won't have 3+ years to hit those peaks),

the USA's massive production is in this case is going towards Team 2020. As is China, 2020's number one top manufacturer of goods and one of the modern world's largest economies.

Soviet Union also wouldn't be getting Lend-Lease, and neither will Great Britain.

[Infected Mushroom]

I want to specify: I'm answering to this scenario:

Please consider the following hypothetical:

It is 1939. Greece is different. You’ve suddenly got modern 2020 Greece, it’s infrastructure, military, population, production + all NSGers (now speaking Greek).

The following countries are determined to wipe modern Greece from the map.

Nazi Germany
Fascist Italy
British Empire
French Empire
Soviet Union
Japanese Empire

No other country can join the war. Every side will fight until victory conditions are met, no matter casualties. No nukes, biological and chemical weapons.

The following countries will now fight on the side of Greece:
Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, China, United States of America Every other country on the Greek side except for the USA has their 2020 infrastructure, population and weapons based on the regions they control.

Allied victory conditions: Take over Athens.
Greek victory conditions: Hold Berlin, Moscow and Paris

Greece has its 21st century weapons but has its weaknesses in population and resources. You are required to fight in this war on the Greek side in a direct combat role and you can choose whatever placement you want (and get good training for it).

Can Greece win? Or will they get overrun?

Not to some other scenario I didn't see, the only OP version I saw is the above.

"Logistics matters" said someone.

Indeed: both USSR and Nazi Germany can't even approach Greece, geography matters: there's Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Poland and Hungary, all with modern weapons. Just check a map.
Romania have oil.
Turkey is gonna taking the Caucasus and by so the USSR is without fuel. They don't even need to take it: the oilfields can be destroyed by Turkish planes.
And this is 1939, not 1944: the production of the 1939 powers is very low and it's not going to grow. No fuel, no rifles, no bullets.
Chinese cargos cannot be stopped from arriving in Greece: 5-6 modern frigates (China have dozens) can easily defeat the whole British and French fleets.
Japan is under the heavy attack of conventional missiles incoming from China: China have an enormous amount of "outdated" missiles - those "outdated" missiles are sci-fi for 1939 Japan. Japanese industry is gonna collapsing due the sea blockade imposed by China, in a matter of a less than a year Japanese people don't even have food - and China don't even need to invade them.

The only real clash could be between Italy 1939 and Greece 2020: Greece 1940 defeated Italy 1940 and Italy had Albania, now there's Albania 2020 on Greek side...for a clash we have to suppose that Italy 1939 is able to succesfully invade Albania 2020 and this is already hard...

That's a very well-articulated point. A lot of posters have been arguing as if Greece were next door to the Soviet Union. The reality is that there's an endless array of insurmountable modern weapons in the way fielded by Greek allies. And as you say, Team 2020's Air Force and navy will be unbeatable with its tech advantages. This isn't even factoring in the USA being on team 2020.

[Chessmistress]

Your error guys is to think about 1939 powers undergoing the same growth they had in real history during 1939-44: this is not going to happen because the war starts in 1939.
Nazi Germany is without oil from Romania from the very start, within 48 hours the USSR don't have the oil from Caucasus since the oilfields have been totally destroyed by Turkish planes.
Japan is done since day 1 due China: within a week Japanese "sea power" is reduced to people swimming with a katana in the mouth, after some months they don't even swim so much because there's no food enough.
2020 submarines are gonna destroying everything in the Mediterranean sea, I don't even need to check how many have Greece and Turkey. They don't even need to move the rest of the fleet: there's Chinese satellites giving precise informations. Theoretically there's even Galileo, since it's European and therefore Greek too and it pertains to Greece 2020, but let's suppose there's no Galileo and still the Greeks have Chinese navigation (I have too, in my phone ).

A very important point indeed.

I'll also add that in addition to Team 1930s production dropping due to the vulnerability of the Caucasus and other areas to long range bombing by jet fighters and cruise missiles (they won't have 3+ years to hit those peaks),

the USA's massive production is in this case is going towards Team 2020. As is China, 2020's number one top manufacturer of goods and one of the modern world's largest economies.

Soviet Union also wouldn't be getting Lend-Lease, and neither will Great Britain.

USA 1939 is useless for 2020 powers, perhaps apart from providing some raw materials but they're too far from the theatre, so it's not economically wise to get materials from them.
China already got Malaysia oilfields (British Empire), there's no need to get oil from USA.
Turkey is gonna getting Iraq and Kuwait (both British), not just the Caucasus.

[Ifreann]

insurmountable modern weapons

You keep saying things like this, but you've made it clear repeatedly that you don't know the first thing about any of the weapons in question. You won't even look anything up yourself. I could tell you that the United States issues hundred year old weapons to their troops, do you have any idea if that's true or not? Are you going to try and check?

[Chessmistress]

insurmountable modern weapons

You keep saying things like this, but you've made it clear repeatedly that you don't know the first thing about any of the weapons in question. You won't even look anything up yourself. I could tell you that the United States issues hundred year old weapons to their troops, do you have any idea if that's true or not? Are you going to try and check?

Good, so the Bulgarians can send this equipment from their museum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ,_Bulgaria
Check the missiles and the aircrafts...

[Latorik]

modern weapons are great and all but the majority of the hellenic allies here have literally no way of effectively reproducing the equipment they expunge.

Beyond maybe china and turkey

[Neanderthaland]

Nobody means technology when they say "tactics." Including you. If you say that's what you meant, then you are lying. You didn't. Arguing about this only makes you look desperate.

You don’t have to agree with me but I wholeheartedly believe in the technological and tactical superiority of the 21st century powers winning the day.

Your belief is not in question. Your knowledge is. Namely: you don't have any.

You talk about "tactical superiority of the 21st century." But you can't tell me what's better about 21st century tactics without changing the subject to technology. Because you don't know anything about tactics.

Don't seem to know a lot about technology either, if I'm being honest. Like that time you thought that modern soldiers could turn invisible.

[New Baltenstein]

the USA's massive production is in this case is going towards Team 2020. As is China, 2020's number one top manufacturer of goods and one of the modern world's largest economies.

Said economy would instantly collapse as you didn't bother to beam their customers and trade partners back to the 30ies with them.

[The Two Jerseys]

the USA's massive production is in this case is going towards Team 2020. As is China, 2020's number one top manufacturer of goods and one of the modern world's largest economies.

Said economy would instantly collapse as you didn't bother to beam their customers and trade partners back to the 30ies with them.

You mean to tell me that modern China has absolutely nothing that 1930s America wants?

[Kannap]

Logistics hasn’t changed and neither has the landmass.

The USA is also fucked in the ass.

USA is basically immortal in WWII in its ability to replace all losses

Having USA on your team is like having a god backing you

Hahahahahahahahaha

Oh, you're serious? Let me laugh harder

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

[Kannap]

You can pretend this is what you meant when you said "21st century tactics" all you want. But you're not convincing anyone. We all know you weren't talking about technology or equipment.

And we also know you don't know anything about what you were actually talking about.

I don’t have to pretend. It’s dictionary-supported.

Sure, a tactic is defined as "a device for accomplishing an end," but there leaves some ambiguity there for what exactly the word 'device' implies. This ambiguity, in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, is clarified in the second line of the same entry, rewording the same meaning, but specifically for military: "A method of employing forces in combat."

Here, I would assume that "device" is used as a synonym to "method" - as it can be often so used in the English language.

But while that's the definition of tactic, you've been talking about military tactics, which you may have assumed is just the plural of "tactic," but the English language is a cruel bastard. The same Merriam-Webster dictionary defines tactics as "The science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat" or "the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end"

Either way, the military science of tactics is largely about how you move or manage your troops during combat. It's cool that we have bulletproof vests but that's not a military tactic - nor is telling all your troops to wear bulletproof vests.

So, basically, we're talking about third-generation warfare here. This type of warfare "focuses on using Late modern technology-derived tactics of leveraging speed, stealth, and surprise to bypass the enemy's lines and collapse their forces from the rear. This is the type of warfare we've seen with WW2, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Persian Gulf War, The Iraq War, and the invasion of Afghanistan, among other modern wars. This is the type of warfare we still use today (unless fighting a belligerent that is not a state or non-kinetic warfare, they fall into 4th generation and 5th generation warfare, respectively). Third-generation warfare was the end of the idea that two armies would meet face-to-face in a field somewhere and fight each other head on - this is the type of warfare where opposing combatants attempt to outmaneuver one another to gain the greater advantage.

We saw the first war utilizing these new tactics and strategies of third-generation warfare in World War 2. The Germans' use of blitzkrieg during the invasions of Poland, then France, demonstrated the power of speed and maneuverability instead of static artillery positions or trench defenses. The Germans were quickly able to break through Polish and French defenses via their use of tanks, mechanized infantry, and close air support to capture the rear and gain a greater advantage over their enemies.

This is literally the same tactics we see used today: speed and maneuvering to bypass enemy engagement and collapsing the enemy's defenses by striking deeper and at their rear. You could argue that we have vehicles that move faster now and therefore can accomplish this easier, but "moving faster" isn't a new tactic, it's just doing an old tactic faster. A lot of modern tactics are forms of guerilla warfare, which dates back to prehistoric tribes of people; Sun Tzu would later write about it in his 6th century BC writing, The Art of War.

The thing is, IM, that technology has advanced quite a bit - but tactics haven't changed much since WW2.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Also, IM, you talk about technology a lot but why aren't you factoring in reverse engineering? There are very few modern military concepts that are entirely unknown to the world of 1939. Body armor, jet engines, helicopters, computers etc etc all existed in some form already. It's entirely plausible that after rolling over weaker nations in this scenario (Poland, for example) that the Soviets and Germans who are working together would have large amounts of captured equipment to study and revolutionize their own understanding of these things. They won't jump right up to 2022 tech instantly, but especially with that general wartime drive to innovate as fast as possible they're going to move up in the technological world much faster than OTL.

[Ifreann]

Also, IM, you talk about technology a lot but why aren't you factoring in reverse engineering?

Because then his team might lose again and he'd have to rewrite the rules again.